Dominion War effect in Starship Construction

HI all,

For a few months I have been working in a fan supplement that will include lots of new starships (as well as starship weapons, shields, maneuvers) for the biggest powers in the Star Trek galaxy. Maybe you have seen some of my first works on PGoodman awesome website.

This supplement was designed for my home campaign in mind which happens in the 2377-2385 period more or less. I wanted to give my players more options to choose from so most of those new ships were commisioned in that time. The excuse to have so many ships designed in only 10 years or so was that the Dominion War had accelerated the design and construction efforts.

I think that in times of war weapon industry and research become a priority and thus by the end of the conflict there were a lot of advances.

What do you think? Is it justified and believable to have 30 new starship designs in the span of 10 years? Or maybe I am stretching my reasoning too much?

Thanks.

My personal belief is that their are far too many ship designs as it is, BUT, during wartime, that sentiment goes out the window. Just take a look at the explosion of ship/aircraft designs during WWII. Many of those designs were experimental or failed in the heat of battle, but there were dozens of new designs leaving the factory or slipways almost as fast as they could be conceived, so a slew of new ships that were developed during the Dominion War is quite believable.

There are two forces at play here.

One, Starfleet seemed to have lost a significant number of ships in the war, and also created some programs (like the Centaur, Curry and Yeager) specifically for wartime combat requirements (warm warp cores) that will be mothballed (if not scrapped all together) very quickly after the cessation of hostilities.

Two, thanks in part to the Perimeter Defense Directive, Starfleet was probably at record force strengths leading into and during the war. From this perspective, Starfleet probably wants to retreat from its peak strength.

So, these two competing forces will determine how many new programs Starfleet commissions, though it does have ten programs less than 10 years after launch at the end of the war: two heavy cruisers (Akria and Sequoia), a heavy escort (Defiant), a light explorer (Intrepid), a heavy scout (Nova), two light cruisers (Prometheus and Saber), a heavy explorer (Sovereign), and two heavy frigates (Norway and Steamrunner).

Add to that the Talon-class scout and there are really no functional holes in Starfleet's complement of programs. Perhaps a standard cruiser or exploratory cruiser, but two heavy cruisers and two light cruisers can cover that ground nicely. Or, perhaps, a light frigate, though there's hardly a need for another combat-heavy vessel (since the PDD was all about beefing up the fleet).

In the end, I think Starfleet has the programs it needs to successfully perform its myriad of missions in the post-war period, and would instead focus on modernizing the fleet (i.e., replacing older, war-damaged ships with new vessels from the new group) and sizing to its preferred post-war strength (whether that's up or down from here). I see a lot of construction, but few new designs 'til at least the late 2390s.

I have to agree with Sea Tyger- after every modern war, the Navy was invariably punished for having won it. Force levels, new construction, and even R&D are invariably cut as spending priorities (and fickle public opinion) are turned toward more "domestic" priorities.

There's an old adage:

"God and the Navy we adore,
In times of danger, not before.

The danger past, all is requited,
God is forgotten, and the Navy slighted."

It would be little different in the post-War Federation.

The closest real-life analog we'll find to the Dominion War is, of course, World War II. During the War, multi-million dollar (multi-billion or even trillion dollar in today's terms) construction programs were the order of the day.

At one point, American shipyards were commissioning new freighters on a daily (and sometimes hourly) basis and a new destroyer once every three-to-five days.

Spending on ships, aircraft, tanks and bullets was profligate, if not wasteful. All that ended and fiscal priorities were turned upside down within hours of the Japanese surrender and the end of the War.

Within two years of the conclusion of hostilities, the Navy had dropped its overall force levels by fifty percent, and over the next ten years dropped total man power levels by something approaching eighty percent. They decommissioned something like ninety percent of the carriers, sixty percent of the battleships, and approximately 2/3rds of the destroyers/escorts.

There were serious proposals in Congress and other halls of power to cut the Navy down to seventy ships (smaller than the current Coast Guard) and a single carrier and to disband the Marine Corp entirely.

Much of this stupidity was pushed by the newly-independent United States Air Farce and the absolutely assinine notion (you were an arrogant ass Curtis LeMay) that conventional warfare was no longer possible because we'd just nuke anyone who pissed us off.

Only the "Revolt of the Admirals", the Russian acquisition of atomic arms, and the Korean War prevented a cataclysmic and disastrous dismantling of the American military. Overall military budgets were slashed by fifty percent or more from pre-war levels and by eighty percent or more from war-time highs.

Overall force levels (except for the Air Farce) were cut in half or more.

If memory serves, it was twelve years or more before a new class of ship appeared in the U.S. Navy- and force levels were being drastically reduced all the while.

Most "construction" in the naval yards in the late forties, fifties, and early sixties were experimental- trying to retrofit the existing fleet to handle newly developed jet aircraft and guided missile technologies.

I can't think of a single "modern" warship that put to sea in the late forties or fifties, that wasn't either a conversion of an existing design, or a cheaper, less-capable "austerity" measure designed to cut costs in a rapidly shrinking and competitive budget environment.

The first purpose-built guided missile destroyers didn't appear till the late sixties- all the rest were conversions. The first purpose built "super carrier", the Forrestal, wasn't laid down until the mid-fifties, and that only because it was an absolute necessity- the older Essex and Midway class carriers were having more and more trouble keeping up with new aircraft designs.

The post-Dominion War Federation would be no different. Even in a "moneyless" command-and-control society, resource allocations would shift dramatically from rebuilding the Fleet (and R&D for the same) to civilian reconstruction and rebuilding efforts and to consumer goods.

A war-weary population with a large percentage of skilled veterans would shift away from an at-war footing, to a less austere, more "living the good-life" mentality- just as we saw in the late 40's and 50's in Americana.

The size of the fleet would be cut dramatically, recruiting efforts would drop off dramatically (and military service would seem far less glamarous). Because of the need for fewer men and a higher percentage of trained veterans, entry requirements would be tightened considerably as well.

Given that there are no major threats on the Federation's horizon, and that the existing force-structure (thanks to the PDI) appears to adequately meet the fleet's existing priorities, new construction and R&D- including new ship designs- would taper off significantly.

New starship construction of starships would be just sufficient to restore the fleet to pre-war levels and to meet a very limited growth margin- no more.

There are no new technological hurdles that the fleet needs to meet (such as jet aircraft or guided missiles), so there's no driving need for major innovation or upgrades to the fleet -and therefore, no need to invest resources (money) on new starships. There is no new "arms race"- the Federation is not competing with the Klingons or the Romulans to see who can field new vessels faster. There's neither the need nor the inclination to turn out new designs at a rapid pace.

Very elderly vessels, those with major flaws, or which are otherwise difficult or expensive to maintain and operate will all be retired and then sold or scrapped. Those vessels which are relatively new, and gave good service, but which are not needed will be decommissioned and moth-balled (placed in storage in case they're needed in the future). Even new vessels judged too expensive to repair will be decommissioned and scrapped (the fate of the brand-new U.S.S. Franklin CV-13).

Smaller vessels that can be turned to civilian uses will be sold off at firesale prices as the Federation seeks to retire some of the massive debt incurred in wartime spending, and we're liable to see a lot of Mirandas and smaller vessels disarmed and converted to civilan freighters. We're liable to see a number of Federation designs converted to civilian research and economic applications (Jacques Cousteau's beloved research vessel Calypso was a converted Navy mine-hunter during the War).

The first decade or so after the Dominion War will be one of rest, repair, and austerity for the Service. The only "new" designs would either be those which meet a specific shortcoming in the force structure or be the completion of vessels begun during the war- a matter of "clearing the decks" as it were.

Quote:

---

For a few months I have been working in a fan supplement that will include lots of new starships (as well as starship weapons, shields, maneuvers) for the biggest powers in the Star Trek galaxy. I think that in times of war weapon industry and research become a priority and thus by the end of the conflict there were a lot of advances.

---

During the post-War drawdown, work on new designs and new weapons systems begun during the war would be completed. Once that work is finished, however, new vessels and new weapons designs would be few and far between.

A good rule of thumb is that anything that would take less than eighteen months to finish would be completed, while anything taking more than eighteen months would likely be cancelled outright- unless it filled a pressing need.

Shipyards themselves will be laying off workers and decommissioning dock areas as the need for new vessels tapers off, and a lot of the "brain trust" in these industries will be shifting to civilian, rather than military applications.

No- for at least a decade after the War, new starship designs would be rare and new vessels few in number. Those that do reach completion would simply be modifications of existing designs and therefore "variations on a theme".

Well, if you incorporate the expanded universe in the novels, the Borg are rearing their cyborg heads. Sounds like we need some new ship designs! :eek:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by K.G. Carlson

Well, if you incorporate the expanded universe in the novels, the Borg are rearing their cyborg heads. Sounds like we need some new ship designs! :eek:

---

Okay. That's it. I've had it.

First- Stop tipping off my players of what I'm doing to their characters next.

Also- for the purposes of the thread- the PDI covers the Borg as well as the other threats. If memory serves, the Sovereign, Steamrunner, Akira, and Norway classes (as well as the Defiants) were intended as Borg busters, not merely general combatants.

Interestingly enough, the STO timeline (approved by Paramount, IIRC) specifies that Starfleet (citing a lack of a renewed Borg threat and the fact that even Janeway could handle them) dismantles its Borg Task Force in 2385.


I don't want anyone to misunderstand me or mistake my position: I'm not arguing that there wouldn't be new ships or designs coming out- just that they would be relatively few in number and low on Starfleet's priority list.

I for one am definitely interested in expanded equipment tables for Starships and the ESO- particularly in the post-War period and leading up to STO.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by selek

Much of this stupidity was pushed by the newly-independent United States Air Farce and the absolutely assinine notion (you were an arrogant ass Curtis LeMay) that conventional warfare was no longer possible because we'd just nuke anyone who pissed us off.

---

Truer words were never spoken about LeMay. He thought the world revolved around his own ass and considering how big it was, I could see how he could think that.

Air Force is still sucking down more DoD budget than they should for such useful systems as the gold plated B2 and F22 programs, while the ground forces, Army and Marines, that can actually win a war have to make do with less money than they need.

How about thirty new Miranda variants? That I'd buy.

Well, I admit that the arguments of SeaTyger are logical and true. However I must tell you that I am following the timeline depicted in the films and the novels after Nemesis.

Do you remember the sentence that the bad guy in "Insurrection" tells Picard about every power in the galaxy defiing the Federation? That suggest me that after the Dominion War there is a new feeling of "Hey, the galaxy is not the peaceful sandbox we used to play in".

In addition, the short Selvevian War commented in New Frontier, the disintegration of the Romulan Empire and the Typhon Pact are reasons for the Federation to keep some of their resources in weapons design.

To be honest, I am not convinced of any position in this discussion. What I know is that I sure won't be able to hold a campaign that last more than the 2377 - 2385 era.

Well, thanks for your time.

I don't recall Picard's line from Insurrection, but the movie did take place during the DW, so it could be attributed to the fact that Starfleet's attention is elsewhere in 2375 (allowing the mice to play, to borrow from an overused phrase).

After the war, the Cardassians are unable to wage war and the Romulans are also recovering from wartime losses. The KDF has been set back by decades. The only two regional powers left relatively unharmed are the Tholians and the Gorn.

The Borg are still a threat in the first three years following the war, but the actions of USS Voyager in 2378 severely curtail their activity in the Alpha Quadrant. The Romulans suffer through the Reman uprising in 2379, but its hinted that relations will grow warmer between the Romulans and the Federation after Shinzon is defeated.

So, by 2380, there's not a lot of threats out there...of course, 2387 comes around and Romulus is destroyed by a supernova-like-we've-never-seen-before-or-since. That might create a serious destabilization in the region, though more of an economic issue as the Federation-Klingon Alliance have two former powers to help recover.

So, in the absence of any other on-screen evidence, within five years of the end of the DW, Starfleet is facing a period of relative peace.

Maybe you can come up with something on the aftermath of the destruction of Romulus...something along the lines of Starfleet helping stabilize the remains of the Star Empire and dealing with threats internal and external. It could have some really nice allegories to the modern "nation building" issues we're dealing with in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by erahard

In addition, the short Selvevian War commented in New Frontier, the disintegration of the Romulan Empire and the Typhon Pact are reasons for the Federation to keep some of their resources in weapons design.

---

The Federation's greatest weapon in any conflict is a stable economy.

Star Trek Online has some interesting plot developments which can be found on the Cryptic website. It's a full timeline of events which has the Gorn going to war with the Klingons and the klingons trying to invade romulan territory. Both Romulus and Remus were destroyed but heres the thing shortly before Hobus blows itself to kingdom come the Remans are rehomed on another planet on the other side of the empire. Starfleet starts to return most of its fleet to exploration and peace keeping.