How super-human are your super-humans?

I have aways struggled with this in my mind.

When ST:TOS was being aired, super-strong aliens were indeed super-strong. I remmember seem Spock doing things like smash panels, bend metal bars with a punch etc.

I remmember kirk being ass-kicked by super strong Cristopher Loyd klingon.

But as the show went on, and specially with ST:TNG and ST:Voyager they seem to intentionaly forget that. They may mention that "vultans are 3 times stronger than humans" but we have seem Belana wrestling the vulcan ensign with equal force (same way kirk did with Spock years before).

To me it looks very bad on the screen, but I guess its the price we pay for a looooooong continuity line. I can live with that.

But we come to RPG its a problem to me.:rolleyes: RPGs put numbers in character stats, so its literaly "writen in stone".

What I try to do when I make a vulcan character for example is spend my points (no mater the system) to make it stronger, but its never really super human. But obviously it costs a lot.

I was wondering: strenght and stamina are not that important in most futuristic scenarios, as Data showed us. Hes like a kryptonian (kidding), but how many times his streght realy made the diference? I mean its not DnD. If you can stand bullets (like Data in First Contact) so what?

The Founders limitless abilities indeed scares me as a DM.:mad:

I was would like to hear from you guys if you ever stoped to think about that...

Well RPG rules IMHO have to balance things out.
So there really should be no "superhuman" character to begin with. (a lot of players would end up playing Kilngons and Vulkans just for the benefits it grants)

Vulkans and Klingons may have some advantages over humans but they also have some severe drawbacks - if you always follow the way of a Klingon your live can end very early and very abruptly indeed. And as a Narrator i strongly encourage proper role playing.
For Data while he certainly is the Prime Example for a Superhuman being he has his drawbacks too... He has no emotions at all and cant even feel superior to anyone else although he knows he is superior.

The Major Cast of the shows is always a bad example we are talking about larger than live Persons legendary in their own time...:D:D
So kids don't try this at home unless you want to end up displaced in time, on a desolate planet falling down a gorge without getting any of the benefits Starfleet offers for retired Officers.;);)

Well, Vulcans are stronger than humans, but they never really had Spock do his 'smashy-smashy' routine unless it was important to the story (he was under some kind of influence, or needed to break something quickly). Modern Vulcans are even more conservative than Spock was, so I doubt that a Vulcan would ever use his strength for anything but the most serious situations.

As for Klingon strength, which i always figured was a little more than human, but less than Vulcan (imho), if you notice, SF has been teaching its members martial arts for combat instead of the brawling style of Kirk, which helps combat the typical frontline Klingon soldier's attacks.

Sure, Data is Superman, but he has even more behavioural limits than our son of Krypton. (makes you wonder about a MU Data....) And while most GM's would blanche at the idea of a Founder PC, the mountain of drawbacks (needs to regen every 18 hours, imperfect mimic of humanoid forms, lack of understanding of even basic 'solid; behavior, and don't forget all the social penelties when meeting just about anyone ) would keep the character in line.

So, basicly, I'm saying that in a RPG setting, it all balances out with proper amounts of role play, character gen, and GMastering!

Thanks for the replies guys.

I agree that the Vulcan Super Human strenght would be ok to play with - no problem, specially considering he would almost never have the chance to use it. Whats bothers me is that in most RPG systems the stats are not there.

Take CODA for example: vulcans have a bit more strenght than humans not to mention the same average stamina. So you want to play a guy strong like Tuvok? Shure! Pay 10000 character advancments and it will do the trick.

But physical super-stats are not THAT big advantage on a futuristic RPG. They are much more "color" them real advantages.

Lets face it: even if DATA and the Founders are imune to most physical harm, any kid with a phaser could kill then. As most tekno-bubble radiation etc.

Maybe I am just venting some steam but I would like to see bigger balls on the writers (including the writers of the TV Shows). :mad:

The trouble with super humans is that they make the story harder for scenarists or GMs... If one character is that powerful, he has the potential to short circuit any plot, thus the need for limitations. And it is a bigger concern in a RPG, where powergamers are always a risk, and even without them, it's much harder to have a character "forget" his abilities in a tabletop RPG than in a TV show.

Some RPG systems allow for huge discrepancies between characters, and other don't. For instance, in CODA, a very strong character (ST 14) will not be actually twice as strong as a normal human (ST 7). It's a matter of choosing the system that will allow the differences you want.

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Originally Posted by C5

For instance, in CODA, a very strong character (ST 14) will not be actually twice as strong as a normal human (ST 7). It's a matter of choosing the system that will allow the differences you want.

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Whats about using advantages/edges/racial abilities? I mean if we gave Vulcans Strenght for example:

* 3 Times Stronger "Vulcans are exceptionaly srtong and resilent, and can lift 3 times the equivalent weight based on his strenght. Additionaly Vulcans receive +2 to Strenght related tests and combat actions involving grabbling/wrestling, including the Nerve Pinch technique."

This ability could replace the healing Trance or something like that.

And as poweerfull as it seems, I still keep in my mind: 7of9, Spock and Data how many times they actuially took advantage of their strenght?

I agree that in the Trekverse, a high strength is not that big an edge - partly because the Federation is more the peaceful type, and partly because pure strength is hardly needed in a time where phasers and antigravs are common.
So I wouldn't consider a very strong character a potential scenario hazard, but more an interesting quirk.

But for instance Data's superior intellect and multitasking abilities were used much more often, AFAIR. And such advantages could severely inbalance a game.

Your got my point precisely.

At least we can "buy" Multitasking, Mathematical Abilities etc. using almost any rule system. And honestly a great part of Data´s Advantages are just "make up". He is not way better than other ST genius like Spock, Dr. Bashir, Jadzia, or 7of9.
Whats bothers me is that the physical qualities usually are not covered by the system at all, so basically you can´t emulate then, and if you can you pay an absurd price...

Brikars on the other hand seem kinda imbalanced the way I have head of then, according to Memory-Beta: They have thick, rock-like skin that enables them to withstand and simply shake off disruptor blasts. I simpli hate this race...:mad:

Even if DATA is 10 times stronguer than Zak Kebron, he can´t stand energy weapon blasts... in fact even stun settings.

So, a Brikar is essentially The Thing (from Fantastic Four)?:confused:

Well, take heart that the quote is only from Memory Beta, and therefor not game stats, although as the 'official' unoffical Trek database, it would be were most people would go to design a race (i know i've looked a few times for some of my ideas).

Shaking off a disrupter blast??? A beam of energy that DISRUPTS molecular bonds? A Stunner, sure. Maybe even a phaser up to the kill settings. But a disrupter?

Ok, back to topic...I remember my 'i love augments' phase: the problem is that you really can't 'do them justice' without seriously breaking some rules.
I mean look, they have enhanced, possibly "mega-strength", fast reaction times, improved hand/eye coordination, learn skills quickly, apparently good memories for Ensigns they never met, and some are very charasmatic!

I mean as a villian, its cool. And I guess you can have npc guys do just about anything you want them too, but still its kinda unfair....:(

[QUOTE=Tricky;166330]So, a Brikar is essentially The Thing (from Fantastic Four)?:confused:
[QUOTE]


LOL as described in the Novels by Peter David, yes he is. Obviously they are unofficial stories.

I remmember a quote from Captain Mkenzie, when scanning the debries of an exploded space station:

"Considering Mr. Zak skin density, its possible that we do not find any residues from his body?"

LOL, "considering his skin density".

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OK, back on topic, I am considering replacing CODA Vulcan´s "Rapid Healing" with this:

* 3 Times Stronger: Vulcans can lift 2 times the equivalent amount of weight and receive an extra +2 bonus on strenght related tests.

Well... I don't think that any of my PC's are too "super" to play, even though one had an insanely high intelligence (especially for a former Orion slave) from an unbelivably lucky set of character generation rolls back when I played FASA-Trek.

My NPCs tend to be a little super-er, but that's mostly as plot devices. I do have a Kzinti ensign aboard. And he IS extra-strong... but he's also not your typical Kzin. He's gentle.

I did once create a species (even posted it here, IIRC) that had evolved the ability to absorb, and in some cases redirect, exotic forms of radiation (like a phaser beam) because of their unstable sun. But it was limited in capacity. They could shrug off 'stun,' but proportionally higher settings would affect them in a proportionate way, so that what kills others might not kill them, but what kills everything kills them, too.

Okay, and I once had my characters meet a being they consider "the Devil." But that was intended as one of those "Giants in the Playground" kind of episodes, like that B5 episode where Sinclair's girlfriend crosses paths with a First One.

NIce.

I have no issues for Q -like beigns, as they are NPCs, almost like plot elements.

But when come the time for PCs super-something, I think most Syetems crashes.

Just to give one example: does anyone have seeem Lt.Cdr. Data from the old LUG book? I disliked a lot of things in that sheet, and what I hated most if that they simpli "forgot" to mention Data´s super strenght.:o

Sorry to raise a dead thread, but coming into the game as a newbie, I find that I have some questions and thoughts similar to things partially addressed back in the heyday of this game.

For Strength, I was considering maybe adding a species freebie type of edge that adjusted the way Sherpa manifested for different races/species.

I was doing some work recently, translating some Marvel character aliens (Kree, Skrulls, whatever) into the TNG setting, and was running into some challenges. Strength for Marvel aliens tended to be rather high, even for baselines, representing species with around a half-ton to a ton lifting ability. Now, without giving them a strength of like...50 something, I figured a more balanced way would be to keep them in lines with other races for strength (12-14 max or so, based on racial adjustments), but with completely different scales for use with the Sherpa edge (or double sherpa, if you took the trait that let you upgrade an otherwise nonupgradable trait) without also requiring 1)a rule change allowing more than 1 upgrade of the sherpa trait, 2)not requiring 10 advancements or so being plugged into sherpa to get the close carry/lift ranges.

The way I see it, having a super-carry or lift range doesn't really have a game unbalancing effect, so you strength 14 lets you (now) carry half a ton without problem, but you still get the same attribute mods for skills as a dude with a regular 14 and no super-sherpa plugin.

One idea was to just do the freebie mod I was tooling with, a multiplier that multiplied rather than added to the existing multiplier, as the edges otherwise set up. Or a modded sherpa based on species.


Base lift is x20. If I wanted a 'twice as strong' or '1.5x as strong' or '3 times as strong' as a human type alien, the easiest thing would be go 20x2, or 20x1.5 or 20x3. FOr carry ability, I guess we'd have to do quick and dirty on that too, multiplying the carry weights by ranges by the same mod. I don't think it really works that way in real life, but it's close enough for a game.

This way would be easiest, but also make all aliens of a particular species stronger across the board, but that sorta eliminates variability.

So the other way was racially/species modified applications of Sherpa. If you buy Sherpa, THEN you add your species multiplier to the end result. So for this case, if we're saying a Vulcan is on average twice as strong as a human, you can end up with a Vulcan with strength 10 who can lift as much as a human with strength 10, or a vulcan with strength 10 and sherpa who can lift MUCH more than a human with strength 10 and sherpa. Since it doesn't affect physical skill checks (other than encumberance mods) I don't think it'd be too unbalanced.