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Doug or Don, et al --
I'm not sure if this has been covered already, but do Enlisted personnel have professional skills of any kind? From what I gathered from the sidebar on p. 65, I'd say enlisted characters have no professional skills, and must either take the Innovative edge or stay in long enough to qualify for an elite profession (which is what I would consider as the crewman earning his commission) to gain any.
Is this accurate?
That's a good question, Sea Tyger. we were wondering the same thing ourselves. For teh time being, we've been using the same skill packages as the starfleet officer, but without the starfleet officer abilities available...though I would suppose they could use 'starship duty.'
That's feasible, but from what read in the sidebar, it looks like Decipher wanted to intentionally put enlisted characters at a disadvantage (because unlike the US Navy, enlisted personnel are not the subject matter experts on a Starfleet vessel).
Otherwise, I think TPTB would have made an Enlisted Crewman profession.
Well, they list Chief O'Brien as a Starship Engineer in the PG; I'm not sure if they meant to imply that enlisted and officers are pretty much the same in Trek, or that O'Brien was a special case. In any event, O'Brien was clearly the subject-matter expert in his case.Quote:
Originally posted by Sea Tyger
That's feasible, but from what read in the sidebar, it looks like Decipher wanted to intentionally put enlisted characters at a disadvantage (because unlike the US Navy, enlisted personnel are not the subject matter experts on a Starfleet vessel).
Otherwise, I think TPTB would have made an Enlisted Crewman profession.
I think it was something of a bad idea not to address the subject of enlisted characters more closely.
The following information was forwarded to me from Ross when I was wondering the same thing myself a little while ago:
Enlisted personnel technically do not have a profession. They do not get professional abilities (except through Innovative).
If an Enlisted character meets the requirements for an elite profession, they may take it just as any other character can. That would explain O'Brien being a Starship Engineer.
Professional skills were not addressed. But, as a Narrator, I would give them the same Professional Skills as a Starship Officer plus those they chose for their assingment's five picks (as indicated in the sidebar on page 85 of the PG). But that's me... :)
I'm hoping somebody can help me out here. What exactly is the difference between a "normal" crewman and an "enlisted" crewman? I know that O'Brian was a "chief" but don't really understand what that means.Quote:
Originally posted by PGoodman13
I think it was something of a bad idea not to address the subject of enlisted characters more closely.
Most, if not all, of the characters I've seen in Trek bottom out at the ensign rank. It's my understanding that Starfleet Academy graduates are ensigns. But aren't these enlisted types ranked lower than ensigns? If so, how do they get on a starship to begin with? Is the Academy where one would go if they wanted to be on the Officer fast-track? Are there other Starfleet training facilities for those who don't make the officer cut?
Maybe it's just that I've never understood the rank structure of the current US Navy...
CorpBoy
Miles O'Brien is a Chief Petty Officer of some sort; I think he was identified in "Hippocratic Oath" as a Senior Chief, but it's been a long time.Quote:
Originally posted by CorpBoy
I'm hoping somebody can help me out here. What exactly is the difference between a "normal" crewman and an "enlisted" crewman? I know that O'Brian was a "chief" but don't really understand what that means.
That's correct. Ensign is the lowest commissioned officer rank. Most of the characters you've ever seen were commissioned officers. One does not need to be a commissioned officer to serve in either the real military or in Starfleet.Quote:
Most, if not all, of the characters I've seen in Trek bottom out at the ensign rank. It's my understanding that Starfleet Academy graduates are ensigns.
"Enlisted types" are, indeed, lower on the rank scale than even the newest ensign. Those 20+ year veterans have some personal problems calling kids "sir."Quote:
But aren't these enlisted types ranked lower than ensigns? If so, how do they get on a starship to begin with? Is the Academy where one would go if they wanted to be on the Officer fast-track? Are there other Starfleet training facilities for those who don't make the officer cut?
However, this does not mean that enlisted personnel are any less capable of serving on a starship than a commissioned officer. In many (even most) cases, they're going to have boatloads more experience than the newbie ensign/second lieutenant; most newly commissioned officers are advised to seek out the senior enlisted personnel and learn from them. Most of them disregard this advice, to their own cost, but some of them realize that rank does not equal experience.
I'm a USAF vet, and I was enlisted. I watched this in action all the time.
It's a piece of cake. You've got two basic tiers: officers and enlisted. In the real-world military, the enlisted do most of the work and the officers make most of the decisions and offer guidance and leadership to the enlisted personnel. I'll let Sea Tyger take over at this point, since I need to get ready for work....Quote:
Maybe it's just that I've never understood the rank structure of the current US Navy...
I guess that's my cue. I am a Navy veteran, so I suppose I'm qualified to teach this course... :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally posted by PGoodman13
It's a piece of cake. You've got two basic tiers: officers and enlisted. In the real-world military, the enlisted do most of the work and the officers make most of the decisions and offer guidance and leadership to the enlisted personnel. I'll let Sea Tyger take over at this point, since I need to get ready for work....
Anyway, the Navy has 9 enlisted ranks and 3 warrant officer ranks, and all of them are subordinate to the greenest engign.
We start out with the junior enlisted: seamen, firemen, airmen, hospital corpsmen, dentalmen and constructionmen. These are actual rank titles, although they are equivalent. Think of them as a crewman of one of the various Starfleet branches.
The lowest rank is seaman recruit (replace "seaman" to get the equivalent rank for the other branches). These guys are the 18-year olds who are either still in basic training or have just graduated. Unless you're a complete screw up, you will get advanced out of recruit within a year.
We next move to seaman apprentice and seaman, and these are still new (under 2 years of service in most cases), but they have more specialized knowledge in their rating (rating = job).
From seaman, you rise up into the Petty Officer ranks. Petty officers are non-commissioned officers; this means that they have authority over seamen. All petty officers are specialized in one rating, and most of their work is performed in this area.
I, personally, was an electrician for the first 6 years of my career, and I specialized in control circuits of shipboard elevators. My last three years were as a broadcaster and photojournalist (yes, we have those in the service :).
There are three distict levels of petty officers: 1st, 2nd and 3rd class (1st Class being the highest rank of the three). Petty Officers, 1st Class, are shop leaders, and sometimes (but not often), the highest ranking enlisted person in a division...meaning they advise the division officer on personnel and technical issues.
Above the petty officers are the Chief Petty Officers, the three ranks being Chief, Senior Chief, and Master Chief Petty Officer. These guys are the true gurus in their area of specialty. The youngest chiefs have been in the Navy for as little as 8 years (it is possible), but most chiefs have at least 10-12 years of experience. Senior chiefs and master chiefs routinely have 15+ years in the service.
Chiefs and above are often times division officers on smaller ships, and on the smallest ships they may actually be a department head. They are a special group, different from their peers in the Army, Marines and Air Force in that they are considered as the bridge between officer and enlisted...almost a separate tier in the ranking system.
Above chiefs are warrant officers. Unlike the Army and Air Force (who actually bring their helicopter pilots in at the warrant officer level), Navy warrant officers are chiefs, senior chiefs and master chiefs who have been given a special commission in their area of specialty. Yes, warrant officers are true commissioned officers, although ranked below ensign. They are almost always division officers or a special position (like the ship's boatswain, yes, we still have them), and often have 20+ years of experience.
Overall, enlisted personnel are the technical experts in the Navy. They are the ones who operate the radar and interpret signals, plot the ship's course, drive the ship, operate and maintain the engines, and fire the ship's weapons. The officers provide the tactical expertise, leadership and guidance. Go watch Hunt for Red October as a somewhat accurate example of the officer-enlisted relationship in the US Navy. I can't speak for the Soviet navy. ;)
In Star Trek, many of the enlisted technical expertise is given to the officers. Scotty is the guy going out and making repairs to vital components, and Sulu is piloting the Enterprise and firing her weapons (especially in the movie era). Enlisted personnel seem to be relegated to minor maintenance procedures, medical orderly work, or lab technician duties. Miles O'Brien is a unique example of enlisted expertise in the Star Trek universe...Enterprise seems to be the first of the four series to develop their enlisted crew as viable technically adept personnel (O'Brien notwithstanding).
I hope that helps.
I think I'm going to go a more restrictive route: enlisted crewmembers only receive Systems Operation and either Science or Engineering (not both) as their professional skills. Thanks for the help!Quote:
Originally posted by Doug Burke
Professional skills were not addressed. But, as a Narrator, I would give them the same Professional Skills as a Starship Officer plus those they chose for their assingment's five picks (as indicated in the sidebar on page 85 of the PG). But that's me... :)
On a side note, I've decided that I will allow enlisted personnel to choose their "prospective" elite profession for purposes of assigning their favored attributes and reaction.
A "chief" would be higher than a typical enlisted crewman (probably quite a lot higher), but still lower in rank than an Ensign.Quote:
I'm hoping somebody can help me out here. What exactly is the difference between a "normal" crewman and an "enlisted" crewman? I know that O'Brian was a "chief" but don't really understand what that means.
While there don't seem to be as many enlisted personnel in Starfleet as there are in the real world Navy, the ones that do exist must have some relevant skills for starship operations (basic maintenance, medical lab work, and so on).Quote:
Most, if not all, of the characters I've seen in Trek bottom out at the ensign rank. It's my understanding that Starfleet Academy graduates are ensigns. But aren't these enlisted types ranked lower than ensigns? If so, how do they get on a starship to begin with?
Yes, although its not so much a fast track as an alternative track - it doesn't appear to be common for an enlisted man to 'upgrade' to officer status in Starfleet (any more than it is in the real Navy), although such may be possible. One either starts out as an enlisted crewman and hope to make it to Chief, or as an Ensign and hope to make it to Admiral...Quote:
Is the Academy where one would go if they wanted to be on the Officer fast-track?
Presumably so, although they've never been mentioned explicitly.Quote:
Are there other Starfleet training facilities for those who don't make the officer cut?
Okay, here goes:
All of the rules from the sidebar on p. 85 apply.
"Enlisted Crewman" is a quasi-profession, and should be listed as such on the character's base profession and his professional development.
The only professional skills the enlisted character receives are System Ops and either Engineering or Science (not both).
The enlisted character is allowed to choose a "prospective" starship officer elite profession for the purposes of selecting her favored attributes and reaction. IOW, if the character is to be an engineering specialist, then she would select her favored stats as if she were a Starship Engineering Officer.
Enlisted characters are not allowed to take the Promotion edge until they have first taken the Commission edge (detailed below).
New Edges
Chief Petty Officer
This edge performs in every way like the Promotion edge, except that it applies only to enlisted personnel. Characters with this edge at level 1 or 2 are still considered subordinate to all officers in their organization.
Prerequisites: Characters with the Enlisted Crewman quasi-profession only. Must qualify for, but not necessarily have purchased, at least one Starship Officer elite profession.
Chief Petty Officer 1: The first time a character purchases this skill, she is promoted to the rank of Chief Petty Officer, Senior Chief Petty Officer or Master Chief Petty Officer, and is commonly referred to as "chief." Chiefs receive a +1 bonus to all social tests to all subordinate enlisted personnel in their organization.
Chief Petty Officer 2: The second purchase of the Chief Petty Officer edge confers the rank of Warrant Officer or Chief Warrant Officer on the character. An enlisted crewman is not able to be promoted beyond this level without first taking the Commission edge. Warrant Officers receive a +2 bonus to all social tests to all subordinate enlisted personnel in their organization, including Chief Petty Officers.
Commission
This edge promotes an enlisted crewman character to the rank of ensign. Further, the character receives all skills from the Starship Officer list as professional skills. The character will be able to purchase the Promotion edge normally (not normally available to enlisted crewman characters).
Prerequisite: Characters with the Enlisted Crewman quasi-profession only. Must have purchased at least one Starship Officer elite profession.
I like it! Seems reasonable, works well within the system. I won't be using it since all my players wanna be officers, but it'll sure be nice to know that I can find it somewhere if someone changes their mind.