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Question: Why does everybody hate ST Voyager and her captain Janeway?
(Disclaimer: I'm Spanish but I've lived in France for some years now, and neither in France nor in Spain Star Trek is very popular in TV, I mean, I did watched TNG, and some DS9, but AFAIK, DS9 never passed fully in Spanish TV, and Voyager never arrived. And in France, I think they are not in any TV right now So I've never watched Voyager. My question is a sincere question, not a troll )
Horacio
Okay. You want a clear, well reasoned response. And English is not your native language.Quote:
Originally posted by horacio
Question: Why does everybody hate ST Voyager and her captain Janeway?
I'll rise to that challenge. If I lose you along the way, let me know.
First, not everybody does hate Voyager, but a lot of people do. I think I'm firmly on the "don't like" side of the line.
First and foremost, Voyager felt like a broken promise. When it was going to be coming out, it was sold as the story of a ship stranded far from home and slowly trying to get back. Many of us thought that meant a fairly serial show.
Serial: appearing in successive parts at regular intervals.
successive: continuous, consecutive, following
In a serial show, events in previous episodes affect the current episode, and stories begun in one episode may not be resolved until a later one. Soap operas are serial shows.
All shows are serial to some degree. Near the end of the first season of TNG, Tasha Yar dies. She is dead in all the episodes that follow. (Well, all those that don't involve time travel or alternate universes.:))
The opposite of serial is episodic.
episodic: happening at regular intervals.
Basicly, a story serial is one continuous story told in little parts, where an episodic story is a collection of self-contained stories.
The danger of becoming too serial is that people have a hard time joining the story if they do not know all of what came before.
Anyway, a lot of us expected Voyager to be more serial than it was.
So, a lot of us went in unhappy and looking for trouble.
Voyager seemed to have more than its fair share of mistakes, too. Everything from one character consistantly wearing the wrong rank insignia to different episodes giving very different numbers for the size of the crew, to one character's age changing from episode to episode. Then there's the effects shots that didn't match the dialogue.
The show was often inconsistant with itself, much less the other shows.
Then the producer(s) said something about how continuity was not important.
The whole basis for the success of things like the Encyclopedia is that we, the Trek fans, are largely obsessive geeks who memorize all the tiny details of the show. WE know the names of all the ensigns who appeared on Kirk's Enterprise. Continuity is important to US.
Now, every one of the show has had its mistakes. I used to yell at the screen when TNG was screwing up. But here we had the guys in charge telling us that they weren't even TRYING to get it right. We..... We became very upset, and began to point out every tiny flaw in the show.
I'm going to break here and discuss Janeway seperately.
What makes people mad about Janeway?
Well, a lot of us feel she was not written consistantly. One reviewer suggested she was 2 different characters who shared a body: Momma Janeway and Action Kate.
Simply put, when Janeway was being feminine and motherly, she also was thinking with her heart and not her head, and tended to make poor decisions. And when Janeway was being action-oriented, she thought with her ... testosterone instead of her head, and tended to make poor decisions.
(I should mention here that Kirk thought with his testosterone a lot, too. I have heard Action Kate called Kirk in a "woman suit".)
Generally, if Janeway made a poor decision, nothing bad happened to her as a result. Some people suggest that this means it was not a "poor decision". I think, however, that if the Captain tortures a prisoner to extract information, the fact that the First Officer did not arrest her and relieve her of command cannot be construed as justifying her actions.
I have read several well thought out articles that illustrate that Janeway's behavior, taken as a whole, indicates certain extreme mental disorders. I can also name 2 incidents off the top of my head that should have resulted in her being relieved of command. And there's a basketfull of charges that would require a Court Martial when she got back. (Note that a Court Martial is just an investigation, not a conviction of wrongdoing.)
I have heard a convincing case that Janeway was intentionally mis-writen a propaganda for the idea that women should not be in command.
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When all is said and done, most of our anger is frustration. We thought it was going to be better than it was, and we tried to point out mistakes, and what we got for our efforts was not an attempt to make a better product for us but rather the message that we were annoying and they didn't care if they made mistakes.
I have compared us to the enabler in an abusive spousal relationship (That is, the wife/husband who is beaten by a violent husband/wife): We can't change them. They are going to keep doing this stuff to us until we leave. And yet we stay, hoping they'll change.
Excellent analysis Spyone!
Your pretty much answered the question the way I would have.
One thing I think may be happening is that you are hearing the Sheep on the InternetQuote:
Originally posted by horacio
Question: Why does everybody hate ST Voyager and her captain Janeway?
Sheep- A group or individual who follows.
It became very fashionable to slam Voyager and a large number of slammers did not bother to watch most of the episodes, but were quick to join in on the slamming (See trolls).
I agree with "spyone" on most (Not all :D ) of what he said. I actually liked Voyager, but some of it, I will admit, was annoying. One annoying fact was that character development came to a standstill when 37DD of Nine entered the show. Every other episode was based upon Seven and, rumor has it, Kate was not pleased.
However, if you have the chance, watch Voyager. Don’t go into it with any preconceptions, just watch. Star Trek is great because it teaches a lesson and most episodes did just that.
I didn't like Voyager.
Not cause I'm a sheep, just a matter of personal taste. It didn't work for me. I like Enterprise though. Baaaaahhhhhhh.....
Seriously, for me, the simple reason is I didn't particularly enjoy most of the episodes I saw. Not being into inflicting pain on myself, I didn't even come close to seeing every episode. Some I enjoyed. (for example, "Year of Hell" or "Someone to Watch Over Me") But for the most part, it just didn't grab me.
I don't quite know why. I suspect if more episodes had been like "Year of Hell", with a ship showing the effects of being stranded in the Delta Quadrant, I suspect I may have enjoyed the show a bit more. That may be what didn't work for me in a larger sense - they seemed to ignore the true impact of being far away from home - no questioning of long-term goals, absolute loyalty in a captain, etc. Not saying it should have had a mutiny (heck, maybe it did), but some serious questions may have made it better for me.
As for hating Janeway, I didn't particularly hate her. I found myself wishing she could be written more consistently - total confidence one week, plagued by doubt the next. Absolute Starfleet prim and proper one week, willing to threaten prisoners with torture the next. Kate Mulgrew did a fine job with delivery, I just wish she had more consistent material to deliver. A flawed captain filled with doubt about her actions, but only confiding in Tuvok would have made a fine premise - they showed that once or twice if I recall correctly and it really worked for me. A super-captain, perevering in horrible adversity would have worked fine too. (Yes, I'm sure others may have seen consistency I didn't and that's fine, this is my personal taste.)
What really failed for me was the magic techno solution. Late TNG and early DS9 suffered from problems with technobabble but for me, Voyager was the master of this - too many episodes dependent on altering this, modulating that, etc. Maybe it wasn't as bad as TNG or DS9, but it felt like it was worse - could have been due to years of technobabble burnout for all I know. :D
I'm not trying to dismiss anyone who did like Voyager - it really is a matter of personal preference. Me, I just didn't like it too much. It is possible I saw a disproportionate number of bad episodes, like I said, I wasn't a regular viewer after season one, but I did tune in if I was free and in the mood to watch - I probably saw about a third of all episodes after season one. And some I did like - otherwise I wouldn't have tortured myself to tune in it at all.
But, then again, maybe I'm just a sheep. Baaahhhhhhhhhhh. :rolleyes:
Just a clarification…
I did not mean to address anyone individual on these boards. In fact, most people here are well informed and I value their opinions. Especially the ones that are contrary to mine and make me think.Quote:
Originally posted by Dan Stack
I didn't like Voyager.
Not cause I'm a sheep, just a matter of personal taste. It didn't work for me. I like Enterprise though. Baaaaahhhhhhh.....
Dan. I never intended to call you (Or any one individual) a sheep. I was speaking to the mob mentally that sometimes happens to a group of people who get real bold on the other end of a keyboard.
However, I love the “Baaaaahhhhhhh!!!”
You sure you don’t have a fluffy, white coat?
However… Qui s’excuse s’accuse? (Just kidding, just wanted to use a little of my college money to throw in a little catch phrase)
Don't worry, wasn't offended, was actually amused.
I am firmly entrenched in the "Liked it" camp. I certainly wasn't expecting a Serial style show, none of the others have been why should this been any different?Quote:
Originally posted by spyone
I have read several well thought out articles that illustrate that Janeway's behavior, taken as a whole, indicates certain extreme mental disorders. I can also name 2 incidents off the top of my head that should have resulted in her being relieved of command. And there's a basketfull of charges that would require a Court Martial when she got back. (Note that a Court Martial is just an investigation, not a conviction of wrongdoing.)
As to the above....here we go again with the torture. Well, I guess torture is in the eye of the beholder. That episode was on not too long ago, and I made it a point to watch it very carefully, in case I had missed something the first time I had seen it. As some here like dictionary definitions;
Torture:the act of inflicting excruciating pain.
I'm sorry I seemed to have missed the red hot pokers and the rack.
I'm not convinced that she wouldn't have turned the field back on, Chakotay just jumped the gun. And to the Courts Marital, everyone has said that is what should happen after she got home. I made this challenge before...give me a list of charges (specific)? I can think of a few times Picard broke the Prime Directive and nothing happened to him. Kirk should have been thrown in the brig on multiple occasions, but he wasn't. Oh and I would like to know this list of "extreme mental disorders." And where was this rank insignia problem?
As to the comments about the foolish remarks the producers made I agree with you.
Now, back to the question at hand...Sort of. Why I liked Voyager.
1)Because it was Trek. It went back to its roots...Exploration. New races, worlds and story ideas. Granted writing and continuity could have been better, but at least Voyager is light years beyond Enterprise.
2) Janeway,
-she put two very different crews together and merged them into a cohesive team.
-she knew how hold the team together.
-she at least seemed to "agonize" over a decision to break the Prime Directive. Picard and Kirk broke it when ever a situation didn't go their way.
-she could be tough and compassionate.
-As the other Captains, she was a good leader.
-She had the quality of instant action like Kirk, and the forward thinking of Picard.
-And the bottom line she got her people home.
The Rank insignia Problem lay with Tuvok.
He started as a Lieutenant Commander, quietly dropped back to a lieutenant, and then they made a point of promoting him...
Again, this is something that is unfairly squared at Voyager with eXACTLY the same problem leveled at Lieutenant/Ensign/Chief O'Brien through TNG and DS9...
And people wonder why Brage gets annoyed at the nit-picking!!!
Fair Warning:
I am not a Treckie. Trek is my "If nothing else SciFi/Action runs" series. I hate TOS (and dislike Shattner unless as a yoke like "Miss Congeniality") and the early years of TNG. Only after Roddenberry left the chair did IMHO the series/uinivers pick up speed. I like DS9 (but find the Cardassia Scene lame) and found the latest movie great! I don't care about minor details but big stuff needs a good explanation. My "Mark" are Series like "Babylon 5" and "StarGate" when it comes to continuity.
VOYAGER - If you want B/W answer, I hated it!
If you accept shades of grey, here are some problems I have with the show.
a) Not enough charakter development
A ship a few decades away from home, a mixed crew and (aside from B'Elane/Paris) basically nothing happens until the 7th year?
An ex-criminal with a list of offences against the code (Paris) gets promoted yet the hard working&far straighter guy does not?
A mixed StraightFleet (er StarFleet) and criminal crew and almost no interfacing problems? No "F... you Mr Tuvok-Spy?"
No disciplin problems? Come on, passing by quite a few "nice" planets and no one ever though of staying?
Most charakter development was done with background charakters like the Holodoc or 7of9 and guest stars (Troy can get quite mean.... ;) )
b) To much "Resets" / Continuity problems
Much to often they bring the ship close to destruction and/or kill an important crewmember only to use a "shower scene"[1] or "timetravel/parallel dimension stuff" to negate the story
More than once the developed/steal a tech that is useful only to loose/forget it.
If you want to be able to kill some charakters and/or harm the ship, either take a bigger ship (Ambassador i.e) or find some other solution (After all they already had a factory ship in tow)[2]
The torpedo/shuttle/ressources problem was either overplayed (Season 1) or totally ignored later on
c) Not much pre-planning
I always get the impression that the series was not planned out. Not even in rough details. That they didn't know the end when they started, nor any mayor landmarks
d) To small a ship
A bigger ship or a small convoi (They could have set the start in the mid of the DominoWar) Sure, been done[3] but it allows for more variety. Same with a bigger ship - more "Redshirts" and "Semi-Regulars"
Michael
[1] Dallas! anybody
[2] Okay, maybe they shared one with GALACTICA. Not much diffenrence between Shuttles&VIPERS - both end up broken alot!
[3] On the other hand Mulgrew already had the deep, sonor voice...
I agree with the fact that Kathryn Janeway was inconsistently written, and of course that is not Kate Mulgrew's fault. In one episode, B'elanna practically leads a mutiny and she basically gets told to "go to your quarters and think bad thoughts about yourself". Tom Paris violates an order and the Prime Suggestion -er- Directive to save an alien civilization and he gets busted back to Ensign and spends 30 days in the brig!
BUT...on the whole, I think Voyager was ok. I can see people's point about not showing all the hardships the ship and crew would likely have faced in the Delta Quadrant, but then again if every episode had been a desparate struggle for survival, that would have gotten rather old after awhile.
I liked Seven of Nine, and not just for her looks. (I personally wish she would have worn a Starfleet Uniform and not the ubiquitous bunny suit that she seems to have teleported through time to T'Pol...). I thought the character idea was interesting and I feel that Jeri Ryan is a good actress; I remember the episode where Seven was reliving the memories of some of the species and people she helped assimilate..I thought she did a great job, on a par with Brent Spiner's performance in the episode of TNG with Masaka.
And there were characters I really liked. I liked Tuvok a lot; Tim Russ played an excellent Vulcan. I liked Harry Kim, and of course the Doctor.
Allen
True Star Trek is not enough popular in France to grant it a widespread airing on some major TV channel. However If you have access to cable TV, the canal Jimmy channel airs 2 DS9 episode a week (the second season will begin next week), and one episode of TNG a week (we're in the end of the first seasons).Quote:
Originally posted by horacio
(Disclaimer: I'm Spanish but I've lived in France for some years now, and neither in France nor in Spain Star Trek is very popular in TV, I mean, I did watched TNG, and some DS9, but AFAIK, DS9 never passed fully in Spanish TV, and Voyager never arrived. And in France, I think they are not in any TV right now
They already aired: all TOS, all TNG, all DS9, and the first 2 seasons of VGR then they had to stop because they need the original program to be off so that the prices go down enough for their budget (wich is the reason why we surely won't see Enterprise before a long, long, long time).
About Voyager and why I don't like it while I only saw two seasons:
1) no continuity, something happening in one episode will have no consequence in the following one.
2) the premise was abandonned, while in the first episode they insist on having no starbase to refill, no facility to repair, major problem with energy management, a limited set of torpedoes, all of this has been forgotten by the second episode. If you combine this problem with point 1) you'll have Voyager ebing half destroyed in one episode and brand new in the next.
3) character inconsistencies, the author plant seeds that never devellops, in the pilot Paris and Chakotay are supposed to know each other and have field experience together, this has neve rbeen (to my knowledge) exploited, and the list goes on...
4) the Janeway syndrom wich goes far beyond character inconsistencies.
All in all there are good moments, and good episode, but the majority are very disapointing.
Paris and Chakotay worked very briefly together in the Maquis, I got the impression it was a very short relationship and not worth further mention.
Nonetheless it's the base of all of their scenes in the pilot.