Confusion on taking a second Starship Officer Elite Order

I've hit a bizarre situation that I'm hopeful you fine folks can guide me on; here's the situation:

- Our Captain for our campaign is starting out quite experienced (42 Advancements) and we've built him properly.

- This character - Geoffrey Eagleheart - is a well-defined character with a thorough backstory. There's even been an entire novel written with him as the main character (written by the player's roommate).

- To construct the backstory on this character properly, he went through the following orders:

1) First he took Starship Officer, gaining Starship Duty (ship's Archaeologist) and the Elite Order of Starship Science Officer.

At this point - as I understand it - the character has two Orders:

a) Starship Officer
b) Starship Science Officer

For awhile I was thinking that the Professional Ability Starship Duty allowed you to be both at once, but upon closer examination I think it only serves as the prerequisites for the Science Officer position.

2) From here he took Soldier (while he was serving on the Klingon homeworld, Qo'noS). To do this, he dropped the Science Officer Order and thus at this point had:

a) Starship Officer
b) Soldier

3) Next he went through Department Head Training, served during the Federation-Tholian War, then began Command training. He dropped Soldier and took up the Order of Command Officer. Thus he now has:

a) Starship Officer
b) Starship Command Officer

Here's where it gets weird. He still has Starship Duty (from the original Staship Officer selection). In it, he picked a spot on the ship (Archaeologist). Now that he's switching over to Command, he has to meet the prerequisites. That means he has to buy a bunch of stuff - like Enterprise (Administration) and Persuade - that cost him double as Non-Professional Skills.

Yet at some point, one has to acknowledge that he is not serving as a ship's Archaeologist, especially as we know he's going for a Captaincy.

It doesn't seem fair to make him spend 5 picks on Command, or to force him to buy up the prerequisities, especially as he could simply pick "Starship Officer" again, then buy the Professional Ability of "Starship Duty" a second time, which would then serve as all of the prerequisities.

But how does he buy Staship Officer again when that's already one of his two Orders? And why buy a second Starship Duty again, which essentially negates the earlier one?

This character has much more history after this point, as he played a role in the Klingon Civil War, defected to the Maquis, and has served as a Captain for 15 years (eventually returning to Starfleet).

But this point where he first switches from Soldier to Command has me baffled.

The way I'm leaning towards doing it right now is:

a) Allowing the player/character to switch out his Starship Duty from Archaeologist to Captain (for free; no picks).

b) Allow the Starship Duty to satisfy all of the prerequisites to enter the Command Officer order.

c) The character can then spend 5 Advancement picks to move from Soldier to Starship Command Officer, where he would currently have the following two Orders:

a) Starship Officer
b) Starship Command Officer

If anyone has any clarifications, advice, or input, I would very much appreciate it! Thanks in advance for your perspective!

This is covered in the errata/FAQ, which can be found on my support site (the link is in my sig). Take a gander at that, and see if it clears things up for you. If not, drop another line here and I'll try to clear things up for you.

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Originally Posted by PGoodman13

This is covered in the errata/FAQ, which can be found on my support site (the link is in my sig). Take a gander at that, and see if it clears things up for you. If not, drop another line here and I'll try to clear things up for you.

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You got it, Patrick. And I go to your site lots (tons of great info there), FWIW. I must have missed that in the errata, though I've read through them a number of times. Will go look again right now. Thanks! :)

Patrick,

I assume you mean the part that reads:

Page 67, Command Officer, Prerequisites. Should read “Starship Duty or...”. The same applies to the prerequisites listed
for all Starship Officer elite professions. For ease of reference, each occurrence is listed here.
• Page 67, Command Officer
• Page 69, Flight Control Officer
• Page 70, Starship Engineer
• Page 71, Starship Operations Officer
• Page 72, Security Officer
• Page 74, Counselor
• Page 75, Medical Officer
• Page 76, Science Officer

I guess that explains some of it; would you say my way of doing it sounds the most logical, given the circumstances? In other words, should I simply charge 5 Advancement picks (for the change from Soldier to Command Officer) and allow the character to change his Starship Duty (from Archaeologist to Captain) and call it good?

Doug, I'm actually referring to the FAQ section at the back of the errata. We'd received several question about Starship Officers and Starship Offier Elite Professions, so I finally broke down and covered that before Decipher folded their tent.

While I think you'll be able to figure it out from the FAQ I mentioned earlier, I thought I'd just jump in and help you out as an illustration, and to see if I've got everything right in my head. It's been a while since I worked on all that.

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Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

1) First he took Starship Officer, gaining Starship Duty (ship's Archaeologist) and the Elite Order of Starship Science Officer.

At this point - as I understand it - the character has two Orders:

a) Starship Officer
b) Starship Science Officer

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Actually, this is considered one profession. Starship Officer is only half a profession on its own; it has to have one of the SOEPs to make it fully functional. So, at this point, you've got him in one profession:

Starship Science Officer

He's also got a Tier 1 Professional Ability from Science Officer coming to him; I personally am very fond of Journeyman.

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For awhile I was thinking that the Professional Ability Starship Duty allowed you to be both at once, but upon closer examination I think it only serves as the prerequisites for the Science Officer position.

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The first time Starship Duty is taken, it acts as both the advancement picks (since the beginning character doesn't have any to spend as yet) and the skill prerequisites for entry into the SOEP of choice. Subsequent purchases of Starship Duty act as either the advancement picks OR the skill prerequisites, but not both.

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2) From here he took Soldier (while he was serving on the Klingon homeworld, Qo'noS). To do this, he dropped the Science Officer Order and thus at this point had:

a) Starship Officer
b) Soldier

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Unnecessary to drop Science Officer. At this point he's a Starship Science Officer and a Soldier. It costs him 1 advancement (5 picks) to enter Soldier, and he gets a Tier 1 professional ability (if I read the errata and stuff right; some of my wording there is a little vague).

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3) Next he went through Department Head Training, served during the Federation-Tholian War, then began Command training. He dropped Soldier and took up the Order of Command Officer. Thus he now has:

a) Starship Officer
b) Starship Command Officer

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Now here's where things might start getting sticky. If he already had all the skill prereqs, he could just drop Soldier and spend 5 advancement picks to enter Command Officer elite profession. Or he could purchase Starship Duty for 3 picks and enter the Command Officer EP, and still have a couple of picks left over (essentially getting into the EP for a cheaper cost).

If he didn't have the skill prereqs, he'd need to purchase Starship Duty again on one advancement to waive the skill prereqs, and then spend 5 advancement picks on the Command Officer EP on the next advancement.

There are some options either way, depending on his situation vis a vis skill levels and whatnot. And no matter how he did it, upon entering the Command Officer EP he gets a Tier 1 professional ability.

At this point, he's:

a) Starship Science Officer
b) Starship Command Officer

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Here's where it gets weird. He still has Starship Duty (from the original Staship Officer selection). In it, he picked a spot on the ship (Archaeologist). Now that he's switching over to Command, he has to meet the prerequisites. That means he has to buy a bunch of stuff - like Enterprise (Administration) and Persuade - that cost him double as Non-Professional Skills.

Yet at some point, one has to acknowledge that he is not serving as a ship's Archaeologist, especially as we know he's going for a Captaincy.

It doesn't seem fair to make him spend 5 picks on Command, or to force him to buy up the prerequisities, especially as he could simply pick "Starship Officer" again, then buy the Professional Ability of "Starship Duty" a second time, which would then serve as all of the prerequisities.

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See above. His first instance of Starship Duty got his Science Officer post. It's benefits (waive advancement pick requirement, waive skill prerequisites) is spent at this point. After he drops Soldier, he's still a Starship Officer; he's just adding a different SOEP to his mix. If he has the skills, Starship Duty is a cheaper way into the EP. If he doesn't have the skills, Starship Duty is cheaper than buying up the non-professional skills to get to the requisite levels.

No matter how you go about it, though, he never left the Starship Officer base profession; Starship Duty is a Tier 1 professional ability for a Starship Officer no matter which Elite Profession he's chosen.

So something seems to have been unclear, and it might have been my fault.

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But how does he buy Staship Officer again when that's already one of his two Orders? And why buy a second Starship Duty again, which essentially negates the earlier one?

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You don't have to buy Starship Officer again. And you buy Starship Duty again because the benefits of the first one have already been spent.

Does that make sense?

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The way I'm leaning towards doing it right now is:

a) Allowing the player/character to switch out his Starship Duty from Archaeologist to Captain (for free; no picks).

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Generous, but not the way the rules were written or intended.

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If anyone has any clarifications, advice, or input, I would very much appreciate it! Thanks in advance for your perspective!

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Has any of this helped, Doug, or have I just muddied the waters further?

No, thanks, Patrick, this clears it up immensely.

One thing that still has me a bit puzzled is the "free" Professional Ability you get when you gain a new Order (or Elite Order).

Although I don't find it with a quick perusal of the Lord of the Rings errata, we were always under the understanding that you got this pick with your first Order, but thereafter you no longer got a free one.

I think it makes a lot of sense to get one (one doesn't then feel like they've "wasted" their five picks, just to get into the Order; they actually get something for it), so I like it, but I thought that this didn't happen after character creation (and the pick of that first Order).

And I get what you're saying about Starship Duty; even though this character wouldn't be a ship's Archaeologist anymore, his original purchase of Starship Duty isn't/wasn't really wasted - because it was used to serve as the prerequisites to get into the Elite Order. Makes sense!

Thanks much for the help; I really do appreciate it!

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Originally Posted by PGoodman13

He's also got a Tier 1 Professional Ability from Science Officer coming to him; I personally am very fond of Journeyman.

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Oh, btw - Journeyman is exactly what he chose as his first PA. It's a very cool ability! (Many of the Science ones are very nifty; I also really like Theorize and Scientific Protocols).

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Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Although I don't find it with a quick perusal of the Lord of the Rings errata, we were always under the understanding that you got this pick with your first Order, but thereafter you no longer got a free one.

I think it makes a lot of sense to get one (one doesn't then feel like they've "wasted" their five picks, just to get into the Order; they actually get something for it), so I like it, but I thought that this didn't happen after character creation (and the pick of that first Order).

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Difference in implementation between LOTR and Trek. Some of the differences we as a team felt were weaker in Trek, so we fixed them there in errata (Species Skills, for instance). I don't know if Jim was going to fix the Order Ability thing in LOTR errata or not; he saw the writing on Decipher's wall a long time before I did, and he was significantly more pragmatic about getting out.

Me, I'm a little loopy.

I've got an 8-month old on my lap or I'd give you a page citation about it, but check the section on elite professions around page 155 or so of the Player's Guide.

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Originally Posted by PGoodman13

Difference in implementation between LOTR and Trek. Some of the differences we as a team felt were weaker in Trek, so we fixed them there in errata (Species Skills, for instance). I don't know if Jim was going to fix the Order Ability thing in LOTR errata or not; he saw the writing on Decipher's wall a long time before I did, and he was significantly more pragmatic about getting out.

Me, I'm a little loopy.

I've got an 8-month old on my lap or I'd give you a page citation about it, but check the section on elite professions around page 155 or so of the Player's Guide.

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Sounds good. Thanks for all the help on this!