Romulan ranking conventions (?)

The other day I was looking at Romulan ranking conventions according to both FASA and LUG and I was trying to compare them from what we know from the TV shows.

FASA's system is :

Equatoriam
Secundam
Trinam
Centurion
Sub-commander
Commander

Equatoriam is the basic rank that all hold when doing their military service. Then the equivalent of NCOs/junior officers are secundam/trinam. Then centurions act as dept heads and sometimes 1st officer IIRC. Sub-commanders are the equivalent of Starfleet captains and commanders = admirals.

LUG has the following convention:

Uhlan
Sub-lieutenant
Lieutenant
Sub-commander
Commander
Centurion
Admiral

Ulhans = Starfleet ensigns. Sub-commanders and commanders are roughly = dept heads. Centurions = captains, etc.

Yet from what we've seen in TOS, TNG and Nemesis *all* ship commanders were all sub-commanders or commanders. The only centurion that I can recall is the ship's first officer in 'Balance of Terror'. Then in 'The Enterprise Incident' the female Romulan officer in command of 3 ships is a 'commander' and her direct subordinate is a 'sub-commander'.

The fast-forward to TNG in the episode 'The Neutral Zone' where we catch the first glimpse of TNG-era Romulans. The two officers on board the Warbird are titled 'commander' and 'sub-commander'.

Then in 'Contagion' the Warbird's captain is 'Sub-commander Taris'. Later in 'The Defector' Tomalak's rank is established as 'commander' and Jarok reveals himself to be a Romulan 'admiral'.

In 'Data's Day' I'm not 100% sure but I that the Warbird's captain and the Romulan spy posing as a Vulcan dignitary arr introduced as 'commander and sub-commander'.

Sela is also called a 'commander' but her 2nd in command is called some gorund force rank like 'major' or 'general'.

In 'Face of the Enemy' Toreth is called a 'commander', N'Vek is the ist officer and is called a 'sub-commander' but Troi's Tal Shiar agent is a 'major'. Then in 'The Pegasus' the Warbird's captain is a 'commander'.

Finally in DS9's 'The Die is Cast' there's a Tal Shiar 'colonel', and in 'Nemesis' Donatra was a 'commander'.

This is far from an exhaustive list but we se a common pattern emerging. It seems to me that FASA was more on target than LUG was.

So we have no idea what the lower ranks are, but the mentions of 'commander' and 'sub-commander' seem to pop up regularly as being the equivalent of commodore/fleet captain (officers in charge of small fleets/squadrons), captain and 1st officer. The most senior oficers are 'admirals'.Ground forces/intelligence personel use the amry's ranking conventions such as 'major', 'colonel' or 'general'.

How about merging FASA and LUG's conventions together with a few twists? Here's what I had mind:

TROOPER - basic rank
LEAD TROOPER - NCO
UHLAN (I like the term, sounds neat) - ensign/senior NCO (backbone of the fleet)
SUB-LIEUTENANT
LIEUTENANT
CENTURION - somewhat equivalent to Starfleet Lt CMDRs; dept heads.
SUB-COMMANDER - 1st officers to captains of single vessels for less than X years
COMMANDER - captains of single vessels for more than X years to leaders of small fleets/squadrons
GRAND COMMANDER - equal to Starfleet admiral; often interchanged for the term 'admiral'. For instance, Romulan Grand Commander T'var would introduce herself as 'Admiral T'var' to a Starfleet captain.

Ground forces/Tal Shiar ranks could be :

TROOPER
LEAD TROOPER
UHLAN
SUB-LIEUTENANT
LIEUTENANT
CENTURION
MAJOR
COLONEL
GENERAL

I don't like the terms 'trooper'/'lead trooper' but that's the best I could come up with. what do you think?

My take on the Romulan (and other) rank systems can be found here.

http://www.coldnorth.com/owen/game/s...r/rankcomp.htm

I queried Ross as to why he placed Centurions so high in the hierarchy and he said that it was because in the Roman Legions, a Centurion commanded 100 men. This of course makes no sense, because there were up to 6000 men in a Legion - a Centurion was a semnior enlisted man (in modern terms) with the duties of a modern army Captain. Ehhh.

Kirk disguised himself as a Centurion in "The Enterprise Incident". When he was later questioned by a Romulan near the cloaking device, one got the impression it was not the rank of one who would command a vessel.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Owen E Oulton

I queried Ross as to why he placed Centurions so high in the hierarchy and he said that it was because in the Roman Legions, a Centurion commanded 100 men. This of course makes no sense, because there were up to 6000 men in a Legion - a Centurion was a semnior enlisted man (in modern terms) with the duties of a modern army Captain. Ehhh.

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IIRC, A naval ship commander in the ancient Roman Empire hold the rank of a centurion, though many legion centurion treat him less than his rank.

AFAIC, a Romulan Sub-Commander is equivalent to our Captain in Starfleet. It may be possible that a Commander is either a Fleet Captain, Commodore, or Rear Admiral (lower).

IIRC, A naval ship commander in the ancient Roman Empire hold the rank of a centurion, though many legion centurion treat him less than his rank.

Um, no. Your recollection is faulty. :)

"Fleet commanders were Praefecti from the equestrian class. Naval squadron commanders seem to have been given the title Navarch and ship captains Trierarchs. Each ship also had a Centurio with his Optio and full staff and a detachment of infantry. The dual commands of the Trierarchs and Centurions likely resulted in some friction on board."

Source: http://infohistory.com/rome.shtml

Well in any case we pretty much agree that centurion = ship captain is a flawed concept, especially in light of the overwhelming canon evidence. Owen, I like your ranking chart- you seem to mix FASA and the later canon TNG material together and it works well.

One thing also I was thinking: IIRC in the Roman legions there was also a rank called 'decurion'. Whereas a centurion would lead about 100 men, a 'decurion' would lead a squad of 10. Maybe that rank could be used for Romulan naval and ground junior NCOs.

One more thing: in the ep 'Balance of Terror' the crewman that gets demoted is called 'Decius'. Does that mean anything in Latin? Somehow I have this idea that it is a rank of some sorts and not a name, although the official ST site seems to indicate that 'Decius' was his name, not his rank. :confused:

Ok, what about the Klingons? *All* of their senior officers seem to have "army" ranks (colonel, general, etc). There has been many 'captains' either in TOS, TNG and DS9. But that could be how the Klingons call the master of a ship, not the actual rank. In STIII Kruge was a 'Commander' IIRC. But in TNG onwards I can't recall of seeing any Klingon 'admirals'. Ideas?

Thanks, Snake. I tried to put it together so that it made a logical whole.

Decius is a Roman name - in fact there was an Emperor Decius. (Caius Messius Quintus Trajanus Decius, Roman Emperor 249-251).

All the Klingon ranks on my chart came from The Klingon Dictionary second edition, including the ranks for Commodore and Admiral. The rank of Commodore was actually used in STVI:TUC in the scene in the E-A's transporter room where the Klingon's first beam aboard.

I like that system, Owen - centurions as senior NCOs works well for me. In Balance of Terror, the Centurion seemed to have a good long-term relationship with the Commander - as if they'd been together for a long time. It reminded me of the French Colonel and his cook in one of the Sharpe adventures! (Basically trusted NCO.)

The Klingon ones are quite close to an idea I've been working on for my own game/site - it struck me that the Klingons would be rather opposed to rank structure, as it would not necessarily reflect their "level of honour". Certainly a separation of naval and army ranks would be highly inappropriate, as most Klingons seem to be both warrior and "sailor".

Do you mind if I nick your table for my website, Owen? I'll give you credit!