Am I dumb or is there something strange with the starship combat rules?

Isn't it odd that penetrating the shields have nothing to do with the power of the weapon your using, but only involves your skill in using the weapons?

It's merely a skill test: System Operation (Tactical) + 2d6. Assuming a skill total (skill + attribute bonus) of, say 6 (a beginning character, obviously), that requires a roll of 11 just to cause a scratch on the ship!

Wouldn't it be logical to add the weapon's penetration to the skill test so that a more powerful weapon can more easily penetrate the shields?

I'm not asking about the Threshold rating, that part makes sense.

It's the fact that a Borg Cube (with weapons with Penetration 9/9/9/9) and a Danube-class Runabout (with weapons with Penetration values of 2 or 3), with Worf firing on both ships, would have the same chance of harming the shields!

The fact that the Runabout wouldn't be able to harm the hull as easily as the Cube is beside the point. As I said, I get that part.

So, what I suggest is either:

A) Adding the Penetration value to the skill test to overcome Protection,

or

2) ALWAYS compare Penetration with Threshold no matter how the skill test to overcome Protection went. (it explicitly says under Battle Damage on page 114 in NG, that Protection first be overcome before doing this).

Then again, there's quite possibly

iii) I'm dumb :) (I don't think this is it, though).

/The Gaunt Man has returned!

P.S. Yes, it's been two and a half years since my last post. So what? I'm an infrequent poster, obviously. :D

No, you're not dumb, but the rules are, IMHO.

It's not so strange for a number of reasons.

1) It's an abstract system. The system has more to do with roleplay and characters than it does the actual power of the weapons, so they take priority.

2) you're looking at it from the wrong end.. larger ships have better shields, so in your example the ship being hit is the issue.. someone hitting a Borg shield would have a harder time than hitting a runabout. Also your interpretation is not strictly true... A large, powerful ship with a skilled crew will likelly get additional raises over a small ship with a low shield rating, and will cause more damage to the ship's shields.

Within the abstract, the shield is a deflection bonus - a bonus to the shot missing the ship, because in trek parlance it's a localised spacetime distortion - it changes the geometry of space arround a ship, so that weapons miss it. So why would how powerful your weapons are make a difference to that? If it hits it hits.

That said... You're also missing a critical factor in this too - the maneuver modifiers.. The larger a ship is the greater it's maneuvers are, and warships especially have high tactical bonuses, so relativelly speaking they are more likelly to hit, if not because of their weapon strength, but because in this case, their tactical maneuver bonus.. So in a way how powerful a ship is DOES count, it just doesn't come from it's OV..

So in your example Worf would actually find it much easier to hit anything with a Borg cube than with a Runabout as the Runabout has +0T and a Borg cube has +4T ... why maneuver modifiers happen, are again abstract, but then you can, in part, attribute them to weapon power.

As you say the threshold system is how easily the shields can absorb damage, which is also linked to their strength, so that doesn't need expanding on. However it has to be noted that 1 point of shield damage will always be scored (more per +5 over the protection) irrespective of the threshold. Threshold is how much damage gets THROUGH the shields, to the hull. 2 shots which successfuly hit a Runabout from a Borg cube would destroy the SHIP - who cares about shields! :D

Similarly, you can perform maneuvers which increase your protection.. this goes to show protection is an abstract on how easy you are to hit.. a Runabout has a low protection value but it has a good +2H which it can use to avoid being hit like crazy - which in this unballanced scenario are neccessary and understandable.. a runabout is small and maneuverable! :)

Incidentaly, in the above example, Worf, from the book, would acutally hit the runabout with the Borg Cube, without rolling to hit ( His skill is +10 + Speciality 2, + 4 T bonus = 16) so by only rolling a 3 to hit, he could reduce the ship to 2 points of structure, cause a critical hit, reduce the shield strength by 2, cause a panel to explode in the face of the pilot, stunning him for a minute... and for his second action.... ;)

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Originally Posted by Tobian

It's not so strange for a number of reasons.

1) It's an abstract system. The system has more to do with roleplay and characters than it does the actual power of the weapons, so they take priority.

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I find this a strange sentiment. Role-playing-based starship combat would have involved freeform. The players and Narrator would collectively play out the combat "in-game". I don't see the basis for that in the rules. The rules are obviously there to be used. How to role-play isn't the issue here, I think.

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Originally Posted by Tobian

2) you're looking at it from the wrong end.. larger ships have better shields, so in your example the ship being hit is the issue.. someone hitting a Borg shield would have a harder time than hitting a runabout. Also your interpretation is not strictly true...

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OK, first off, I'll concede that comparing a Runabout with a Borg Cube was kinda stupid on my part... :p The only reason I did it was in an attempt to show how close they are in their Protection value: 14 for the Runabout vs. 18 for the Borg Cube. While Voyager and Enterprise-E have 17.

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Originally Posted by Tobian

A large, powerful ship with a skilled crew will likelly get additional raises over a small ship with a low shield rating, and will cause more damage to the ship's shields.

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Is the T bonus your talking about here? That helps in maneuvers, sure, but it doesn't alter the fact that what weapon you use doesn't matters in disabling the shields. Which is what the Protection value is also used for.

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Originally Posted by Tobian

Within the abstract, the shield is a deflection bonus - a bonus to the shot missing the ship, because in trek parlance it's a localised spacetime distortion - it changes the geometry of space arround a ship, so that weapons miss it. So why would how powerful your weapons are make a difference to that? If it hits it hits.

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I have to disagree here. Protection value is not merely a deflection bonus, it decides the attack's immediate impact on shields, whether they hold or buckle, etc. And this is why I it would make sense to add the Penetration value to overcome Protection.

Otherwise, we get the strange notion that lasers, which Picard says "won't even penetrate our shields!" (note the categorical statement), will be no less able to penetrate shields than phasers.

(this is obviously not a problem, since the Narrator would simply say that lasers CAN'T penetrate modern shields, but from a strict-rules interpretation, they would still be able to, but only IF they were fired by someone with high skill in handling the weapons. You'll have to admit that this clearly shows weirdness in the rules! :) )

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Originally Posted by Tobian

That said... You're also missing a critical factor in this too - the maneuver modifiers.. The larger a ship is the greater it's maneuvers are, and warships especially have high tactical bonuses, so relativelly speaking they are more likelly to hit, if not because of their weapon strength, but because in this case, their tactical maneuver bonus.. So in a way how powerful a ship is DOES count, it just doesn't come from it's OV..

So in your example Worf would actually find it much easier to hit anything with a Borg cube than with a Runabout as the Runabout has +0T and a Borg cube has +4T ... why maneuver modifiers happen, are again abstract, but then you can, in part, attribute them to weapon power.

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I had actually completely missed the T bonuses. Thanks! This'll help.

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Originally Posted by Tobian

As you say the threshold system is how easily the shields can absorb damage, which is also linked to their strength, so that doesn't need expanding on. However it has to be noted that 1 point of shield damage will always be scored (more per +5 over the protection) irrespective of the threshold. Threshold is how much damage gets THROUGH the shields, to the hull. 2 shots which successfuly hit a Runabout from a Borg cube would destroy the SHIP - who cares about shields! :D

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But only IF the shields have been affected (ie. if the skill roll has been higher than the Protection rating). Penetration/Threshold doesn't enter into it until then, according to the written rules.

And this obviously takes us right back to my original point, that the weapon (wheteher Type I or Type XII phaser, or something else entirely) has the same effect on shield efficiency. This just doesn't make sense.

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Originally Posted by Tobian

Similarly, you can perform maneuvers which increase your protection.. this goes to show protection is an abstract on how easy you are to hit.. a Runabout has a low protection value but it has a good +2H which it can use to avoid being hit like crazy - which in this unballanced scenario are neccessary and understandable.. a runabout is small and maneuverable! :)

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Originally Posted by Tobian

Incidentaly, in the above example, Worf, from the book, would acutally hit the runabout with the Borg Cube, without rolling to hit ( His skill is +10 + Speciality 2, + 4 T bonus = 16) so by only rolling a 3 to hit, he could reduce the ship to 2 points of structure, cause a critical hit, reduce the shield strength by 2, cause a panel to explode in the face of the pilot, stunning him for a minute... and for his second action.... ;)

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And I'll just once again point out that I shouldn't have those two vessels as examples... :p D'oh! :D

I'd like to point out that I'm not just being stubborn, here. I WANT you to convince me that the rules work. Please, "make it so"! :D

/The Gaunt Man has returned!

I think you're being a little to literal and, in a way, missing the point. The terms used are not meant to be taken literally. "Penetration" is just another word for "damage" and "Protection" sounds better than "Target Number" or even "Armor Class". The terms havce no real direct correlation to the shields' functioning.

Keep in mind that even without shields, a ship has a "Protection" rating. It may only be 5, but it's still there.

The stats that affect how the shields are functioning are Treshold (which is likely what Picard was refering to with the lasers bit) and the Shield Strength track. The former determines if a weapon can penetrate the shield while the latter determines how the shields are holding up ("shields at XX%").

Hehe I laboured the point there on the Borg cube VS the Danube class merelly to point out how the system actually resolved, it is a complicated set of checks and ballances, and in the end you have to remember it is about gameplay ballance AND cinematics, which is what the Coda system is about..

You mention about the lasers, actually lasers won't work on larger sields for several reasons.. 1 being a ship which is fitted with lasers (assuming it is an old, small vessel with a low or even negative +T) may never get to 'hitting' the ship, and if it does, almost all vessels have at least 1 thresholds, and most laser systems wouldn't do more than that.. Yes the laser system might eventually whittle down the shields, according the rules, but the oposing vessel will have torn strips off it in the mean time!!

In the show the ships are often hit, yet no damage is done to the shields or the ship other than an impressive light show and some set wobbling. In terms of mechanics the higher the threshold the longer the ship will stay in the fight and this is how it would work in the show.. a Galaxy Class VS a Danube class could take much more damage and more shield hits.... BUT and this is the most important factor of the show.. the Danube class would not melt after two shots.. space fights between vehicles of radical size difference are really cinematic and the system allows for that..

Ok using that example, with two more realistic vessels the Galaxy and the Danube.. the Galaxy has a good penetration (5 phasers) good shields (15, 3) a good +T (+4) but a poor helm (-3) ...... A Danube has a weaker weapon (4,4,3) weaker shields (14, 1) and a good helm +2) but weak +T (0)..

In a fight, the Danube would be minced within a few wounds of combat.. The Galaxy has only to roll a 10, but the Danube has to roll a 15.. if the Danube hits it will only do 0-1 damage to the hull (and at 40, that's not going to be an issue, the shields will drop first!) The Galaxy, assuming here, since there are only 6, being one of the best ships in the fleet, will likelly have an above average officer, who with perhaps 8+ in the skill could, with no effort get several raises over the protection, and do several 'wounds' to the shields also. That said because Worf is a skilled officer he is more likelly to get several raises also, hence because he is firing the weapons, the hits get better...

The issue further gets muddied, or actually clarified by maneuvers.. the above Runabout would have a much greater shcance (by 5) of performing a maneuver which would increase the range increment, or evade, than the Galaxy class, which is cinematically how we see the ships perform on the show.. A Runabout would not stand and fight it's ground, it would flee! :D

Just to counterpoint this, game ballance is an issue.. Bigger ships are stronger and better than littler one's.. why do you need to heap more onto that? If you gave the above Borg cube a +9 to hit, because of it's penetration, it would NEVER miss. This is not how starship combat is shown in the films or TV series?! The plucky captain pulls some crazy maneuvers and avoids the hits, causing the energy blasts to glance off their shields, doing little or no damage. To counterballance this you would have to give smaller ships a correspondingly huge +H to allow them not to be hit every single time by a larger ship, by virtue of the fact they have bigger weapons, then the system would be nightmarishly complicated, and heavily unballanced.. certain designs of ship would mince their way through ships and it goes down the dark side path of minmaxing powergaming :D

Rules sets are always compromises.. You can't get the rules to do everything EVER in the shows, because lets be honest, Startrek is not consistent, weapons systems follow THE PLOT, heroes are able to bypass their enemies defences through IDEAS and SKILLS - and that's how the system plays out.. bigger badder ships are harder to hit, and if you do.. you don't get to damage them, if you have a weak old vessel :D The ruleset in Coda is built as an abstract, because how else do you build it? We know a Type X phaser is more powerful than any other phaser.. yet a Galaxy class hitting a shuttle doesn't destroy it, so they have devised a way for both states to be true.

Perhaps you think it's 'Dumb' and doesn't make sense, but I recomend you try and actually use the ships in play, using the maneuvers, comparing ships and seeing how the combat FEELS in play.. it FEELS like you're playing in Star Trek.. space battles last for quite a few combat rounds, and each side tries maneuvers to outmaneuver each other.. larger ships rely on grunt power, smaller ships try to outfly, because in reality they will get squashed if they do anything else..

If you were to add your suggested revisions you'd have to THEN ballance the system, because you're suddenly making it SO much more easy for large ships with big guns to hit smaller one's!

Why not simply look at it the way they do on the TV show.

A ship's shields cannot be penetrated unless you know their shield modulation or you are using a weapon like the Dominion did when first encountering Starfleet?

Shields are there for a reason, penetrating them is a retarded concept that should only come into play once in a blue moon.

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Originally Posted by Tobian

Hehe I laboured the point there on the Borg cube VS the Danube class merelly to point out how the system actually resolved, it is a complicated set of checks and ballances, and in the end you have to remember it is about gameplay ballance AND cinematics, which is what the Coda system is about..

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Agreeed, the rules are complicated. That's why I'm here! ;) (and it has helped, BTW, I had missed a couple of important things).

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Originally Posted by Tobian

You mention about the lasers, actually lasers won't work on larger sields for several reasons.. 1 being a ship which is fitted with lasers (assuming it is an old, small vessel with a low or even negative +T) may never get to 'hitting' the ship, and if it does, almost all vessels have at least 1 thresholds, and most laser systems wouldn't do more than that.. Yes the laser system might eventually whittle down the shields, according the rules, but the oposing vessel will have torn strips off it in the mean time!!

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And again, these don't come from the fact that the weapon used is a laser but that the SHIP is less than modern.

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Originally Posted by Tobian

Just to counterpoint this, game ballance is an issue.. Bigger ships are stronger and better than littler one's.. why do you need to heap more onto that? If you gave the above Borg cube a +9 to hit, because of it's penetration, it would NEVER miss. This is not how starship combat is shown in the films or TV series?! The plucky captain pulls some crazy maneuvers and avoids the hits, causing the energy blasts to glance off their shields, doing little or no damage.

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Actually, AFAIK, Borg ships have never really missed, and shields have always been affected by Borg weapons (at least, I can't recall ever hearing the words "shields are holding" after an attack from a Borg Cube).

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Originally Posted by Tobian

To counterballance this you would have to give smaller ships a correspondingly huge +H to allow them not to be hit every single time by a larger ship, by virtue of the fact they have bigger weapons, then the system would be nightmarishly complicated, and heavily unballanced.. certain designs of ship would mince their way through ships and it goes down the dark side path of minmaxing powergaming :D

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No, I don't think so: the Runabout Jake Sisko and Nog were on didn't stand a chance against a single Jem'Hadar Attack Ship in [DS9:Valiant]. It would have, I think under the Coda rules.

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Originally Posted by Tobian

Rules sets are always compromises.. You can't get the rules to do everything EVER in the shows, because lets be honest, Startrek is not consistent, weapons systems follow THE PLOT, heroes are able to bypass their enemies defences through IDEAS and SKILLS - and that's how the system plays out.. bigger badder ships are harder to hit, and if you do.. you don't get to damage them, if you have a weak old vessel :D The ruleset in Coda is built as an abstract, because how else do you build it? We know a Type X phaser is more powerful than any other phaser.. yet a Galaxy class hitting a shuttle doesn't destroy it, so they have devised a way for both states to be true.

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No, Star Trek has never been consistent, that's a given, but maybe I'm just too fond the old Icon rules (because those DID use weapon damage (=Penetration) for determining whether or not shields were affected). But even the Icon rules needed to be tweaked to fit certain situations, so that's not a problem either.

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Originally Posted by Tobian

If you were to add your suggested revisions you'd have to THEN ballance the system, because you're suddenly making it SO much more easy for large ships with big guns to hit smaller one's!

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I don't think it would. Shield strength would still only drop by a maximum of 3 per shot, and I don't think any attack could cause enough damage to Structure to destroy even a small ship with just one or two shots.

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Originally Posted by Tobian

Perhaps you think it's 'Dumb' and doesn't make sense, but I recomend you try and actually use the ships in play, using the maneuvers, comparing ships and seeing how the combat FEELS in play.. it FEELS like you're playing in Star Trek.. space battles last for quite a few combat rounds, and each side tries maneuvers to outmaneuver each other.. larger ships rely on grunt power, smaller ships try to outfly, because in reality they will get squashed if they do anything else..

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Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said the rules were dumb, so there's no reason to get so defensive. I simply asked if I was dumb for not understanding why the Penetration (damage) value didn't apply in determining if shields were affected.

However, from your statement that the rules FEELS like Star Trek, I'll take your recommendation and try them at least a couple of times, and then return here either with a "nyah-nyah, I was right" or a "I have seen the light, and its name is Coda!" :D

In the words of the Governator: "Ah'll be back!"

/The Gaunt Man has returned!

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Originally Posted by Doug Burke

I think you're being a little to literal and, in a way, missing the point. The terms used are not meant to be taken literally. "Penetration" is just another word for "damage" and "Protection" sounds better than "Target Number" or even "Armor Class". The terms havce no real direct correlation to the shields' functioning.

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No, I think you misunderstood me: I realize that Penetration=damage; that's WHY I find it odd that the power of the weapon you're using doesn't matter when determining if Shield Strength is affected (and that's what Protection is also used for, according to NG p. 114).

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Originally Posted by Doug Burke

Keep in mind that even without shields, a ship has a "Protection" rating. It may only be 5, but it's still there.

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Yes, but let's face it, Protection 5 is really a symbolic value, it's like shooting at barn doors. :)

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Originally Posted by Doug Burke

The stats that affect how the shields are functioning are Treshold (which is likely what Picard was refering to with the lasers bit) and the Shield Strength track. The former determines if a weapon can penetrate the shield while the latter determines how the shields are holding up ("shields at XX%").

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Yes, but Protection also determines if shields are affected:

From the Narrator's Guide:
Below TN = Ship missed (no effect on shields)
Equals TN = Marginal success: Apply damage normally; do not reduce shield
strength
1-5 above TN = Complete success: Reduce shield strength by 1

So, since this is so, ISN'T it strange that the weapon you use doesn't matter for this?

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Originally Posted by Silverstreak

Why not simply look at it the way they do on the TV show.

A ship's shields cannot be penetrated unless you know their shield modulation or you are using a weapon like the Dominion did when first encountering Starfleet?

Shields are there for a reason, penetrating them is a retarded concept that should only come into play once in a blue moon.

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Of course shields can be penetrated. We see it all the time on the shows. CodaTrek has two factors for this: Shield Strength, and Penetration vs. Threshold. When Shield Strength is reduced, that's when we get the funny sparks and light-show console blow-outs on the Bridge, while the other gives us actual damage. Shield Modulation and stuff like that would simply reduce Protection to 5, the equivalent of shooting at a barn. :)

Part of me gets what you mean, but part of me doesn't... if you take a 40 LB gun and an 80Lb gun.. if both are set to the same alignment and miss.. does it make a difference how powerful they were?

The protection rating is a difficulty number to hit the ship, and protection is how much damage gets through when you hit... if you miss, you cant do any damage, and if you have 'better' shields, then it's harder to hit them. Don't forget part of shielding a ship is shielding everything, including sensors.. Lock on is a maneuver because that is exactly what shields are trying to prevent you from doing.. locking on to the ship. Some shields have better technology so they are harder to target and hit because of it. An analogy in modern terms would be chaff, and countermeasures.. you confuse the enemy sensors with false signals, and hide behind the false signals.. don't forget space combat is actually happening at ranges of thousands of kilomiters in some cases (hence range dificulties.. ships at point blank, get penalties to their protection rating via a bonus to the person firing on them) 'Point blank' is a relative term in Trek - it's still dozens of kilomiters! Computers help to make the mind blowing accuracy and maths more possible, but they are fooled by the countermeasres of the shields!

Don't forget just because we can 'see' a ship, it's energy paterns, physical mass and shape are still being masked by the shield.. For sensors to perform their technological wonders, and defy Einsteinian physics, they rely on subspace sensing technology, which is blocked by the shields, so denighed of that things are harder.. Medium range is up to 40,000 Kilomiters!!! one tiny fraction of a tangiential ark in error and you have missed the ship by dozens of kilomiters! if you're relying on the narrow sensor windows which allow you to see the ships, then it's a huge feat to hit a ship at that range, at all! Hence the protection rating. Missing is still missing. A cloaking device is a form of shield, don't forget, it just shields more, including the visible spectrum: It's virtually impossible to hit and target, because it is fooling the sensors. If you can think of shields in that way it clarifies what the protection rating is!

Does that help clarify it any?

I agree with you about damage getting through, and it was one of the things which annoyed me about icon.. nothing got through until the shields dropped - THAT was incorrect to the onscreen evidence in all cases!

I hope you do try, and like them, but if you do feel the need to tweak them, use moderation, giving ships that much of a bonus WILL unballance the game!

And another point to make about CODA starship combat rules is that I think they really try to stick to what is seen on screen instead of reproducing something realistic.

For example, I think there were only a handful of episodes in all of Trek series where the shields held no matter how much pounding they got... they always tend to drop down a few percent after a sufficient number of successful hits, and the bridge set starts to shake. On that regard, the system perfectly fits : any successful hit dents the shields, however the shields still protect the ship if the weapon used against them is not strong enough.

And Tobian has very valid points about the countermeasures... even though starship combat in Trek always seem to occur with ships at a few hundred meters from one another, I guess this is more a matter of esthetics (you really wouldn't want to watch starships firing at some little dots that are the other ships a few kilometers away). I guess a shield is not only a strong forcefield stoping phasers shots and torpedoes, it must also include a vast measures of countermeasures and scramblers.

And finally... CODA is designed to be rules of a game, and therefore allow anything to happen. If it were possible to build a ship that NO weapon could hurt if it was not powerful enough, then some combats would become irrelevant, as the issue would already been known. Danger and success must always be at hand in a Star Trek game, and this system allows a very lucky and skilled pilot onboard a runabout to disable a Galaxy-class.... which is a good thing, as much for players attempting a desperate mission as for players becoming too snug and confident in their big strong starship.

Another point about the rules system I like is that even the smallest ship can do damage on a large ship, with a clever strategy. We've seen this on the show. A Small flock of ships could take out a larger ship purelly because of numbers, thus the Dominion fighters are deadly. Yes you can destroy them in a few hits, but they are nimble, and there are lots and lots of them!

Another point to note is power transfer and Jury rig. Larger ships can transfer power to the shields, because they have more sysems with lots of damage tracks to steal it from. This can backfire, but on the whole allows them to keep going much longer... As a slight house rule I allow my players to use 'jury rig' on the shields damage track.. this allows them to keep it going longer, however those repairs are only good for 10 or so rounds of combat, and if those jusry rigs fail after it has taken further damage, they can outright collapse in one go! The power transfer concept as a whole operates just as we've seen in the show.. the ICON system was a hugelly complex and confusing thing, because if a system failed you err.. recovered all of it's power and suddenly had a glut?!! UGH!

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Originally Posted by Gaunt_Man

Of course shields can be penetrated. We see it all the time on the shows. CodaTrek has two factors for this: Shield Strength, and Penetration vs. Threshold. When Shield Strength is reduced, that's when we get the funny sparks and light-show console blow-outs on the Bridge, while the other gives us actual damage. Shield Modulation and stuff like that would simply reduce Protection to 5, the equivalent of shooting at a barn. :)

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We certainly do not see it all the time, it's very rare to see it at all.

We don't see actual physical damage to the hulls of the ships, because of cost reasons, but most time when a shot does 'damage' not only do we get a readout to the effect of 'sheilds down to 50% sir" but the set wobbles, shakes, panels short and explode.. We hear about casualties, sections of the ship vented to space and sometimes see fires and sections of the ship cut off, random girders all over the place, and sometimes, just sometimes, a few strands of Janeways hair fall out of place! :)

The ship *IS* being damaged, but we don't or rather more properly can't see a big special effect of the hull being blown out, because up untill EXTREMELLY recently, that wasn't feasible on a TV budget.

The ship doesn't take as much damage with her shields up, as she does, but why do you think the sets shake when the ship is hit? Do you think the ships suspension and shock absorbers are connected to the shields? it's just low budget 'damage' :)