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So, who is he/she/it? I have heard this name mentioned in several of the Decipher LotR rpg supplements, but I am unfamiliar with it. From what I gather, he is the main bad guy (even greater that Sauron). Could anyone tell me more about him? What is his history/background? How can I use him in one of my chronicles?
Thanks for the help.
To put it simply: Morgoth is almost exactly the same as Sauron, but even more powerful.
Morgoth is one of the Ainur (basically angels?), as is Sauron. Morgoth is a Vala, Sauron is a Maia (Valar are the more powerful of the Ainur; the Maiar are consequently the weaker).
Originally named Melkor, Morgoth Bauglir was the great enemy of the Free Peoples in the entire First Age and before, and ravaged the world until the other Valar finally stepped in and dethroned him; exiling him into the great void.
Sauron took his place as Dark Lord and ruled the Forces of Evil in the Second and Third Ages. Morgoth can most easily be imagined as Sauron, multiplied ten-fold.
He shouldn't play a part in any Third Age chronicles, except perhaps in legends and where his works or spawn (such as the Balrog of Morgoth, Durin's Bane) are concerned.
For more information, read the Silmarillion (which reads rather like Genesis at some points; yikes!), or visit the Morgoth entry in the Encyclopedia of Arda.
Hope this helps!
Thanks for the help, ben hur.
So, unless the heros of my chronicles are nothing short of gods, they should never directly fight him in physical combat? Ah that is too bad, I kind of hoped for an encounter similar to that of the encounter with Sauron portrayed in the prologue of the "Fellowship of the Ring" movie. That would be most unlikely if Morgoth has ten-fold the power of Sauron. Sauron was nearly unbeatable . . . nearly.
We all know that Sauron has his followers (orcs and the dark men to name a few). Does Morgoth also have active followers or is it simply implied that if you serve Sauron you also serve Sauron's master/equal: Morgoth?
That brings me to a related question: does Sauron (or Morgoth in the First Age) ever take physical form again? I am kind of looking for some sort of physical battle between the heros of my chronicle and a bad guy of epic stature. It seems that Sauron and Morgoth are of such power that they eclipse the physical realm of the heros and only belong in the spiritual/divine realm. Any suggestions.
I am using a Morgothian Cult in my 4th Age game. They endeavour through sorcery and other fell practices to try and release him from his prison in the Abyss.
That said it could lead to Herumour (the new Dark Lord - Lieutenant of Morgoth) becoming powerful enough to face an army. But again like Sauron he woudl need something powerful as well. A ring perhaps... or something else.
Also Morgoth was served by Ungoliant who was the progenator of the Shelob line.
Shelob or Ungoliant make mighty fine, if not creepy as hell enemies.
Thanks, Aslan. I was just starting to read your thread on you chronicle, actually. I am anchsious to hear how it turns out, though, it may take several years.
Thanks for mentioning Ungoliant. That adds another layer of detail that is so great about LotR. I liked your idea of Morlob, by the way. Even though it is very similar to Shelob, it has seemed to stick in my mind as a great name for a foe.
Could you tell me more about the Morgothian cult you created or is it detailed in your chronicle's thread? I am toying with the idea of creating an "Order of Morgoth," a group of human knights (and a vast army of highly disciplined, super soldiers) devoted to the greater (evil) cause of Morgoth. Your cult may come in very handy.
So, assuming the forces of shadow do bring back Morgoth, then what? It seems such a force on Middle-Earth would be much too much to handle. How could any group, of even the most epic levels, ever hope to stand a chance against such a foe without divine intervention?
No problem. :)Quote:
Originally posted by E W Dawson
Thanks for the help, ben hur.
Yep, I would definitely suggest that you have no direct combat with Morgoth. But perhaps a different baddie would do... I imagine that the Mouth of Sauron (see The Black Gate Opens in the Return of the King) would provide a similiar scene if you are playing in the Fourth Age and working under the assumption that he survived the fall of Sauron.Quote:
Originally posted by E W Dawson
So, unless the heros of my chronicles are nothing short of gods, they should never directly fight him in physical combat? Ah that is too bad, I kind of hoped for an encounter similar to that of the encounter with Sauron portrayed in the prologue of the "Fellowship of the Ring" movie. That would be most unlikely if Morgoth has ten-fold the power of Sauron. Sauron was nearly unbeatable . . . nearly.
Yes, Morgoth certainly had his followers; the Forces of Sauron are but a token of the full power of Angband in all it's glory (Angband was Morgoth's fortress, rather as the Barad-dur is Sauron's). Sauron himself was a follower of Morgoth, in addition to many Balrogs, dragons, Orcs, wargs, spiders, and things fouler still. Nearly all the remnants of Morgoth's forces were gathered together under the leadership of Sauron after Morgoth's fall.Quote:
Originally posted by E W Dawson
We all know that Sauron has his followers (orcs and the dark men to name a few). Does Morgoth also have active followers or is it simply implied that if you serve Sauron you also serve Sauron's master/equal: Morgoth?
Sauron never takes physical form again after the Second Age (in the Third Age he is but a Great Eye, and at the end of the Third Age he is gone; period :)). I don't know whether Morgoth was ever bodily destroyed or not... he was at least cast into the void, whether that meant spirit or body. I imagine he's powerful enough to rebuild a body if he was ever returned (as AslanC's excellent chronicle may deal with).Quote:
Originally posted by E W Dawson
That brings me to a related question: does Sauron (or Morgoth in the First Age) ever take physical form again? I am kind of looking for some sort of physical battle between the heros of my chronicle and a bad guy of epic stature. It seems that Sauron and Morgoth are of such power that they eclipse the physical realm of the heros and only belong in the spiritual/divine realm. Any suggestions.
Indeed man... It is daunting when I think of all the adventures ahead that will be required to do this subtle thing. I hope both mine and my players interest holds :)Quote:
Originally posted by E W Dawson
Thanks, Aslan. I was just starting to read your thread on you chronicle, actually. I am anchsious to hear how it turns out, though, it may take several years.
Morlob in my game is Shelob, just given human form by sorcery and acting as an envoy of the cult.Quote:
Thanks for mentioning Ungoliant. That adds another layer of detail that is so great about LotR. I liked your idea of Morlob, by the way. Even though it is very similar to Shelob, it has seemed to stick in my mind as a great name for a foe.
Well I am treating the Morgothian cult like a mix of the Sith and Cuthulu worshipers. The idea is for them not to be blatant until they strike. By meddling in the affairs of the other lands, they hope to keep them busy while they work behind the scenes unaccosted. We'll see if that works out for them, you know how players can be. ;) Do you have specific questions? I always find I answer those better :)Quote:
Could you tell me more about the Morgothian cult you created or is it detailed in your chronicle's thread? I am toying with the idea of creating an "Order of Morgoth," a group of human knights (and a vast army of highly disciplined, super soldiers) devoted to the greater (evil) cause of Morgoth. Your cult may come in very handy.
If Morgoth were to actually return in fullpower I think the world would end there and then. I can't allow him to succeed in my game for it would end it right then and there. YMMV.Quote:
So, assuming the forces of shadow do bring back Morgoth, then what? It seems such a force on Middle-Earth would be much too much to handle. How could any group, of even the most epic levels, ever hope to stand a chance against such a foe without divine intervention?
You are far too kind sir. I thank you for your words :)Quote:
Originally posted by ben hur
I imagine he's powerful enough to rebuild a body if he was ever returned (as AslanC's excellent chronicle may deal with).
But as I said above, I have been warned enough to know just how powerful Morgoth/Melkor is. I would be surprised if I had him take form again.
Though I watched Rosemary's Baby last night and it has given me some ideas :)
Quote:
Originally posted by ben hur
To put it simply: Morgoth is almost exactly the same as Sauron, but even more powerful.
Morgoth is one of the Ainur (basically angels?), as is Sauron. Morgoth is a Vala, Sauron is a Maia (Valar are the more powerful of the Ainur; the Maiar are consequently the weaker).
Actually Sauron is not a Ainur. He is a Maiar. They are spirits (or powers if you like) of lesser strenght than the Ainur.
In fact some of the most well known Maiar on Middle Earth were the Istari (Gabdalf, Saruman and company) and also was Melian, Thingol's spouse. (That was of course in the 1st and 2nd age)
This is what the encyclopedia has to say about the MaiarQuote:
For more information, read the Silmarillion (which reads rather like Genesis at some points; yikes!), or visit the Morgoth entry in the Encyclopedia of Arda.
Hope this helps!
Sorry, but yes, Sauron was an Ainur; the Maiar are the less powerful of the Ainur, the Valar are the more powerful of the Ainur.Quote:
Originally posted by Eol
Actually Sauron is not a Ainur. He is a Maiar. They are spirits (or powers if you like) of lesser strenght than the Ainur.
In fact some of the most well known Maiar on Middle Earth were the Istari (Gabdalf, Saruman and company) and also was Melian, Thingol's spouse. (That was of course in the 1st and 2nd age)
Even your own link (to the Maiar) says so. :)
And yep, there were some pretty famous Maia in Middle-earth: Sauron, Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, the other Istari, the Balrogs, and so on.
Ah, well, I'm just guessing that it's excellent. ;) :D But seriously, I really like all the data that you've collected on your chronicle, looks cool, keep it up. :cool:Quote:
Originally posted by AslanC
You are far too kind sir. I thank you for your words.
But as I said above, I have been warned enough to know just how powerful Morgoth/Melkor is. I would be surprised if I had him take form again.
Yeah, I thought you were going that way, of having them 'try' to get Morgoth back but fail. I think it's a nice plotline to have the Enemy attempting to bring him back and, while utterly failing, still fighting pretty hard without him.
Damn it....yes you are right....:eek:Quote:
Originally posted by ben hur
Sorry, but yes, Sauron was an Ainur; the Maiar are the less powerful of the Ainur, the Valar are the more powerful of the Ainur.
Even your own link (to the Maiar) says so. :)
And yep, there were some pretty famous Maia in Middle-earth: Sauron, Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, the other Istari, the Balrogs, and so on.
For some reason i have connected the Ainur with the Valar and thought of the Mair as adifferent 'race'. But yes you are right Sauron was an Ainur, he simply wasn't a Valar but a Maiar.
Sorry for the confusion :o
No worries. :cool: It's a confusing concept, that only gets worse when you realize that some of the Valar are also considered Aratar... basically the highest of the high. :)Quote:
Originally posted by Eol
Sorry for the confusion :o
So Mandos, for example, is of the race Ainur (angels), the division Valar (higher angels), and the order Aratar (highest of the higher angels), and he in particular is known as the High King of Arda (highest of the highest higher angels). :D
Who's on first?Quote:
Originally posted by ben hur
So Mandos, for example, is of the race Ainur (angels), the division Valar (higher angels), and the order Aratar (highest of the higher angels), and he in particular is known as the High King of Arda (highest of the highest higher angels). :D
and one more
Mandos the Hands of Fate
;)
Seriously, Eru is the one above them all or does he/she have peers as well?
Actually, I think you mean Manwe here, and not Mandos...while Mandos is one of the Aratar, it's Manwe who is considered King of Arda. :)Quote:
Originally posted by ben hur
No worries. :cool: It's a confusing concept, that only gets worse when you realize that some of the Valar are also considered Aratar... basically the highest of the high. :)
So Mandos, for example, is of the race Ainur (angels), the division Valar (higher angels), and the order Aratar (highest of the higher angels), and he in particular is known as the High King of Arda (highest of the highest higher angels). :D
Greg
Did I say Mandos? That's really odd! I was going to give an example of Mandos, then I switched to Manwë because I thought it was cool that he's the High King. My bad! :DQuote:
Originally posted by Greg Davis
Actually, I think you mean Manwe here, and not Mandos...while Mandos is one of the Aratar, it's Manwe who is considered King of Arda. :)
Greg