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What do all those orcs living underneath the Misty Mountains in Moria or the GoblinTown from "The Hobbit" eat? It just seems unlikely that forrays into the surrounding forests and villages could support that many large creatures.
Do they eat each other?
One another ?
:D
Isn't it said somewhere in the hobbit that they keep fungi farms or somesuch? They could also raise rats or other cave dwelling creature ... that they'd feed with fungi of course ;) ...
That's what would seem logical I'd say, after all, Orcs are not Trolls, they do not eat stone (oh wait, those are Discworld's Trolls).
Oh, and the occasional traveller, of course :D .
I was wondering the same sort of thing - ecology and economics we're JRR's strong suit I'm thinking, or at least not in these books...
Mordor's food problem would also be an issue despite references to "fields supporting his armies" elsewhere. Transporting food long distances utilizing pre-industrial means would TAKE an army.
My guess is .... yes!:DQuote:
Originally posted by nocac
Do they eat each other?
Survival of the fittest..
What the orcs ate in Moria?
Could it be whatever the Dwarves ate?
Ah,
But the dwarves (in ancient times at least) had a thriving trade with those outside, or so we're lead to believe.
But, they could not survive on just that. They must have had some type of food production located in Moria as well.Quote:
Originally posted by toadkiller
Ah,
But the dwarves (in ancient times at least) had a thriving trade with those outside, or so we're lead to believe.
Ah, the reason I have such trouble comfortably gaming in Middle-Earth. These sorts of issues didn't seem to bother Professor Tolkien, but they certainly bother me.
Let me ask you this: What does everybody do at Minas Tirith? What are the jobs of people there? Did Orthanc have a support staff before the War of the Ring? The folks who live in Bree ... what do they do for a living? What about those folks at Edoras?
Frankly, I think the fact that so many folks in Lord of the Rings are defined more by their blood and their location is meant to reinforce the idyllic, simple lifestyle that Tolkien is so enthusiastic about in the books. It works, but it does still raise some problems. Middle-Earth appears to have no infrastructure to speak of. This isn't a big deal, really, though it does keep me on the outside of the setting a bit.
I prefer smaller adventures on the scale of "The Hobbit," but so much of Middle-Earth has been spun just for the sake of the Lord of the Rings that it's difficult to tell little stories, sometimes, because the epic backstory looms everywhere like ancient boulders on the landscape.
Or so methinks.
Word,
Will
I may be burned in effigy by the Tolkien purists out there, but I just assume ME is akin to medieval times in most cases and wing it from there. Tolkien didn't bother mentioning this stuff because it wasn't important to the story he was telling. Who gives a crap about the economy of the Shire when the Nazgul are sweeping the lands in search of the One Ring? Who cares about the food distribution system of Gondor when the armies of the East are sweeping across the land? :)Quote:
Originally posted by Lt. Dade
Ah, the reason I have such trouble comfortably gaming in Middle-Earth. These sorts of issues didn't seem to bother Professor Tolkien, but they certainly bother me.
Let's see...some possible jobs for people of this time and age:Quote:
Let me ask you this: What does everybody do at Minas Tirith? What are the jobs of people there? Did Orthanc have a support staff before the War of the Ring? The folks who live in Bree ... what do they do for a living? What about those folks at Edoras?
Blacksmith
Miller
Farmer
Farrier
Haberdasher
Cobbler
Baker
Armourer
Hunter/skinner
Local militia
Fletcher
Bowyer
Weaver
Painter/other artist
etc etc etc.
I do.Quote:
I may be burned in effigy by the Tolkien purists out there, but I just assume ME is akin to medieval times in most cases and wing it from there. Tolkien didn't bother mentioning this stuff because it wasn't important to the story he was telling. Who gives a crap about the economy of the Shire when the Nazgul are sweeping the lands in search of the One Ring? Who cares about the food distribution system of Gondor when the armies of the East are sweeping across the land?
Also, for the record, Middle-Earth's cultural and technological foundations are only very loosely medieval. So much of the world's influences seem to come from an even earlier age, an age more influenced by the Anglo-Saxons than the Normans.
Certainly I know that Bree must have its cobblers and chandlers and such, but Minas Tirith (for example) appears to be comprised wholly of stone. So how do people get homes? Are they bestowed, claimed, inherited? These questions are by no means unanswerable, but in LotR the RPG I am in constant fear of having to battle my players over the simplest assertions because I am not a Tolkien scholar.
There are implied lifestyles for places like Bree and the Shire, which get more attention than some other spots in the land, but not a great deal of information on the average bloke. And, frankly, I don't think there's a lot of wiggle room, certainly not within heavily populated lands. As evidence, I direct you to the Decipher discussion boards (I know you're a frequent contributor over there, Ineti) where folks seem more interested in swatting away all possibilities of RPG wizardry in ME than in accepting magical, new stories.
Some wiggle room can be found in the wilderness, which befits the travelogue style of LotR, but the fact is that I do enjoy some ground-level details. The films give the appearance of such details, which I love, and is sometimes enough. That's nice.
Suffice to say, certain information is outside the scale of Tolkien's big trilogy, which is fine. Information like what the orcs in Moria spend most of their time doing. This wouldn't be a problem, except that a great many Tolkien fans do not accept deviation from the books ... and the books don't give us a lot to work with in this department.
You, Ineti, seem very comfortable refining Middle-Earth for your own purposes. That's terrific. I wish my average experience with LotR fans was as easy-going.
word,
Will
Sorry to hear it. I guess I'm fortunate in that I could only call one of my players a Tolkien scholar (and I'm definitely not one). They've all read LOTR and The Hobbit, but none of them (nor I) have an encyclopedic knowledge of Tolkien, and I suspect none of us are really interested in making Tolkien lore a life-long pursuit. We love the setting, we love the game, we play LOTR. :) Our version may not be as pure Tolkien as other games, but it's fun and internally consistent. I can't ask for much more.
I mean, really, would your players have the same issues with a Star Wars game? Are you hesitant to run Star Wars since we have no idea what the average Mos Eisley inhabitant does for a living? Is Star Wars intimidating because we don't know the function of every deck on a Star Destroyer?
Same thing with Trek. Questions have been posed on these boards frequently, like what does the average Federation citizen do for a living? How does he or she get a place to live? Do they go on vacations? If so, what do they use for transport? Does the lack of a canonical answer to those questions hamstring your ability to run a kick-ass Trek game?
As Narrator, GM, DM, whatever, it should be assumed that you're creating your version of whatever world you're setting your game in. If the players can't accept that and have to nitpick every single detail, and can't just let go of canon and have fun with the game, then...
...Hell, I don't care. Get over your mental block, make up what isn't expressly mentioned, and play the damn game. :) Tolkien will forgive you.
(steps off soapbox)
The difference in Star Wars and Star Trek is that those are both larger and shared universes. More than a single designer has had his or her voice heard during creation and there is just generally more wiggle room overall. And, besides, these sorts of problems do come up in Star Wars games too, sometimes.
For that matter, I do have a pretty good idea what the average fella in Mos Eisley does. That's a starport, with pilots, mechanics, smugglers, bounty hunters, scum and maybe moisture farmers coming to trade. That sort of thing.
It's also, by virtue of the scifi environment, much easier to travel to a distant corner of the galaxy and back again in those universes. That's by design, as both universes are intended for ongoing, expansive stories. Middle-Earth seems basically set up for one massive and fantastic story, which has been told. To be fair, I know Dragonlance fans who behave the same way as these ME fans, so it's not some singular phenomena.
Here's the other thing: I think the films, which are the first large-scale interpretation of the books that has been widely received (Bakshi take note) as an acceptable view, do give me some wiggle room. I predicted that die-hard Tolkien fans wouldn't accept the new films as being a suitable interpretation, and I'm happily wrong about that. So, Middle-Earth is opening up as a result of the films.
I can't be the only person who feels this way, or has encountered this sort of thing.
Oh, and for the record: I like the idea that the orcs of Moria would supplement their diet of rats with the occasional feast on other orcs ... or perhaps whatever young the Watcher might have.
word,
Will
Ehh, okay. I'll agree to disagree and leave it at that. :) Peace.