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In the Voyager episode "Hope and Fear" the alien Arturis has an ability to pick up languages faster than dust :)
I want to use this idea for a race in the game and I don't feel the Language Ability trait from the core rules really gets the job done.
Anyone have anythoughts on this?
Well having discussed this in detail over ICQ. I would like to share the rejected concept.
Its a new Specialisation, that other people might be able to make use of.
Social Sciences (Linguistics); The study of languages and its various froms. This skill allows its practitioner to take apart a language by syntax and definition and allow them to recontruct and even apply the language in a practical environment. Successful application of this skill will allow its user to develop and understand and develop new languages far easier.
This skill is compatible with the Language Ability advantage.
Note; I imagine that Hoshi on Enterprise would have this specialisation in combination to a good Intellect and Language Ability. Seing that much of her work is academical combined with talent, rather than simply talent.
An advantage could do the trick as well IMHO. This would be something similar to Eidetic Memory; instead of allowing somebody to remember everything s/he witnesses, this would allows them to grasp very quickly the basis of a language.
I'd make that a +3 advantage, and maybe impose an Intellect test to see how fast the character is able to understand the language.
Or maybe the advantage would only add to the skill in the same way Language ability is used with a language skill.
If you want to use this in your game, then why don't you just go ahead and do it? As long as no PC or important recurring NPC in your game has this ability, why bother about the rules at all? It was a plot device on VOY and IMHO there's nothing wrong with using it the same way in a role-playing game.Quote:
Originally posted by Captain Zymmer
I want to use this idea for a race in the game and I don't feel the Language Ability trait from the core rules really gets the job done.
Well. I got the impression from the ICQ conversation that this was for a character...
However, the arguement to develop the rules, even for an NPC species is the players. As the Narrator its our part to share a new and exciting story with the players. But who knows what will pique their interest...
Say I introduce a species of 7 foot combat hulks as this weeks species bad guy, and the next week a player comes to me with a concept for a character from that species that he would like to play... Now unless I have the vaguest idea of how to translate this species into a fair starting character matters will be unbalanced...
Thats a pretty extreme view, but my general point.
When Aslan and I were chatting about this, I gave two opinions. The first was based on game mechanics, which harped on about this as an advantage (Aslans idea) allowing a player to make an Intellect test to try and use the language, every sentence.
The rules for that would need to reflect the fact that the players was gambling on using a skill they didn't have every turn (effectively)...
However, the skill concerned, is Language, and from experience, I have found that this is a particularly passive skill in my games with a +1 skill level seeming to confer total fluency...
In my mind skill levels represnt (with regards to foreign languages);
Language Level 1 - Basic. Halting and basic, you can make yourself understood, and even know a few key phrases, but a speech or conversation will be too much.
Language Level 2 - Fluent. You can speak the language and hold your own. Accents still give you away, but you are trying. Reading/Writing is fairly good here.
Language Level 3 - Accent. You have started developing an ear for the language and can sub-divide regional accents and dialects, and have even started adding accent to your spoken skills.
Language Level 4 - Author. Your spoken language is perfect, and it would be difficult to tell you from a local from voice alone. Your literary skills are improved enough to read and write with total fluency, composing complex literary pieces.
Language Level 5 and 6 - Master. You are a great playwright, author, master of the language renowned for your complex wordplay and clever use of language.
As I said, in my games Language has become more of a passive skill, especially alongside Universal Translators, so those descriptions give a rough idea of how the player uses the language at the various skill levels (Most commonly Level 2 for native, and level 1 for oreign...)
Dan, I like your take on the Language skill and IMO the different levels of skill could be used as a basis for an advantage that covers Aslans problem.
New Advantage: Natural Linguist +2/+4/+6
You can pick up new languages much faster than most people. In game terms this advantage allows you to make an untrained skill check for the Language Skill, which is otherwise prohibited by the rules. You must have had a chance to study the language in question for at least a few hours before you can use your talent as a Natural Linguist, the exact amount of time depends on the complexity of a given language and any relation it might have to a language you already know. For very complex languages the Narrator can require an Intellect check on the part of the Natural Linguist before he allows this advantage to take effect.
This advantage can be taken at 3 different levels (+2/+4/+6). All work the same as stated above, but confer different levels of ability in the language used (if the untrained Language skill check succeeds):
+2: Basic level - You can make yourself understood, but fluent conversation is not possible.
+4: Fluent - You can speak the language, but accents still give you away. Fluent conversation is possible, but complex technical or scientific matters might be beyond you.
+6: Advanced - Conversations are no problem for you, and you can even hold your own in talks about highly complex and/or unusual subjects. Your accent is barely noticeable.
Limitations:
While this advantage allows you good spoken command of a language it doesn't automatically allow you to read/write a language. In addition this talent for languages does not necessarily allow you to learn languages faster then other people can.
Dan G...
With regard to Skill Level 1, "Pidgin" (not "pigeon" - that's a type of bird) is not really appropriate. "Basic," as in basic comprehension, would be more correct. A pidgin is not a language spoken at a low level of fluency, it's a new language created by fusing the vocabulary of two languages with the grammar of one of the two. For instance, South Seas Pidgin uses mostly English vocabulary, but Polynesian grammar. HRH Prince Philip's favourite ceremonial title is a South Seas Pidgin title - "Numbah One Bigfellah Bilong Missus Queen."
How about just a plain racial ability...hear a language...speak a language at 1. Sort of a living universal translator. It should be in the +5 advantage range.
I did it as a +2 ability called Inate Linguistic Ability. She starts off at a high difficulty and makes successive rolls until it drops to routine and then she can speak the lingo.
Racial ability, done and done ;)
Thanks Owen.Quote:
Originally posted by Owen E Oulton
Dan G...
With regard to Skill Level 1, "Pidgin" (not "pigeon" - that's a type of bird) is not really appropriate. "Basic," as in basic comprehension, would be more correct. A pidgin is not a language spoken at a low level of fluency, it's a new language created by fusing the vocabulary of two languages with the grammar of one of the two. For instance, South Seas Pidgin uses mostly English vocabulary, but Polynesian grammar. HRH Prince Philip's favourite ceremonial title is a South Seas Pidgin title - "Numbah One Bigfellah Bilong Missus Queen."
The alterations are made. They say you learn something knew everyday. This will be 2 things for Sunday then... I had always thought of Pidgin was a sawn off version of a Language (and claerly didn't know about the change in spelling)...
Does anyone know how that relates to a Patois?
I know that is sort of a mish-mash language style as well, most common in Jamaica.
Learning is cool and fun! :D
Hello...former intelligeence linguist here.
Patois: this is a linguistic amalgam of languages found in a 'contact zone' -- an area where a native language (say, Zulu, Zhosa, etc...meets another language from an encroaching group -- say, the Dutch. You've got primitive Afrikaans.) Good examples: Hong Kong English, Spanglish, Quebec has a French/English pastiche; Upper Hebredies have a REALLY screwed up Gaelic/English patois; French Creole, etc...
Owen's bit on South Seas Pidgin is a patois. Pidgin is pretty much synonymous with patois.
Lancer's 'Natural Linguist' idea is a good one, especially with the levels. I would be a +2 -- I pick up the basics fast but without constant usage lose vocabulary quickly. Somebody like Richard Burton would be a +6: dip him in a place for more than a few days and he's speaking at low proficiency rate.
Someting to aid people here:
Defense Language Institute language difficulty ratings:
Level 1. REally damn easy. Tagalog's the only one, I believe.
Level 2: Romance Languages. They have a relatively easy structure and relatively few irregularities.
Level 3: Germanic/Slavic Languages are mostly Level 3. Still pretty similar in the subject-action-other structure, but they have differing alphabet systems and are a major hastle about verb forms and irregularities. (Like the German ability to make a paragraph one word...breath, my pasty friend!)
Level 4: The annoying stuff... Semitic/Asian languages fall into this for the most part. Differing alphabets or pictographic representation (Chinese kanji, for example); different sentence structure from the Western tradition (ex. Arabic has an action-subject-object-other structure...yes...they think backward. Direct translations make you sound like Yoda.)
Level 5: Only one...English. Hey, it takes most of us 12-18 years to even get close to fluency...if you don't speak ebonics.
PRoficiency ratings: (given for reading/writting/speaking[the one most people do most poorly in])
1. Basic comprehension. You have some knowledge of the structure and some vocabulary...you can yell help and maybe order a burger. Don't even try describing things.
1+. As above but you can handle basic concepts and ideas. You still screw up a lot!
2. Proficiency. You can get around and make yourself understood with some difficulty.
2+. Proficiency. As with 2, but you can handle most everyday situations. You speak very properly...a dead giveaway you ain't from these parts.
3. Fluency. You're about as good as most speakers, but still have an accent and occasional trouble with grammar/slang that gives you away.
3+. Fluency. As with three, but you handle slang and accent problems well. Some people might not realize you're not a native.
4. Advanced fluency or 'didn't I go to school with you?' You can handle slang and multiple dialects -- this isn't identifying accents, you can usually do that at level 2/2+. You can sound like you're from different regions yourself.
4+. Advanced fluency. You might as well have been born there.
5. Don't know anybody who ever got this high.
Thanks. I like the idea myself, especialy since I came up with it at the spur of a moment. ;)Quote:
Originally posted by qerlin
Lancer's 'Natural Linguist' idea is a good one, especially with the levels
Some of the Asian languages actually have grammar easier to learn then in most Slavic/Germanic languages with rather uncomplicated sentence structures. I am not a linguist myself, but that goes at least for Japanese and the Chinese languages, AFAIK.Quote:
Level 4: The annoying stuff... Semitic/Asian languages fall into this for the most part. Differing alphabets or pictographic representation (Chinese kanji, for example); different sentence structure from the Western tradition (ex. Arabic has an action-subject-object-other structure...yes...they think backward. Direct translations make you sound like Yoda.)
Lancer: I'm compiling a complete Advantages/Disadvantages/Skills list which I may (someday) submit to TrekRPG.net and post on my own website.
May I use your Natural Linguist advantage in that list?
Giving you full credit of course... :)
For the Linquestic skill/advantage, you might want to reduce the XP cost for buying langages. That will allow the character to improve with languages more quickly. Some options for this could be:
SKill based: After so many succesfful language skill tests the narrator could dropn the cost in improving languages by a point.
Lingiustic Ability: probably drop the cost a point or by one-half. For advantages that can be taken at multiple levels, probably a 1 point per level or advatage makes sense, to a minimum of 1 point per skill level.