Orions

I was just wondering, are the Orion Colonies Federation Members?

I mean they are smack in the middle of the modern day Federation and most of their Neighbours are Federation associated, so I think it is very unlikely that they would just stay out of it.

I usually put them in the Federation, having joined after the Treaty of Khitomer do to outside pressure. Of course they are still a roughish race, but that’s just on individual basis, not as a whole..

LUG claims they are a Neutral Race, Interplay and FASA (as far das I know) say there are Federation Members. Cannon + Decipher leave it open…

The pirates in TOS were independent anyway, so they don’t really count.

The Orion Syndicate is on the other hand is a criminal network, so does not have much to do with the political associations of the race as a whole…

I know its usually up to the Narrator to make them on or the other, I was just curios what other people think.

FASA never said they were Fed Members, quite the opposite in fact. In FASA the Orions controlled a small volume of space near the Klingon border and "traded" (smuggled, pirated, etc. etc.) throughout most of known space.

In the Star Fleet Universe (Star Fleet Battles, Federation and Empire, Prime Directive games plus some of the background for the computer game Star Fleet Command) they were Federation members but had a clause in their membership treaty that allowed them to remain neutral during the General War.

In both the FASA and SFU versions the pirates may or may not be under the orders of the Orion government. Few people know and those who do know won't say.

Being surrounded by the Federation but staying independent could be a very attractive proposition. You're protected from, e.g. Romulan, invasion by the surrounding Federation territory but you don't have to toe the line with regards to Federation taxes, laws, morality, etc.

Thx for the FASA correction wasn’t sure on that ^^

Well there would be certain advantages to being Federation Members just as well…

Mutual Protection from the Klingon Empire for example, which as far as I know is basically sitting next to the Orions.

Protection from Federation Members (Andorians come to mind). Of course its unlikely that a Federation Member would start a war with someone, but non the less always possible.

Free Trade with Federation Members. You can actually trade with them without having to shoot your way past the Customs Fleet ..

Technological Exchange (at least the stuff they have not stolen by now) :rolleyes:

Voice in the Federation Council

They can still keep their “Free Traders”. I mean no one can blame the Government for that a hot-shoot merchant or pirate does.. ;)

You still keep your local independence and laws. You might have to adjust them a bit to Federation Standards, but they can just say they are in a permanent “transition period”, or just ably the ones that don’t cause you problems, and just loose the other laws in a lazy underhand manner… :D

At the beginning of my Orion Ships thread, I posted a (very) brief take on what the Orion Colonies are.

And, since the first post isn't clear, no, I don't think the Colonies are Federation members.

This is also touched on in the LUG supplement All Our Yesterdays, which deals with the history (and to some degree future) of the Trek universe.

Essentially, LUG's take is that the Orions are a very old civilization, that has risen and fallen several times -- depending on the historian, the present iteration is anywhere from the tenth to the thirteenth.

Most of them, in fact, are not criminals -- but they wish no hand on their rudder save their own. For this reason, I would say they are not members of the Federation. That's not to say that individuals couldn't be members of Starfleet -- anyone with the qualifications (which would include not being a crook) to enter the Academy and who can then graduate would receive a commission. Such individuals might have a rougher time in their career, as their natural free-spirits would tend to make them chafe at the regulations - somewhat like the Maquis who joined Janeway's crew, in the early episodes.

They shouldn't need protection from any Federation member, as the Federation would likely frown on members unilaterally declaring war, even on non-members. The Klingons are unlikely to declare war on them without good cause, as this would potentially upset their good relations with the Federation, something they probably value more now that Martok is the chancellor and Worf an ambassador (both had good experiences with the Federation).

My view is that Federation members can freely trade with non-members, anything that is not expressly forbidden by Federation law (a short list, since in my view the Federation is a weak central authority that mostly allows members to make their own fates, except where this would cause harm to other members).

I would imagine there are many inhabited worlds within "Federation space" that aren't Federation members. Some by choice, some because they don't meet the standards for entry, and some because they're not sufficiently advanced.

In a few episodes of TNG and others they have mentioned a 'federation protectorate' - which I interpret as someone that the Federation will stand up for, either because they fear they will be exploited by their neighbours, or because they have some kind of treaty (in a sense the Klingons would be a kind of proteectorate, so long as the Federation in sinvited according to their prime directive)

So in that sense I think there could be potential for allot of Orion worlds not to be members but still have co-dependency relationships - so long as the government met certain criteria (pre-warp species wouldn't of course be held up to such stringient criteria!) such as no slavery / dictatorships etc. and even then, if they begged for help during an invasion from an agressive species I can't see the Federation turning them down - unless they had a very good reason not too - like they were fighting a Borg armada that week :D

While the Federation has VAST territory not all of it actually consists of anything but tracts of empty (in terms of inhabited worlds) space. From the various cartograpjhy atlasses and maps out there I suspect there are actually big gouts of territory and big holes too, where people aren't interested or opposed or not advanced enough yet, so it's quite possible they aren't affiliated and enjoy their status as it would stand as such.

For some interesting stuff on Orions, see this website:

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Rampart/8067/index.html

Cheers

Tas

(I have read it fully, but it looks interesting enough. I am not sure how much Canon stuff has been included)

Well as always - there is extremelly little 'canon' stuff for the orions AT ALL - except that green woman in the opening credits :D

In FASA there were a few Orion-populated worlds that were Fed members, but most were not. The Orion Colonies had most of the major benefits of Fed membership without the restrictions. TOS-wise they were protected from the Klingons simply by being a big salient in the Fed boarder. The Federation wasn't going to let the Klingons have much influence that deep in Fed territory... and if the Feds get too obnoxious, just cuddle up to the Klingons a tad, give away some Romulan Ale, a few visits by green slave women to influential bedchambers... etc.

Likewise, as an independant sovriegn power they control their own space... Klingon and Federation warships must ask permission to enter their space, for example. In FASA Trek there was even a small Orion Space Navy, mostly a social organization for wealthy children to play soldier with leased ships, but with hints that this merely camoflaged a much more effective organization. In FASA the Orions had the most efficient drive, shield and weapons technology in the game... they just couldn't (or didn't) build very big ships, but an Orion Class V ship (size of a Klingon BOP) built as a pure warship would kick the snot out of anything up to 3 times it's size from the Feds or Klingons... and 3 of them would handle a Constitution Class easily... I've done it.

As for trade, there's no need to shoot anything anywhere... just make up a trade treaty like everyone else.

It's been mentioned in several products over the years that there are many starfaring non-member worlds with the boarders of the Federation. For most signifigant pressure can be brought to bear to join, but the Orions already have technology as good or better than the Federation, and they have access to the larger galaxy via the Fed/ Klingon Neutral Zone in TOS, and it would be a small thing to negotiate in the TNG era for traders and diplomatic vessels.

In short, the Orions are MUCH better off as erstwhile allies/ trading partners/ thorns in the side of the Federation than as full members.

Comparing TOS and TNG technology is a problem in that TOS Technology (with respect to the Federation and Klingons) was FAR less advanced. Yes technically Orions can steal but it doesn't mean they always succeed!

I think that generally speaking that the Orions were an ancient starfaring culture who have a derth of ancient trading secrets and lost knowledge that gave them easy access to reasonably advanced technology but then in terms of trade the Federation would have eventually outstripped their range of influence (the federation by the 24th century was HUGE, passing Orion borders) - and compared to how many other species are portrayed the Federation technology rose in leaps and bounds and is probably the most advanced of all of the political powers in the area. The Klingons wouldn't bother with the Orions (in the 24th c) unless they did something to them in their teritory and then I suspect it would be swift punishment.

It's hard to say weather the Orions would have kept pace with technology or not, as they don't seem like inventors or technologists (much like the Ferengi, but then they bought their technology :D) and are quite a stale decadant culture.

Of course all of this is really conjecture as there isn't much TNG era FASA.

Quote:

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It's hard to say weather the Orions would have kept pace with technology or not, as they don't seem like inventors or technologists (much like the Ferengi, but then they bought their technology ) and are quite a stale decadant culture.

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Considering how well they modify their ship, they are not likely to be completely unable to handle technology, but yes I also think they are not to much of a researches race, but then they trade a lot with the Klingons and Federation, so they can most likely get there hands on up to date stuff. Much like the Ferengie. I mean they might not develop the things themselves, but seem very adept at using what other people build, and modifying it for their own uses.

I agree they properly lost the edge they had during the TOS Era, which I never thought was that big anyway. Ok they had very good Warp Engines, but their Tactical Systems were average, and especially their weapons not to great, unless they used Federation (The Wanderer had Federation torpedo systems as far as I know) or Klingon Stuff.

A modern (and likely modified) Orion Blockade Runner could properly non the less, fight off similar sized Klingon, Federation or Cardassian Ships, and do fine as Pirate/Trade Vessel. A bit like Ferengie Marauders, just smaller.

From a Previous Thread

Of course all of this is really conjecture as there isn't much TNG era FASA.

I beg to differ......there may be no official FASA TNG stuff, but plenty of unofficial, including our very successful 'series'

:)

Cheers

Tas

(Just being picky!)

Oh Tas, do you work for FASA ? Or publish material for them ? No! :D

Hence there is no stuff from FASA - just being picky ! :D

Anyway yes of course there's TONS of fan produced material but for the average shmo it's so hard to pick what to use and what not too! They are all contradictory and follow different themse that the authors chose. 'Official' game products are by no means that different when they deal with beyond canon subject matter, but the point is you have something hard to chose from.

I've made up tons of stuff about the orions for my recent campaign - including all sorts of locations and technology - and it probably conflicts with most of the other stuff :D

OH and NB Redwood, yes I actually used allot of that material from that thread, but of course I threw away the bits I didn't like and changed what made no sense !!!

Tas 2, Tobian: Where have you been getting you information from there were two (count them 1...2...) books from FASA on the TNG. The TNG Officers manual, and the First Year Sourcebook. In the Officers Manual they give a full page of information on the Orions, consisting of 2 paragraphs and a large piture...:D

I know I'm of no use tonight...but I'm trying to have fun.:D :p

Oh, Tas II, I like the link you provided, interesting reading. Do you know who wrote it?