The Matrix Revolutions?: Spoilers

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11-05-2003, 05:17 PM
whiteknight

The Matrix Revolutions?: Spoilers

I just saw Revolutions and I can't make up my mind if I liked it or not. There are some things I'm still confused on. I have played the video game and it really did help with some background info on new characters. What do you guys and girls think? SPOILERS AHEAD:

I realize most of you probably don't have the answers to some of these questions, but I thought I'd throw them out there anyways.

1) What was Seraph's connection to the Merovingian? They obviously recognize each other in the club scene. This probably isn't a maj0r point but I wanna know darnit. :D

2) If all programs are put in the Matrix for a purpose, what is or was the Merovingians purpose?

3) In the subway station where Neo wakes up and talks to the little girl and her family, what was it that the father said was his purpose in the Matrix? It was something to do with regulating power or something but I missed it. Again not a major point but I'm curious. I knew in "Reloaded" I saw someone being escorted out of the restaurant just as Neo and co. are walking in and was curious what that was about.

4) The little girl (Seti?) seems to have One-like powers at the end. Is she just another One in the cycle or is she something new? In the game, the Oracle talks about sacrificing her old shell to help two programs and their child. She says she did so because the child was important and one day would change both the real world and the Matrix world forever.

5) What do you think the Oracle represents? Is she God? Why does Smith call her "Mom" ?

6) Who is the Arcitect? Is he just a reprsentation of the machine thing that Neo talks to at the end?

7) Smith's little deja vu thing at the end suggests that all this has happened exactly this way before. Has every previous version of the Matrix ended this same way?

That's all I can think of for now. Thanks.
11-05-2003, 07:43 PM
Publius

Re: The Matrix Revolutions?: Spoilers

Let me begin by saying that I have the same ambivilence that you do here. I thought the movie was good, but I'm not sure it was good enough. Action, plot, pacing, etc. were fine in other words but I'm not sure how much I actually liked it. I had the same sense with Farscape. I liked it at the beginning, and it took a left turn that just didn;t interest me, the shows were just as good and there was nothing technically wrong about it (they are actually excellent) but it wasn't something I resonated with for some reason. That might be the same thing here. Maybe you have to watch them all together or something, maybe it is one of those things you have to watch more than once.

SPOILERS

Quote:

Originally posted by whiteknight
1) What was Seraph's connection to the Merovingian?

Dunno. He may have been one of the Merovingian's tools in the past, like the ghost twins from the last one. Also, it seemed like the Merovingian (Merv) is the one that helps most programs get out of the system; perhaps he helped Seraph get out, then Seraph joined up with the Oracle.

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[2) If all programs are put in the Matrix for a purpose, what is or was the Merovingians purpose?[/B]

Doesn;t overly matter. The fellow in the Train station hardly looked like a Power Plant. Maybe Merv was a Buggy Whip or something. Remember, these are the programs that no longer serve a useful purpose. Maybe he was the program for good network television or Commodore Amigas.

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[3) In the subway station where Neo wakes up and talks to the little girl and her family, what was it that the father said was his purpose in the Matrix? It was something to do with regulating power or something but I missed it. Again not a major point but I'm curious. I knew in "Reloaded" I saw someone being escorted out of the restaurant just as Neo and co. are walking in and was curious what that was about. [/B]

That was him being escorted out I think. He was a Power control program at a power plant I think, his wife was some sort of adaptive software.

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[4) The little girl (Seti?) seems to have One-like powers at the end. Is she just another One in the cycle or is she something new? In the game, the Oracle talks about sacrificing her old shell to help two programs and their child. She says she did so because the child was important and one day would change both the real world and the Matrix world forever.[/B]

Game? I assume you mean the video game or something. Maybe the Kid is important, she did say that the beautiful sunrise was her doing at the end. There are actually several places where they can spin off something new in this movie and this is just one of them.

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[5) What do you think the Oracle represents? Is she God? Why does Smith call her "Mom" ? [/B]

If the Architect is the Father of the Matrix, the Oracle is the Mother. She is the one the Architect discusses at his long rambling speech at the end of reloaded - the program designed to explore certain aspects of human awareness that came up with the idea of inserting choice into the Matrix, thus making it more stable. To be honest, I was hoping that the Brothers Wachoski (sp?) were going to throw a curve ball on that one. I was hoping it was going to be Persephone, because (a) she was a character that had a small but prominent role in Reloaded, thus is not totally new and (b) it would give one good reason that the Merovingian had survived all that time "underground", if that program were helping him, he'd have it easy. (c) It would have been sufficiently 'twisty' for my taste. Plus I thought that the way the Architect said "please" when Neo guessed he was referring to the Oracle in Reloaded was a way of dismissing the notion. ("Wanna go out with me?" "Please!")

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[6) Who is the Arcitect? Is he just a reprsentation of the machine thing that Neo talks to at the end?[/B]

Nope. The Machine Thing is the Big AI I think, the brain behind the Machines (or at least it's mouthpiece; the Logos should have had a working Pinch/EMP and it was at ground Zero). The Architect is the one that controls the Matrix, which is just one subset of the job that the Machines do. Think of the Architect as the manager of the power station that is humanity. He uses the Matrix to keep them alive and bio-energizing, that's his part in the overall scheme.

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[7) Smith's little deja vu thing at the end suggests that all this has happened exactly this way before. Has every previous version of the Matrix ended this same way?[/B]

I don't think so. "That was a dangerous game." et al. The other versions of the Matrix ended when their versions of the "One" accepted and went into the little door at the end of Reloaded. They went into the Source (which may or may not be that big nasty AI that Neo talked to at the end, or maybe the pure program that runs the Matrix which the Architect then watchdogs) and the selection process for new Zion/re-start of the Matrix happened all over again. Notice that the Matrix changes only after Neo... well at the end of the movie lets say (spoiler alert has been given, but lets still keep the ending hush for now). He basically went before the Source, his data was re-integrated into the system and it started all over again. Maybe the other versions equivalent of Mr. Smith never got so strong so fast, maybe they never appeared at all (Merv said Neo was more capable than the others and if Smith is his opposite, that would make smith more powerful too). The deja vu was because of the person "underneath" that particular Smith (spoiler thing again, think about it)
11-05-2003, 08:17 PM
Balok

Re: The Matrix Revolutions?: Spoilers

Quote:

Originally posted by whiteknight
SPOILERS AHEAD:

1) What was Seraph's connection to the Merovingian? They obviously recognize each other in the club scene. This probably isn't a maj0r point but I wanna know darnit. :D

We're never told. However, Seraph was a powerful AI, associated with the Oracle. The Oracle is a key player in the Matrix, it is reasonable to assume that she and her command structure are known to other AIs.

Quote:

Originally posted by whiteknight
2) If all programs are put in the Matrix for a purpose, what is or was the Merovingians purpose?

Again, we can only speculate. However, based on what he does in the Matrix, it is likely that he is some sort of resource manager, or possibly a high-level scheduler: the program that decides who gets what resources, and when, and then makes it happen through various votaries.

Quote:

Originally posted by whiteknight
3) In the subway station where Neo wakes up and talks to the little girl and her family, what was it that the father said was his purpose in the Matrix? It was something to do with regulating power or something but I missed it.

That's it. He was, essentially, the operating system for a power center.

Quote:

Originally posted by whiteknight
6) Who is the Arcitect? Is he just a reprsentation of the machine thing that Neo talks to at the end?

The machine thing and the Architect are equivalent; each is a representation of the controlling machine intelligence that is appropriate to the milieu where it exists.
11-06-2003, 04:12 AM
T'lara

Loved Matrix.
Loved Matrix Reloaded.
Matrix Revolutions... WHAT HAPPENED? Did they start rebuilding? Did they and the machines even start talking after Neo's sacrifice to save both races? Did the Humans leave underground? What happened to Neo's body?
Usually in a film like this you get something like that. At the end we get Oracle and the Architect debate humanity? At the end it as all about the Machines?
And just for the big Question what the hell happened to the Merovingian? I wanted him to get it. God I did. AND THE FILM did not have enough of him! He was awsome in Matrix Reloaded but in Matrix Revolutions it felt rushed and incoherient. I am not sure I liked it or not.
Great Fight Scenes and such but more Neo for my taste. Alas maybe just me.
11-06-2003, 10:58 AM
Publius

I agree they did not tie those ends up at all. The end is not as certain as you might think even, after all Smith came back when Neo did it to him right? I can even think of brainmapping technology hand-waiving to get someone else back too... well those of you who saw it know what I mean. As far as the Merovingian, I liked the character but remember, he was in it for kicks: that was what prompted Trinity's showdown. She was playing for keeps, he was just playing. I thought that the scene he was in put his character into context perfectly.

Loose ends, complete in some respects, not in others. Tantilizing. Kinda like the first movie eh? Revolutions was a closure in some respects, certainly not in others. It leaves all kinds of loose ends for future sequels (whether they have said stuff to the contrary or not) and actually, in a purely self-interested vein, in the possibility for gaming.

You now have a truce, a peace of sorts between humanity and the machines. Of course there was a condition of peace between the Americans and the Soviets after WWII and what resulted? a Cold War. Cold Wars are fertile grounds for espionage, small group activities and the like. Neo brokered the peace, what is humanity going to agree on with the machines for the future truce between them? Not only that, but the machines might decide it is in their better interest to whack the humans anyway... or a portion of them... faction splitting over "the Human Question" creating odd alliances and such, criss-cross double-cross I love it! The Merovingian can play a role in this as well as an information broker, a potentially huge role, as will the folk in Zion, Rabbit and all the others. I think that Morpheus' stock just went up and Lockes' went down after the end; how will he react to the Machines now?
11-06-2003, 12:02 PM
Balok

One sentence I found especially interesting:

Oracle: Do you mean it?
Architect: Of course I mean it. Do I look like a human?

There are two possibilities; one being that the machines have studied humans and understand their penchant for betrayal. But I thought there was a touch much venom for that to be the explanation; I suspect that this all started with some event, or series of events, that constituted a betrayal of the machines by humans -- at least to the machines' perceptions. Such a memory would account for the Architect identifying humans by a prominent characteristic: liars.
11-06-2003, 10:36 PM
Publius

Fesarius, have you seen the Animatrix?

In "The Second Rennaissance", we get what I think is the Machine's point of view on the history of Machine and Man. It does not paint a rosy picture of us: savagery, greed, corruption, folly.

There we get the Trial of B166ER (who killed in self defense); the human response to the protests that came afterwards; the Machine's creation of "01" (poss. the Machine City) and its eventual blockade because it produced goods too well; the UN debacle where the machines tried to get humans to reason out their differences; the nuking of 01 and the Dark Storm Effect perpetrated by humanity ("It was we who scorched the sky..."); the Machines retalliation (including the Biowar component, ew) then finally the use it put humanity as a powersource ("Hey Coppertop")

Humanity has proven itself to be extremely untrustworthy to the Machines, at least from their perspective. Still, the Machines have no reason to really go back on their word, at least for now. I think that they would be completely assured that they have the upper hand. The small amount of people that free themselves from the Matrix (with help) cannot possibly upset the birth/death ratio balance of Coppertops in the Power Plant. Zion only consists of a Quarter Million people, the Machines outnumber them and have greater technology. I still like the idea of a gameworld based on Post-Revolutions, there is a lot of possibility there.
11-06-2003, 10:41 PM
qerlin

Missed the second one; heard it wasn't that good. Everything I'm hearing makes it sound like they could have made a pass or two at editing the story before making this one.

Ah well...got the first one to watch.
11-08-2003, 06:06 PM
Siroth

More replies

I realize others have already given good answers to these, but I feel like answering a few of them myself.

Quote:

Originally posted by whiteknight
1) What was Seraph's connection to the Merovingian? They obviously recognize each other in the club scene. This probably isn't a maj0r point but I wanna know darnit. :D

The Merovingian calls Seraph the 'prodigal son', but also calls him Judas. It seems clear that Seraph was once a subordinate of the Merovingian, but then turned against him for some reason.

Incidentally, Seraph is an interesting name. Maybe you all know it already, but I'll just say it for the sake of completeness.

Remember how the Oracle tells Neo that errant programs are all over the place in Reloaded? She says, "Every time you hear a story about a ghost, an angel, or aliens, it's the Matrix trying to assimilate some program doing something that it's not supposed to."

Well, a Seraph is one of the Seraphim, the highest choir of angels. Apparently Seraph is very much one of those errant programs himself...

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2) If all programs are put in the Matrix for a purpose, what is or was the Merovingians purpose?

I think he was probably some program dealing with the traffic of information in and out of the program, who then made a life for himself there, when a better program was written to replace him.

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3) In the subway station where Neo wakes up and talks to the little girl and her family, what was it that the father said was his purpose in the Matrix? It was something to do with regulating power or something but I missed it. Again not a major point but I'm curious. I knew in "Reloaded" I saw someone being escorted out of the restaurant just as Neo and co. are walking in and was curious what that was about.

Rama-Kandra did exactly what you suspect. And yes, he is indeed the one we just glimpse walking away from the Merovingian's table as Neo, Trinity, and Morpheus approach it in Reloaded. If you have the Reloaded DVD (as I do), you can even verify that Rama-Kandra is on the list of characters in the end titles. Other than that, we didn't learn much about him, though.

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4) The little girl (Seti?) seems to have One-like powers at the end. Is she just another One in the cycle or is she something new? In the game, the Oracle talks about sacrificing her old shell to help two programs and their child. She says she did so because the child was important and one day would change both the real world and the Matrix world forever.

Sadly I haven't played 'Enter the Matrix', so I can't help you.

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5) What do you think the Oracle represents? Is she God? Why does Smith call her "Mom" ?

She is a program written to supplement the Architect by exploring the human psyche to help find out why humans initially rejected the Matrix. Being second only to the Architect would make her a powerful program indeed, and the Architect even says in 'Reloaded' that if he is the father, then she would undoubtedly be its mother. That could explain Smith's comment. But it might also be that Smith was originally written by the Oracle, though there is no information to further support that.

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6) Who is the Arcitect? Is he just a reprsentation of the machine thing that Neo talks to at the end?

He is the program that created the Matrix. I don't think he is the same as the 'machine thing' Neo talks to, but he might have been created by it - he certainly is important enough that that might be the case.

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7) Smith's little deja vu thing at the end suggests that all this has happened exactly this way before. Has every previous version of the Matrix ended this same way?

Don't forget that Smith is multiplying by copying himself onto other programs and human minds in the Matrix. That is why *everyone* in the Matrix is Smith during the final confrontation. The individual Smith that Neo is fighting is the Oracle. Note at the end when Smith and Neo are in the crater alone and they both 'explode'. After that the Oracle is suddenly lying there alone. Clearly she was the version of Smith that Neo was fighting, and when so when he had his deja vu, he was unwittingly using the Oracle's power to see the future. This might have been because he was seeing through her eyes at Neo. Note how the Merovingian is interested in obtaining the eyes of the Oracle. There is a point there, though it is sadly not explored much.
11-09-2003, 05:48 AM
Evan van Eyk

Re: The Matrix Revolutions?: Spoilers

Quote:

Originally posted by whiteknight

1) What was Seraph's connection to the Merovingian? They obviously recognize each other in the club scene. This probably isn't a maj0r point but I wanna know darnit. :D

It actually quite obvious what his connection is. The trainmain smuggles all those programs out, which do not want to return to the source, and by this being deleted. We have an indication on that already in Reloaded, when the Oracle tells Neo about the Merovingian. The oracle itself is a rogue program, thuns only a rogue program can be its protector - as the agents would certainly never protect it. So at some point Seraph has to be rescued by Mero and he probably demanded his services as a compensation. But obviously Seraph choose to leave him and therefore Mero is a bit angry on him.

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2) If all programs are put in the Matrix for a purpose, what is or was the Merovingians purpose?

Well. That is a difficult question. It is obvious that Mero knows about the earlier Neos from the former Matrizes. Maybe his acutal purpose is exactly what he is doing, hiding exiles. Without him, there would be no keymaker, because the agents would have killed him far earlier. But without keymaker, the One cannot reach the source and thus can not reboot the Matrix. So maybe the architect placed Mero exactly where he is now right in the first place.

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4) The little girl (Seti?) seems to have One-like powers at the end. Is she just another One in the cycle or is she something new? In the game, the Oracle talks about sacrificing her old shell to help two programs and their child. She says she did so because the child was important and one day would change both the real world and the Matrix world forever.

If I remember correctly in "Enter the Matrix" she says she lost her shell to Smith. In "Revolutions" she says it was a prize for the Merovingian. The truth it it was never part of the story, but the actress playing the oracle died during production so this step was necessary. Another hole is that in "ETM" the oracle has the new look, before she speaks to Neo in "Reloaded". I assume at that point they were not yet sure why she looked different and even at the end its somewhat vague.
However I think the girls importance comes from her meeting him at the station. Neo realizes that programs can be almost human, feeling love and fear. She explains to him where he is, which furthers his skills to search and see the Matrix without being plugged in.

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5) What do you think the Oracle represents? Is she God? Why does Smith call her "Mom" ?

Because that is what she is. In "Reloaded" the architect tells Neo that if he is the father, than the oracle is the mother of the Matrix. He is the mind, she is the emotion. As these both programs created the Matrix, its the closest thing to a Mom, Smith can have.

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6) Who is the Arcitect? Is he just a reprsentation of the machine thing that Neo talks to at the end?

Yes. Looking at the face of the Machine thing, you can see that it is the samae as the architect, although I believe the architect is a mere sub-program of it.

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7) Smith's little deja vu thing at the end suggests that all this has happened exactly this way before. Has every previous version of the Matrix ended this same way?

No. Smith never acted like that before. And it was no deja-vu, it was a vision. Actually it was a trap set by the oracle. Smith saw exactly what he wanted to see - and ended there. He never understood Neos decision and therefore could not see past it, with him dying for all mankind and thus saving it and destroying him. But that never happened before as it could only happen with the help of the "Masterprogram". Additionally by being part Smith the oracle was able to give Neo a hint on what to do - "Everything that has a beginning has an end".

Smith actually knew it himself. In Reloaded he tells Neo that he is the connection, which made Smith stay in the Matrix - so with Neo gone, Smith goes too.
11-10-2003, 10:10 AM
Tobian

Well i saw it on the first day it came out and yes like several others i was a little disapointed. The special effects were amazing, but often they felt pointless. - Everything in the previous films had a purpose - a conectedness to the story - but moreso in this film it felt really overdone for and underdone plot - and there was too much icing thrown in.

I can kind of see why they had to go to the machine city - because Neo had to be directly connected to the source to do what he did - I am guessing because the source was the only one with the ability to do it, it appears that the architect was the mind - he did all of the thinking and ballanced the equation as was quoted - but he couldn't see a way round the chaos of agent smith - therefore he couldn't stop him. The only way to the Source had been destroyed in the last film - or at least no one with the knowledge of how to get there was still around (the Keymaker or the Oracle) - so Neo had to take the direct route there.

Agent smith couldn't see what was going to happen because like Neo he knew what had to happen, but he couldn't see why he had to do it, so therefore he didn't forsee it correctly or at all - you can't see past the decisions you don't understand - and that was also true of the Oracle

With regards to Seti - she may not have had 'Neo like power's' at all - she may have simply been given the job to controll the sky - after all - programmes need a purpose, The oracle said it herself that everything in the matrix was controlled by a programme - and they changed and were replaced all the time.. of course the reasons for that are entirelly superflous....

I think alot of the time you can sit back and see that some director has went "wouldn't it be really cool if there were like these big spiders and they shot millions of.." etc etc.. - a case of letting the tail wag the dog.. yeah all the films were guilty of it, but I think in this case they should have expanded the detail and shrunk the special effects.. maybe there'll be an extended directors edition with a few more bits and some better balancing issues which could help allot.
11-16-2003, 09:25 AM
Joe Dizzy

While discussing the Matrix movies with a friend I realized that I have the same reaction to them most people have with the original Star Wars trilogy and vice versa.

I thought The Matrix was a cool little action flick, but endlessly hyped, heralded and occasionally labelled a groundbreakling sci-fi movie (which I very much disagree with).
Star Wars to me at least is the best movie of the series. It's well rounded and fun.

The Matrix Reloaded on the other hand actually was all those things. A smart sci-fi movie, with some great action pieces. IMO it easily surpassed part 1, by simply being less "slight-of-hand" storytelling and actual story.
Empire Strikes Back is very much a re-writing of all the themes and concepts that worked so well in Star Wars to allow for sequels to be made. It seems a great number of people consider it a better movie, I think it's just boring for the most part.

The Matrix Revolutions was just a haphazard wrap-up for most of the plot threads left dangling in Reloaded. Some nice bits, some bits to ignore and a lot of imagery, that's supposed to be "deep and meaningful" but ultimately just looks pretty.
Return of the Jedi is nice. It's kind of a best-of list of the first two movies, plus some added bits to get some sympathy for the b-plot of the movie. Nothing ground-breaking or gripping, but it wraps up the universe nicely.

Joe