Bajoran confession booths?

Okay, before I begin, I'm starting this thread only because I want to find out what the authors of the DecTrek rules have in mind for the Bajorans. This is not about bashing any real religions, okay? Let's play nice and keep it that way!

Now that that's out of the way ...

My local hobby store finally (!) got a copy of the new Player's Guide in, and I had all of about 15 minutes to browse through it yesterday before having to put it back on the shelf.

Being a Bajoran fan, I immediately turned to the appropriate pages in the character-creation section, and I started perusing the new long-promised rules about "pagh".

One thing struck me as really, well, weird, IMHO. The rules said that Bajoran players lose their pagh points if they do something that goes seriously against the Will of the Prophets (something like, say, joining a dark and bloody Pah-Wraith cult). Am I remembering things, or did the rules say that such players need to visit a Bajoran mystic and and confess their sins in order to get their pagh points back?

Confess their sins??? To another person???

What??????

The whole idea of confession to another person really strikes me as going against the feel of the Bajoran religion as presented in Deep Space Nine!

In real life, only one religion that I know of -- Roman Catholism -- stipulates that confession to another person is mandatory for divine forgiveness.

Protestant Christians don't confess to their pastors. Buddhists aren't required to make confessions. Muslims aren't required to make confessions. American Indians aren't required to make confessions. Hindus aren't required to make confessons. Wiccans aren't required to make confessions.

Almost all religions that I've ever encountered stress the importance of a person's direct connection to the divine, and seeking forgiveness is a very personal pursuit.

Although Kira and other spiritual Bajorans presented in Deep Space Nine often showed great respect or reverance for the wisdom of their religious leaders, never was there shown any indication that they felt that any religious leaders (except maybe for the Emissary) were actually more directly connected with the Prophets in any real way. And never was it even implied that any Bajoran that wanted to repair their relation with the Prophets ever had to "confess" their misdeeds to anybody.

I'm sorry, but this really bugs me. I've always really liked the Bajoran religion because of the way it encouraged its members to create their own connection with the deity. For the Player's Guide to say that the Bajoran religion requires people to go through intermediaries in order to spirtually connect with the Prophets seems, well, almost heretical!

Like I said, I'm not blasting any real-world religions. But I am wondering why the authors of the player's guide decided to install this type of constricting dogma on the beautiful simplicity of the established Bajoran spiritual belief system.

(Yeah, I know it's just a game, and I can change the rules however I like. But it still bugs me, okay?)

Well p.31 says:
"...they [courage points a.k.a. pagh] do not refresh until he brings himself into the good graces of the Prophets (typically, by confessing to a Bajoran mystic)."

Just so we all know what we're talking about. ;)

The way I see it - which obviously counts for nothing at all, but let's pretend ;) - it's simply one way (of many) of undoing / making up whatever bad deed it was, that ticked off the Prophets.

I'd say it was just a throw-away example with not that much thought going into it, except maybe "What would make for good roleplaying?".

Personally, I would have gone with "Interpretative Dancing to Express One's Feelings Towards The Prophets", but that's just my sense of humour. :D

Quote:

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Originally posted by Jabara Eris
In real life, only one religion that I know of -- Roman Catholism -- stipulates that confession to another person is mandatory for divine forgiveness.

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Not since Vatican II. :)

We Catholics now view confession as a nice thing to do (ie: talk to someone about it) but the bottom line is so long as you are genuinely contrite and do your damnest to avoid it again, you are forgiven. They still want you to confess (and on a personal note I feel better when I do something crumby to share it with someone) but the bottom line is its between you and God.

I will grant you that there is still an old guard that maintain that Confession is required but the bottom line remains the same [Trivia: The Vatican hates to admit it but all but two of Luther's reforms are now canon].

Sorry about the tangent. We now return you to Bajor.

Seems simple enough to me. And not against canon.

Sure, your spot on that Bajorans do not verbally confess their sins. In fact once a year there is a cleansing ceremony that absolves all transgressions that are penned on scrolls and thrown in the fire.

Once a year is more absolution than some Catholic treinds of mine. ;)

However, also seen on screen, is that should a Bajoran become troubled they can see a vedek and get the ear pinched and Pagh restored. All of which was seen on screen. And in both cases forgiveness and absolution came from within, as the sins and confessions remained very personal. It was simply facilitated by an act of religious contrition, either penning the sin on the scroll, or making the pilgrimage to visit the Vedek.

Thus either allowing the sin to be re-lived and hopfully the mistakes spotted, understood and learned from, or at least offering the pemitant time to reflect on what has happened.

So its not too far fetched, as long as you dont read the 'confess their sins' part quite so literally. Besides, if it was easy to regain those extra points, it would be a little unbalanced. How does my canon explanation sound in matching the two together?

The way I see it, the "typically, by confessing to a Bajoran mystic" was to be understood as a "for instance, by confessing to a Bajoran mystic". I mean, I may be mistaken, but I seem to remember Kira going (more than once, at that) and having quite an in-depth discussion with her Vedek (or some Vedek she happens to know and respect/like). Sometimes, she just speaks about her feelings, her thoughts, sometimes she also describes what she did and thinks was wrong. While this may not technically be a confession, this sure as hell could qualify for one: discuss with someone who has a full religious training about what's bugging you, try to discern the Prophets' Will (that's where a Vedek/Priest/Monk/... helps, and if you don't tell what's bugging you, it sure makes it harder for him or her to guide you), and meditate or pray. Some religions put the emphasis on the telling of the "sins", some on the search of god's will, and some on the meditation that ensues. I guess it's your call to decide how the Bajoran religion works ... I'd say a bit of all three, but that's just me. The point is, it should not be too easy for the player to get his CPs back. So make that a lot of all three ;)

Oh, by the way, the Bajoran template being a bit low in points compared to other racial templates, in my games Pagh gives you 2 CPs rather than just one. If you use the additional CP value given in the NG, it seems a lot fairer that way (especially since the CP is "conditional" (compared to other races)).

Took me a few days to get a chance to respond to everybody, but here goes …

Joe Dizzy said: “The way I see it - which obviously counts for nothing at all, but let's pretend - it's simply one way (of many) of undoing / making up whatever bad deed it was, that ticked off the Prophets. I'd say it was just a throw-away example with not that much thought going into it, except maybe "What would make for good roleplaying? Personally, I would have gone with "Interpretative Dancing to Express One's Feelings Towards The Prophets", but that's just my sense of humour.”

I like the way you think, Joe! ;-) After contemplating what I wrote, I got to thinking that Bajor is a big planet with a lot of Vedeks. Several times throughout Deep Space Nine it was noted that some Vedeks have decisively different interpretations of the Holy Scripts (and prophesies, etc.). Even Vedek Bariel said he wanted to do away entirely with the practice of clerics routinely (and often painfully!) pinching the ears of the faithful to gauge their pagh. Different Vedeks were noted as having their own “followers”, making their spiritual and philosophical differences in opinion akin to the differences seen by various religious denominations in real life. With that in mind, I could definitely see a cleric (or maybe numerous Vedeks and Prylars) taking the view that confession to another person is good for the soul, and some might even feel so strongly about it that such practices are virtually required among their flock. I think my problem really came from the rule book saying such practices are the “traditional” way to get one’s spirit back in line with the Will of the Prophets (and, in game terms, regaining pagh points in the process).

I would like to think that the whole “confession” idea is indeed a throw-away line. My concern is not so much with that single statement, but the potential implication that eventually (when an aliens supplement comes out) the new rules may attempt to present the Bajoran religion as a mirror of the Roman Catholic church. Yeah, that may seem a bit far fetched, but I wanted to present my opposition to such an idea just in case. Just to make my views clear, I also don’t want the Bajoran religion to be a mirror of the Southern Baptist faith, or the Hindu faith, or the Muslim faith, or the Buddhist faith, or the Wiccan faith, or of any established faith on Terra. Maybe individual Vedeks might have teachings with aspects similar to each of those belief systems, but I don’t like the idea of the Bajoran religion as a whole being simply an extension of something that exists in real life. Does that make sense?

Dave Biggins said: “We Catholics now view confession as a nice thing to do (ie: talk to someone about it) but the bottom line is so long as you are genuinely contrite and do your damnest to avoid it again, you are forgiven.”

Thanks for correcting me on that point, Dave! Although I try to be a bit well-versed in the teachings of as many religions as possible, I admit that I am not Roman Catholic, and it seems that some of my facts are a bit out of date on that belief system! The idea of confession being a good psychological release as well as a way for a person to bring troublesome ideas or hidden thoughts to the conscious mind is well documented, not just by modern psychologists, but also by clerics of real-world religions for thousands of years. Even though Protestant Christian belief systems do not require a believer to confess their “sins” to their local pastor, any preacher will tell you that comforting and counseling (and even hearing the confessions of ) the members of their congregation is a major part of their job.

Calcoran said: “I seem to remember Kira going (more than once, at that) and having quite an in-depth discussion with her Vedek (or some Vedek she happens to know and respect/like). Sometimes, she just speaks about her feelings, her thoughts, sometimes she also describes what she did and thinks was wrong. While this may not technically be a confession, this sure as hell could qualify for one: discuss with someone who has a full religious training about what's bugging you, try to discern the Prophets' Will (that's where a Vedek/Priest/Monk/... helps, and if you don't tell what's bugging you, it sure makes it harder for him or her to guide you), and meditate or pray.”

Dan Gurden said: “In fact once a year there is a cleansing ceremony that absolves all transgressions that are penned on scrolls and thrown in the fire. However, also seen on screen, is that should a Bajoran become troubled they can see a vedek and get the ear pinched and Pagh restored. All of which was seen on screen. And in both cases forgiveness and absolution came from within, as the sins and confessions remained very personal. It was simply facilitated by an act of religious contrition, either penning the sin on the scroll, or making the pilgrimage to visit the Vedek. Thus either allowing the sin to be re-lived and hopefully the mistakes spotted, understood and learned from, or at least offering the penitent time to reflect on what has happened.”

You both make very good points! I agree with the idea of reflection being central in the idea of a believer’s ability to return to the Path of the Prophets, but I also see the actual manifestation of that reflection being a personal choice of the penitent. While some Bajorans may find solace in the act of verbally confessing their wrongs to a cleric they respect, other Bajorans may be uncomfortable with such practices and instead may find much greater peace in privately coming to terms with their acts and in secretly writing and burning a scroll containing the things they wish removed from their lives. The local Star Trek fan club I favor has for years had their own annual Gratitude festival, and many people (of numerous belief systems) who attend have said they look forward every year to the ritualistic burning of the scrolls because of the emotional comfort it brings to them.

Dan said: “So its not too far fetched, as long as you don’t read the 'confess their sins' part quite so literally. Besides, if it was easy to regain those extra points, it would be a little unbalanced.”

I agree that it shouldn’t be too easy for a character to regain their pagh points. IMHO, I think that a person who plans to play a Bajoran needs to really get a good idea as to how “faithful” their character will be, and how their character interprets the various teachings in regards to the Prophets. The player should definitely discuss this with the gamemaster, with the two of them deciding how the player might handle a loss of pagh points, and what steps the character would take (A vision quest? A pilgrimage to one of the Orbs? A period of fasting, meditation and studying the scriptures at a monastery?) to regain such points if and when necessary. What if the character isn’t faithful at all (as in Ro Laren)? Then the player and gamemaster need to decide how to handle pagh (possibly as just treating it like standard courage points).

Maybe I was reading the “confession” part too literally. I hope so, because I think that any specific matters of religion in any game system, particularly the concept of restoring a character’s relationship with their deity, should be something decided for each character on a case-by-case basis. But then again, I’ve always been fascinated by the whole idea of roleplaying religion, so maybe I’m a bit more fanatical about the concept than most other people! ;)

To everyone – thanks for such thoughtful answers to my original posting! You’ve given me some great things to ponder in the days until I finally get around to buying the new system!

Quote:

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Originally posted by Jabara Eris
Maybe I was reading the “confession” part too literally. I hope so, because I think that any specific matters of religion in any game system, particularly the concept of restoring a character’s relationship with their deity, should be something decided for each character on a case-by-case basis. But then again, I’ve always been fascinated by the whole idea of roleplaying religion, so maybe I’m a bit more fanatical about the concept than most other people! ;)

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I think your problem was that you saw the word "confession" and automatically associated it with a practice attached to a human religion. Which is a rather speciesist thing to do! ;)

Honestly, in stead of assuming that Bajoran confession was exactly like Catholic confession and worrying that this makes both religions the same in their entirety (please note I am using hyperbole for humor here, not as an attack), you should have started thinking, "How would a Bajoran confess?" Does it have to be a formal ritual, or is it more of a counseling session? Does it require a confession of specific wrongdoings, or merely a general acknowledgement of trespass, with the Vedic's ability to read the pagh making up for lack of specificity? Are specific acts of pennance required, or does the Vedic merely point out a section of the Words of the Prophets which speaks to the problem and leave the action up to the individual penetant? There is actually quite a large range of options available within the word "confession". Put them together one way, and you get the Catholic version.

Plus, with the wide variety of Vedics and their interpretations, it probably varies from sect to sect. I'm personally wondering if there is an itinnerant Vedic out there with a miniature Bajoran shrine that he places over the pennitant's head before hearing confession (a la Wolfwood from Trigun)...

It has honestly been my opinion that religion has gotten short shrift in Star Trek. We've only seen the Bajoran religion of the Prophets and the quasi-religious devotion of Vulcans to Logic as major religions, with a few Klingon monks devoted to Khaless and Chakotay's animism thrown in for variety. No Catholics, Mulsims, Taoists, Hindus, and so forth are even hinted at. I find it hard to believe that there aren't hundreds of religions floating around out there to go with the hundreds of species. Not that I'm saying they should be broadcasting hour-long religious services on spaceships, just that the spiritual dimension of Star Trek is conspicuously absent, and many chances for drama and strong areas of character development are being missed.

-Chris Landmark
(who occasionally likes to play devout individuals in RPGs)