Help with an understanding of Epic Chronicles.

Folks, I am looking to rationalize to myself the concept and end outcome of Epic Chronicles in terms of RPGing.
Many many moons ago I enjoyed “RPGing” as a teenager, with an early incarnation of DnD, in the “good ol’ ” dungeon bash format – little real focus on ROLE playing, it was just a series of kill the monsters, defeat the bad guys, get the treasure and experience, and do it all again only this time it gets harder… Good simple fun in its time.
I have always been a massive fan of Tolkien and Middle-Earth etc. I don’t need to say more on that, but obviously loved the idea of adventure in a realm I was familiar with.

When Decipher brought all the books out for LOTR I bought the lot, but circumstances never allowed me to get things off the ground.

I now find myself trying to grasp how to “get it all together” as a Narrator for a small family group of players. I was only ever a player in DnD.
One of the difficulties I have was that I had an expectation that, much like old DnD, you got to pop out to your local games store, buy an adventure module, and play it and proceed to the next one.
But things are not like that for Deciphers’ LOTR, especially now that Decipher’s LOTR has gone belly up…(I realise there are many mini adventures in Halls of Fire thanks to the many kind contributors – I’ve just downloaded the entire series, and am busy perusing through this vast amount of info)…

So I have studied the guides to setting and Narration in CRB (the example Carangul series of story arcs with final march on Orc fortresses of the north), but I am left with one odd feeling. It would seem that all major Epic Chronicles are realistically going to eventually mean the downfall of some powerful Adversary and all their minions, in some castle or stronghold.

Now no handful of PCs are going to be able to march up to said stronghold, and wipe out an army of foes, no matter how powerful they are. If they were, then Gandalf and Aragorn et al, would simple have marched on Mordor themselves…
This is not like DnD where you get to do it “room by room.”

So realistically it’s going to take an army to defeat an army.
So does this mean that all Epic Chronicles are going to be about the PC’s “recruiting” said army with its powerful NPC heroes, and sending them on their merry way to battle the bad guy and his army?

If so, how do you ‘role-play’ an army?

After my much earlier RPG experiences I went on to become a wargamer which I have done for many years in differing formats, and recently have also collected extensively GW’s LOTR battle-games rules and figures.

So in theory I could turn the final “showdown”, into a tabletop battle game, and convert the PCs RPG stats, into wargame stats if they wished their PCs to fight in the final battle.

However, it still strikes me as odd, that this would be a necessity. I am sure not all RPGers, are going to have at their disposal hundreds of figures for the final tabletop battle of their Chronicle. I am also fairly sure not all RPGers, are into wargaming. So would they enjoy such a final act to their Chronicles. They’ve role-played all this way to be “forced” to play a tabletop battle game which for them may be an anticlimax to their gaming. (I kind of quite like the idea of marrying the two. But not sure my proposed players would)

So how does it all work in the RPG world?

Does it not have to end in all out war? What are the other ‘ends’ to the Chronicle possible, you can after all, only let the bad guy slip away so many times…

Finally, supposing you get this to work, then have to start another Chronicle, you are basically repeating the whole, but in another bit of Middle Earth with another Adversary. How many times can you (the PCs) be the instigator in rallying the armies of the Elves, Men and Dwarves against the menace? At the ‘Meta’ level are the PC’s eventually going to feel like some kind of global policeman of Middle- Earth?

Would this constitute the PCs effective gaining the lofty heights of “The Wise”, and probably no longer remaining as PCs, but perhaps become NPCs, that future PCs may call upon for aid?

I apologize for the length of this post. I also would be grateful for any in sights, on being a Narrator, and running Epic Chronicles, any links to peruse, and finally, where can I go to “Narrators School”? ;-)
I feel like I need to go back to University to learn all this stuff properly!

Kind regards
Scott

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Originally Posted by jscottbowman

However, it still strikes me as odd, that this would be a necessity. I am sure not all RPGers, are going to have at their disposal hundreds of figures for the final tabletop battle of their Chronicle. I am also fairly sure not all RPGers, are into wargaming. So would they enjoy such a final act to their Chronicles. They’ve role-played all this way to be “forced” to play a tabletop battle game which for them may be an anticlimax to their gaming. (I kind of quite like the idea of marrying the two. But not sure my proposed players would)

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If they've played their way through to this point, why change the rules? Are their tactical choices on the battlefield the point? It wasn't in LotR–the distraction at the Black Gate at the end just allowed the moral drama between Frodo, Sam and Gollum to play out at Mount Doom.

I'd suggest looking at human-scale goals and individually accomplishable tasks set against the backdrop of these huge, clashing, world-scale events. Perhaps, while the army lays siege to the mountain fastnesses single fortified bridge (and one or two characters lead a charge to slay the dragon guarding that bridge), one or two others climb a secret stair through the peaks into a tower to rescue the elf princess. Or slay the degraded king whose twisted oaths bind the army of the dead to his service. Or whatever.

Also, you can look at different frameworks for what your heroes might want to accomplish. Maybe instead of defending a kingdom, they're founding one. Maybe they are policemen–Rangers tasked with bringing justice to the communities on the edge of Gondor's reach.

Anyway, I'm having trouble pinpointing exactly what your overall question is, but I'm not sure there it one–it sounds like you just seem overwhelmed by your own expectations for what a chronicle is supposed to be.

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Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King

I'd suggest looking at human-scale goals and individually accomplishable tasks set against the backdrop of these huge, clashing, world-scale events. Perhaps, while the army lays siege to the mountain fastnesses single fortified bridge (and one or two characters lead a charge to slay the dragon guarding that bridge), one or two others climb a secret stair through the peaks into a tower to rescue the elf princess. Or slay the degraded king whose twisted oaths bind the army of the dead to his service. Or whatever.

Also, you can look at different frameworks for what your heroes might want to accomplish. Maybe instead of defending a kingdom, they're founding one. Maybe they are policemen–Rangers tasked with bringing justice to the communities on the edge of Gondor's reach.

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I agree completely with TDK's suggestions. Not every Chronicle has to be a war chronicle. Similarly, even in a war chronicle, not every adventure has to be directly related to the war. Find something else for your heroes to do.

For example, Frodo and Sam took to the Ring to Mordor. They didn't get involved in massive battles along the way, even though they were going on. During the battle of Minas Tirith, Gandalf was busy for part of the time saving Faramir from Denethor.

I guess the point is, the focus should be on the PC's and their, as TDK said, human-scale goals rather than the epic battle that's going on. As long as the PC's are doing something, the players will have fun. In fact, in my experience, the players often have less fun when they are running a large battle. Most of the time, they'd rather be infiltrating the castle or whatever. I hope that helps, though most of it was a bit of a rehash of what TDK said. ;)

Hey Scott,

I will add my own thoughts here to see if they can help... answering your questions (in navy blue) as they were posed.

So I have studied the guides to setting and Narration in CRB (the example Carangul series of story arcs with final march on Orc fortresses of the north), but I am left with one odd feeling. It would seem that all major Epic Chronicles are realistically going to eventually mean the downfall of some powerful Adversary and all their minions, in some castle or stronghold.

So does this mean that all Epic Chronicles are going to be about the PC’s “recruiting” said army with its powerful NPC heroes, and sending them on their merry way to battle the bad guy and his army?

First let me start with 'Adversary'... an adversary can be anything - a raiding band of thieves, a warg-led pack of wolves, an evil hearted huorn that is effecting a local grove of trees, or a contentious noble within the court who has aspirations and the PC's are in the way. Or, it can be a massive dragon, a wight, a vampire, a nazgul... and the PC's just might need to raise an army against it. No matter what it is, it should be relative to the current strength of the PC's (advancement-wise) so as to be a challenge, but one that can be achieved.

Remember there are more skills listed on the character sheets besides armed combat and evolve a story that will take into account multiple skill checks.

Example... in one of the chapters of my Chronicles of the North, a noble in the court of Arthedain is attempting to do a land grab from his neighbor (one of the PC's). To do this, he plots a murder via an assassin and leaves clues to credit the PC with the killing. The other players then need to investigate the murder to find some way of saving their companion and his lands. It is winter in Fornost, and the king is gone from the throne - he winters in the land of the Elves and his location is the utmost secret, so as not to allow the Enemy any chance to ambush him in his travels. With the king away, the PC's have the time to gather the information that they need... sometimes at sword point.

You need to remember the men from the West were not always the noble-spirited heroes that Tolkien shows us in Aragorn. It was the Numenorians who conquered realms in Middle-earth and brought all the wealth back to their island. It was the Dunedain that waged war on one another to claim the throne in the north, and in the south.

Lastly on this, don't encapsulate the words 'epic chronicle' in one adventure. An epic is made up of many chapters and events. The more linear your story line is, and its consistancy with past events, will allow your PC's to slowly feel that they are affecting the realm around them for good, while the dark powers of Sauron are always pushing in on their borders.


If so, how do you ‘role-play’ an army?

Well, if you do have an army rallied, I suggest you use the rules in the Rohan supplement to help you with running armies. If you prefer moving your game to mini's, do that instead. Bottom line, make the clash of armies as the back drop to whatever your PC's are doing (as was suggested above).

Example... in one of the chapters of my Chronicles of the North, two of the PC's were dwarves and they were aiding in the defense of a keep on the borders of Angmar. They stood at the gates as they were broken and orcs and a troll burst through, and we roleplayed out that conflict. The rest of the battle was controlled by me, rolling dice and determining successes for both sides. The duration of the battle I maintained the idea and feeling of absolute desperation for the players and their army. It made every lost soldier, and wounded PC, more of a concern then just looking at numbers being reduced on a piece of paper.


Does it not have to end in all out war? What are the other ‘ends’ to the Chronicle possible, you can after all, only let the bad guy slip away so many times…

Wars are fun. Do they need to be part of every adventure in Lord of the Rings, or any campaign world for that matter? No.

I have given two examples of my game above and here is another... the first four chapters of the chronicle were about the Plague that raged up from the north in the mid of the Third Age. The PC's, desperate for help as they watched their families and friends dying, were tasked to go to Rivendell to see if the legendary Elrond could help them. Their path north was filled with fearful events with sickness, dead villages, and the occassional bad guys (hungry rogues, wolves, raiding orcs, etc.) It was my goal to convey a feeling of loneliness - empty land, quiet empty towns, and so on... almost Stephen King-esque.

Finally, when they get to Elrond, he aids with a plant that grows in the wilds of the Trollshaws. The PC's must now go to collect it so that they can take it back to their home town and cure the sick. The Witch-king hears of these 'heroes' and decides to stymie their progress. Also, one of the PC's keeps having visions of his father and an unknown women in a circle of light that keeps telling him he must save the bloodline.

It turns out that the prince of Arthedain has succumbed to the sickness and the PC's hear about it. Now they have to literally decide to either go home to save their loved ones, or take the leaves to Fornost and save the king's son - the line which Aragorn shall one day be born from (not that they know this, although a certain visioned woman in light hints at it over and over again).

Needless to say, all their hard work and struggles to get Rivendell, then to the Trollshaws to collect the plants, and finally a terrible decision of who must be sacrificed... well, let's just say the players felt that they were part of an epic.

Through it all, there were overwhelming feelings but not forces. There were skirmishes, but no major battles - and there were no armies. The PC's did not even have to face off against the Witch-king - just his occassional lackeys that he would dispatch against them. But his evil was always felt.


Finally, supposing you get this to work, then have to start another Chronicle, you are basically repeating the whole, but in another bit of Middle Earth with another Adversary. How many times can you (the PCs) be the instigator in rallying the armies of the Elves, Men and Dwarves against the menace? At the ‘Meta’ level are the PC’s eventually going to feel like some kind of global policeman of Middle- Earth?

You always want to have another story up your sleeve for when your current adventure is over, but it does not need to be repetitive. Creativity is one of the key elements of GM'ing and story-telling, but ultimately it is your job to set a stage and let the PC's play on that stage. Sometimes you will drive the story, but for the players to really feel like they are living characters, they will also be directing.

This said, if they feel the desire to move across the map and aid in conflicts against the powers of Sauron then do it. If your players are happy, then you are doing a good job. But as GM, you always need to have that thread in the game that they can pull that will unravel an entirely different kind of story - i.e. the murder plot I talked about above.

I can say the coolest thing about that story was that the PC's achieved their goals with words alone. I was totally blown out of my seat by a character who did nothing more than plant a seed in the antagonist's brain that his own plot had worked against him. He inferred that the king had returned, took claim of all of Durgil's lands, and that by taking Durgil's sister as wife was now nothing more than a charitable action for the woman was penniless. As GM, my jaw did the proverbial drop because they had pulled the carpet completely out from under this guy's dark motives. It was great!


Would this constitute the PCs effective gaining the lofty heights of “The Wise”, and probably no longer remaining as PCs, but perhaps become NPCs, that future PCs may call upon for aid?

Over time, PC's that survive the dangers of Middle-earth should definitely become the heroes of their times. I mean, why not? Some of the best times me and my buddies will have is when we sit and recount the exploits of our high-level characters and what they did in their attainment of lofty positions.


I apologize for the length of this post. I also would be grateful for any in sights, on being a Narrator, and running Epic Chronicles, any links to peruse, and finally, where can I go to “Narrators School”?

I know of no school, but I welcome you to read the compilations of our game sessions that I have posted on my website. You will see the slow transition of my style in how I wrote them up - the first few PDF's are very choppy and mechanical, bad grammer, etc. But by around chapter four, we got in our groove and had all of the player interactions reading like a book.

To finish, and as I have advised in previous posts - I recommend you stay away from the period of Bilbo, Frodo, and the Lord of the Rings. I suggest an early period in Middle-earth. The Third Age offers Gandalf and the other wizards through all but 800 years. It offers the realms of the Dunedain during their triumphant rise and desperate falls. There are dragons; Nazgul; vampires; werewolves; wights; bad men; and orcs and many can act independently of Sauron depending on the years. Lastly, it gives a time for your player characters to rise to heroes that were never spoken of in canon. You can do what you want as long as you keep limited interference with the major events of Tolkien's story.

I hope this helped...

Tomcat

Guys,
I'd like to thank you all for your helpful comments and suggestions, especially Tomcat for such a lengthy discourse.
I guess I am perhaps feeling a little overwhelmed; first time Narrator, and no easy bought series of modules to churn through. I have to figure it all out for myself, so to speak, with the PCs help as you suggest.

I have an idea for a starting campaign now, I have a pair of hobbit nobles (My wife and son), assisted by their NPC (me) Hobbit servant, and am toying with the idea of loosely involving my young 4 year old daughter as the accompanying pet guard tracker dog (see can say "woof" whenever she wants, and roll dice when handed to her. If she gets bored, the dog can switch to my NPC use.)

The starting adventure hook, is a missing Bounder of the northern border, who fails to complete his round. This is not terribly worrisome in itself as he may have been distracted by the home-brewed ales of a local border farmer. However to double check, a sheriff is dispatched to make sure all is well.

The bounder has surprised a raiding party of orcs, slain one with a arrow through the neck, but been killed by the others. His body and the dead orc left in the field. But the orcs return to their camp to be growled at by their captain, to go back and hide the evidence, as they are just supposed to be gathering info for a bigger raid.

On their return the orcs and sheriff surprise each other. Sheriff realises he can't beat the orcs and flees. The orcs recover their wits, and chase after him, catching him up. Rather than kill him they decide to take him prisoner, to extract info about the shire from him.

A ranger has had the orcs camp and activities under observation for some time but has been outnumbered and unable to act by himslef, so has remained watchful, gathering his own info.

So the PCs have to discover the bodies and tracks, and rescue the Sheriff. En route I may throw in other wild encounters.
The ranger will come to help them, now he has the PCs backup. Then must away to Rivendell to report, while he leaves them to investigate further in his absence...

That's kinda where I am up to so far...

This could lead into a version of the Margil story in Narrators screen, which would lead into the Carangul style tale eventually. I haven't quite decided yet.

Oh well, wish me luck.

And thanks again for the help and encouragement.

regards
Scott