Printable View
Okay now I am talking the far east here.
ICE/MERP didn't do anything on them, but I am to assume they are like the more Asiatic people of our own world.
So what would they be like? One major Japanese or Chinese like culture? Or a few that embody aspects of China and the remainder of South East Asia?
Ideas? Thoughts?
Going by what I can remember from the books, and using what I saw in TTT I would venture that they would be more along the Mongols, or some other type of steppe nomads, Scythians perhaps.
Chello!
Well, Aslan, there are lots of Easterlings. Anything East of Mordor in fact.
"...the 'Easterlings' were mostly Men of cruel and evil kind, descendents of those who had served and worshipped Sauron before his overthrow at the end of the Second Age."
The History of Middle Earth Vol. 12: The Peoples of Middle Earth, Christopher Tolkien (ed.).
I remember that in our old MERP/RM games, we had areas that were Middle Eastern, Tibetan, and SE Asian in charcter. none that were Japanses or Chinese really though. although one PC was Ben-ji the Monk. ;)
Tony
I would join the Mongol side. It seems at least that they are war-like and at least at the beginning joined Sauron voluntarily. Yet they are good horse man, like the Mongols were.
BTW where have we seen them in TTT?
I think Lord Kjeran has it right, there are lots of Easterlings.
I think there are Monguls/Amerinds just past Mordor, on the far side of Rhun.
Beyond that you get out of the steppes and into mountains, forests, etc...
So perhaps there is room for different types as well, and considering that the good Prof used our earth as the guideline there would be room for a sort of Chinese/Japanese society.
Also possibly an East Indian style society just to the south and east of Mordor.
Much like the Western races and societies though I don't see them as direct copies but subtle amalgamations.
As for where we saw Easterlings in TTT. When Sam and Frodo are right at the Gates of Mordor, we see an army march up. They hide under the Elven cloaks as two break off to investigate, these are Easterlings. Looking at their eyes the looked sort of Asiatic and maybe even a bit east Indian.
To be honest I am sure one of them was a woman. Probably used so they could get the exotic look to the eyes.
About the TTT and the army at the gates of Mordor, I'd swear they were southerons ... southerners ... southsomethingwhateverTolkiencalledhtem. After all, it seems to me they were of the same type as those who had a Mumakil/Oliphant with them, and those were definitely from the south.
As to there being a Japanese/Chinese-like culture on Middle-Earth, wasn't there something like that on ICE's map of Middle-Earth? Some place called Cathay or somesuch? It may not be canon, but it'd be close enough, wouldn't it?
That were no Easterlings ( hey the came from Southwest ) but it were Haradrim, or Southrons ( which is the Westron translation ) according to the books - and I assume it was held that way in script as well. I actually think I can remember an interview with jackson where he referred to them has Southern people.
It has to be Southrons, because Easterlings would have come from the other direction.
Not to add to the debate, but I think the armies approaching the Black Gate in TTT (the movie) are Easterlings. I offer this as possible proof.
The army that Faramir's rangers ambushed, the ones with the Mumakil, those were Southrons, aka Haradrim.
IMO and IMC, of course. :)
Hmmm ... they still looked more like North-africans to me than Asians ... but ICBW ... anyone knows Peter Jackson here? Maybe he could give him a call and ask him? ;)
And when is the DVD coming out so that we can check!
Last rumor I heard had the theatrical edition coming out in Julyish.Quote:
Originally posted by Calcoran
And when is the DVD coming out so that we can check!
Quote:
Originally posted by AslanC
Okay now I am talking the far east here.
ICE/MERP didn't do anything on them, but I am to assume they are like the more Asiatic people of our own world.
So what would they be like? One major Japanese or Chinese like culture? Or a few that embody aspects of China and the remainder of South East Asia?
Ideas? Thoughts?
Why didn't you ask this last week when I was reading articles on line analyzing the Tolkien races. Then I could have given you sites to look at. :(
From what I remember, the last book of theHistory of Middle-Earth dealt with this suggesting Tolkien didn't have any nations representing China, India or Japan. It wasn't necessary for his internal history or mythology.
That in mind, it is going to be your story. Use it if you want. I'm working on a way of bringing the Rûmhoth, of the city Rûm to the south, into my back history. It was mentioned in one of the History of Middle-Earth books and why not use it. :D
Maybe the movie shows Easterlings. In the books its definitely Haradrim. Even in the movie they come from South - why should the Easterlings wander all around Mordor?
But maybe NLC decided differently, yet their appearance looks stille like depicted in the book.
Sorry Evan but the Southrons were shown later in the film with the Oliphant and they looked remarkably different than what were identified as the easterlings.
Also they marched around perhaps to show respect and enter Mordor through the black gate instead of just walking in the back door.
Would you want to risk pissing off Sauron?
Be careful about assigning specific ethnic identities to the various races in Middle Earth. You might stir up the old "Tolkien was a Racist" argument again, and we don't want that. Even assigning a correlation between Rohirrim and Anglo-Saxons (which I myself am guilty of) can be dangerous, for while Tolkien used Old English to represent their language, the Rohirrim share many characteristics with Norse and Germanic cultures of the Dark Ages. What you should be looking at is "how did other cultures develop in similar circumstances." You can then borrow some elements from those cultures but be sure to alter them, because the Easterlings aren't Asiatic peoples. They're Easterlings.:D
What do we know of the various Easterlings? First of all that there were a number of different groups/tribes/nations with different cultures. The first invasions (c. 490-541 of the Third Age) we know little about, other than the effects of their invasion.
We know that later (in 1248 TA) Minalcar (later Romendacil II) took a great force into the lands of Rhovanion and destroyed all the camps and settlements of the Easterlings which lay on the near side of the inland sea of Rhûn. This implies that they were a semi-nomadic people, which may have held some resemblance to some of the peoples which invaded Europe from the East, like the Mongols or the Huns (my personal preference). Still, the destruction which Romendacil II wrought most likely broke this first group of Easterlings as a major power.
The next invasion we have from the east is the Wainriders, which were "a people, or confederacy of many peoples," and sapped Gondor's strength in was which lasted a century (beginningin 1851). They traveled in great wagons, their chieftans fought from chariots, and they were much stronger and better armed than the previous wave of Easterlings. They thus seem to be of a different culture than the previous group, but I can't think of any historical group to equate them with other than Vikings (substituting huge wagons for longboats).
The next invasion of Easterlings we have are the Balchoth (in 2510), who moved into the area east of Mirkwood and south of the River Running (and were doubtless plenty of trouble for the people of Dale). We know of them (mostly from stuff in the Unfinished Tales) that they were somehow akin to the Wainriders in culture at least. They had few horses and used them mostly for draught, and traveled in wagons. However, we know also that they were poorly equipped, and their main advantage over Gondor this time was in numbers. They were defeated by the timely arrival of Eorl the Young.
Of course, there were Easterlings present durring the War of the Ring. One group attacked Dale and Erebor. Another group, different from previously encountered Easterlings in that they were bearded and wielded axes, took Cairn Andos and also make an appearance at the Siege of Minas Tirith (there is a mention of "Easterlings with axes"). There were tons of unspecified Easterlings in the battle before the Morannon, and they doubtless represented all of Sauron's followers from east of Mordor.
What we are left with is a general impression of "hordes of unwashed barbarians" friom the north-east of Middle Earth, all of which hate the West, under the sway of Sauron, who repeatedly invade. So the key elements of their culture would be a veneration of Sauron and the Dark Powers, warlike nature, and a lack of the superior culture and craft of the West. So I'd look to such raiding and invading cultures as Vikings, Huns, and Mongols (without the cavalry culture, of course) for inspiration. Can anyone come up with other sources of inspiration?
-Chris Landmark
You know Chris between you and Tony we are gonna have an encyclopedia on line here ;)
That doesn't help us much but gets the ball rolling eh?Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Landmark What do we know of the various Easterlings? First of all that there were a number of different groups/tribes/nations with different cultures. The first invasions (c. 490-541 of the Third Age) we know little about, other than the effects of their invasion.
I think they would work as a mix of the two. Mongols & Huns. If the Rohirrim can be seen as Saxon/Germanic/Norse, certainly we can see the nomadic easterlings being like that as well. Have to do some research on both those cultures more.Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Landmark We know that later (in 1248 TA) Minalcar (later Romendacil II) took a great force into the lands of Rhovanion and destroyed all the camps and settlements of the Easterlings which lay on the near side of the inland sea of Rhûn. This implies that they were a semi-nomadic people, which may have held some resemblance to some of the peoples which invaded Europe from the East, like the Mongols or the Huns (my personal preference). Still, the destruction which Romendacil II wrought most likely broke this first group of Easterlings as a major power.
You know what is weird, I saw an East Indian mythic adventure film (yes there was singing) but the armies in the movie sound just like the ones you are describing here, except for the wagons. But that is forgivable to be sure.Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Landmark The next invasion we have from the east is the Wainriders, which were "a people, or confederacy of many peoples," and sapped Gondor's strength in was which lasted a century (beginningin 1851). They traveled in great wagons, their chieftans fought from chariots, and they were much stronger and better armed than the previous wave of Easterlings. They thus seem to be of a different culture than the previous group, but I can't think of any historical group to equate them with other than Vikings (substituting huge wagons for longboats).
Hmmmmm... I am lost for a real world comparison. Anyone got any ideas for this?Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Landmark The next invasion of Easterlings we have are the Balchoth (in 2510), who moved into the area east of Mirkwood and south of the River Running (and were doubtless plenty of trouble for the people of Dale). We know of them (mostly from stuff in the Unfinished Tales) that they were somehow akin to the Wainriders in culture at least. They had few horses and used them mostly for draught, and traveled in wagons. However, we know also that they were poorly equipped, and their main advantage over Gondor this time was in numbers. They were defeated by the timely arrival of Eorl the Young.
Easterlings with Axes eh? Could be those Hun/Mongols again. Especially with those beards, kind of like Russian Steppes folk. Kurgen ;)Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Landmark Of course, there were Easterlings present durring the War of the Ring. One group attacked Dale and Erebor. Another group, different from previously encountered Easterlings in that they were bearded and wielded axes, took Cairn Andos and also make an appearance at the Siege of Minas Tirith (there is a mention of "Easterlings with axes"). There were tons of unspecified Easterlings in the battle before the Morannon, and they doubtless represented all of Sauron's followers from east of Mordor.
Right and if we keep going west we eventually get to the far eastern coast where I see the more civilized Cathay type of place (as someone mentioned).Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Landmark What we are left with is a general impression of "hordes of unwashed barbarians" friom the north-east of Middle Earth, all of which hate the West, under the sway of Sauron, who repeatedly invade. So the key elements of their culture would be a veneration of Sauron and the Dark Powers, warlike nature, and a lack of the superior culture and craft of the West. So I'd look to such raiding and invading cultures as Vikings, Huns, and Mongols (without the cavalry culture, of course) for inspiration. Can anyone come up with other sources of inspiration?
Thanks guys. this has all been a big help thus far.
I have really figured some stuff out and more confused other parts ;) In the end though it should all work out :)