Murdering b@$+@&ds...

Schoolkids murdered. Schoolkids. And this wasn't a random attack with a long range rocket or a spray of machinegun fire. This $#!+head got on to that bus, saw it was full of kids, and blew them to kingdom come. (And himself straight to hell) Last week one of these animals infiltrated a settlement and bravely shot an unarmed woman and her two kids to death at point-blank range with an AK-47. In another West Bank town, they ampushed a religious procession. Where's the outrage? Why are the flaming crapweasels at the UN standing by and doing nothing? Why are we telling the Israelis to hold back when dealing with this. Why are they listening to us? The more this sort of thing goes on, the more I favor the phrase "Deus lo vult!"...

Wasn't one Holocaust enough?

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Originally posted by Cybrludite
Schoolkids murdered. Schoolkids. And this wasn't a random attack with a long range rocket or a spray of machinegun fire. This $#!+head got on to that bus, saw it was full of kids, and blew them to kingdom come. (And himself straight to hell) Last week one of these animals infiltrated a settlement and bravely shot an unarmed woman and her two kids to death at point-blank range with an AK-47. In another West Bank town, they ampushed a religious procession. Where's the outrage? Why are the flaming crapweasels at the UN standing by and doing nothing? Why are we telling the Israelis to hold back when dealing with this. Why are they listening to us? The more this sort of thing goes on, the more I favor the phrase "Deus lo vult!"...

Wasn't one Holocaust enough?

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Let's see;

1) They are animals.
2) The UN has been the mouth piece of the 3rd world for the last 20 or so years.
3) Moral Superiority. Hypocritic Superiority if you ask me, particularly from the States. A war in Afganistan and Iraq is all well and good, but if someone else does the same thing then they get slapped by Uncle Sam.

BTW watch the news about this. I'll bet the Arab attack will get about 2 minutes coverage in one newscast, and Israeli retailiation will get coverage for the next week.

Methinks its past time for the Jews to practice a few Roman tactics...

like Decimation and sowing the ground with salt.

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Originally posted by First of Two
Methinks its past time for the Jews to practice a few Roman tactics...

like Decimation and sowing the ground with salt.

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They won't do it. That's the real irony about all this. In the face of this sort of attack, either by percentage of population affected or number of casualties (whichever is less), anyone else would have made the Palestinians as mythical as Troy by this point. The Palis rejected a generous peace offer, and responded with a reign of terror. I can't imagine any Christian country turning the other cheek so many times.

One side strikes at the other. side a strikes, b askes for help. b gets help, then starts striking back. A is not able to call for help.

I agree that one holocaust was enough and I wonder why Israel practices methods other dictators used before.
They force the Palastenians to live in so called 'refugee' camps, which they are not allowed to leave no matter if they ever had a criminal record or not. There are many people which never saw anything else than these camps. They are born there, they live there and they die there because of the terrible medical supply, or retaliations.
I do not agree that the 'worst' Palestenians are those who enter the bus and kill all people/ kids in there. This certainly is a terrible crime, but the really worse are those who tell these young men ( I imagine that they are younger than me, and I am not that old ) what a heroic deed it is and so on. They themselve certainly do not believe this to be Alas will but use there 'puppets in the string' to bulster their power and influence.
However the Israelis are not better. They did not agree to let in UN troops to make peace in their country and steadily fire up the hate between those two people out of the same reasons to bulster their power and influence. If I had to say anything in the world, I would imprison Arafad and Sharon alike, both are war-criminals and then let them settle their disput in private.
What I do not understand is why the Israelis steadily provoke the Palestenians by invading their grounds and built up settlements and I cannot understand why the Palestenians enter busses, discos whatever to bomb innocent people and children.
I do not say, there is any good or bad in this conflict, but certainly the Israelis are not 'innocent', nor are the Palestenians.
Arafat had his chance to come to terms with Barak - he denied those. The response was Sharon being elected and since then we have this fights again.

BTW sowing the soil with salt is useless, because they Israelis already took the valuable land from the Palestenians. Hmmm reminds me of South Africa...


What i find terrifying is the fact of generalisation. All Palis are terrorists for the Israelis and otherwise alike.
I saw Palis training their children, hardly ten years old, firing weapons and actually shooting only just past them to drive them forward on a training course. I saw Palestinians killing two recruits of the Israelis, who simply lost track and ended up in the wrong neighborhood.
I saw Israelis shooting at children, who threw stones. They did not shoot with rubber bullets, but with real ones. Great idea - Killing them will convince their brothers, sisters parents, uncles... that in fact Israelis are actually nice guys and real friends.
Somehow I dare to questions this.
Straight speaking, the Israelis surpress the Palestinians and they try to justify their terrorism with that. neither of them is smart enough to see, that stopping to do so, would end this terrible conflict. How do you want to convince a college student to grab a pack of TNT and kill people when he is actually a friend of them, can live freely and do what he wants?
How do you convince a soldier to shoot children, if they are not driven by 'demagoges' and do not attack you?

There are criminals on both sides - the problem is that those lead the people.

Well spoken, Evan.

I think this conflict has reached a point where neither side is right or wrong. There is just hatred - hatred from retaliations against retaliations that were themselves retaliations from another retaliation - and the will to destroy the other.

A Jewish co-worker with wich I discussed this once answered that this was not true, since Israel has the power to utterly wipe out any living Palestinian and does not. That's probably true. To me it shows that Israel has managed to keep one level of humanity in this war. But that doesn't prove that the Palestinians have lost this level of humanity either, since we can't know what they would do with Israel's arsenal (we can guess, but that's not a fact, isn't it ?).

The only victims of this war are homo sapiens sapiens. It's far too late to decide who's right and wrong. You can find atrocities in both sides. It must be stopped, that's all.

Sadly, the only forseeable solution to stop this conflict so far seems to be for the Israelian to utterly wipe out any living Palestinian.

I just hope it won't happen, for Israel would win peace to the price of becoming worse than its ennemies.

Posted by Evan Van Eyk:

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However the Israelis are not better. They did not agree to let in UN troops to make peace in their country and steadily fire up the hate between those two people out of the same reasons to bulster their power and influence.

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This will happen over their dead bodies, only (Sharon and Arafat I mean). A U.N. intervention would be seen as a sign of weakness by Sharon and a personal insult to Arafat for not protecting his people and resorting to outside non-arab help.

Posted by Evan Van Eyk:

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What I do not understand is why the Israelis steadily provoke the Palestenians by invading their grounds

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Israelis don't provoke anyone. Its the fundamentalist Zionist Israelis which build the settlements. Though in reality, if peace were possible Israel would remove them by force. Back in '76, Israel had settlements built in the Sinai peninsula, ALL of them were removed once the peace was signed.

I agree with you, neither side is innocent in this conflict. The only way this conflict will end is when one side is completely removed from the area or that wall the Israelis are building actually works. Watch the next elections, Netanyahu is much more a right winger than Sharon. His chances of becoming elected are quite high. And if he does than Sharon may become a "moderate" by their standards. Of course they all pale by comparison to Golda Meir.

The only good Palestinian is a dead Palestinian.

All I can say, this is not the first nor shall be the last, as long as radicals right-wing fundamentalists on both side still exist, the moderates who wants peace will suffer.

Again, that's what you get when you do not control the extremists.

I got to the sad, dissapointing stage where I pray that God deny humanity the Earthly Paradise and just sink the Israeli and Palestinian state into the sea like Atlantis. We humanity shed so much blood on that Holy Land to appease God and gain favors as His Favorite Children, we lost sight on the Gift He's given us, whatever is it that chose us to exist.

While I may share some similiar views as presented here.

I am speaking as a moderator after several reports of concern in the nature of this thread and racial like attitudes that may or may not have been intentionally expressed.

Please do not make such comprhensive statements a bout a people overall. When it is individuals who are at fault.

Thanks

SIG the Moderator ;)

I would just like to present a few points here.

1) After the '73 War Moshe Dayan saw to it that Israel's borders were as open as they could be. Palis didn't need ID to enter to go to work or their daily business. He tried to make it so both sides could live in peace, and how was he repaid? More terror attacks. The people I blame here are the so-called "peace loving' Palistines, if they were so peace loving they would hand over all the terrorists to PROPER authorities (not their own people who turn them loose as soon as everyones back is turned.)

2) Why should either side allow UN moderators in? Would the US allow UN moderators in if Texas decided to leave the Union? I don't think so. Not to mention the UN is a totally useless organ, and has been for a very long time.

The Palestinians have resorted to terror tactics in order to prevent their plight from being forgotten by the rest of the world. They know that terror is news and news, even the bad, keeps Palestine in the public eye. Israel has never bargained with the Palestinians in good faith, and Sharon has seen fit to destroy the reputation of the one individual whom the majority of Palestinians respected. Arafat no longer has the confidence of his people, and one can only wonder how soon the whole matter will come to genocide... of the Palestinian people. Should it go that far, Israel will become worse villains than any Hitler could ever be, in my mind, having passed through one Holocaust only to commit a second themselves.

To me, this is not so much infuriating or alarming as it is tragic.

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Originally posted by Lt.Khrys Antos
Posted by Evan Van Eyk:


This will happen over their dead bodies, only (Sharon and Arafat I mean). A U.N. intervention would be seen as a sign of weakness by Sharon and a personal insult to Arafat for not protecting his people and resorting to outside non-arab help.

Posted by Evan Van Eyk:


Israelis don't provoke anyone. Its the fundamentalist Zionist Israelis which build the settlements.

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I see thinks differently. First of all, Arafat asked UN for involvement, for sending troops ( its been some time ago, I thinks it is more than a year ). The Israelis denied that. While I understand this to be a 'inner affair' I think if they are so interested in peace they should have allowed this. ( Note: When speaking of the Israelis, I mean the government, which represents that people, that does not mean that all Israelis are warmongers ). The fear of showing weakness here actually makes clear what the real intentions are - power greed. Power is more valued than peace. however that is nonsense, because if Sharon had finanally managed a peace, he certainly would have become far more powerful than now, where his government is 'threatened' by even more radical politicians.

Next there are government supported prgrammes to built settlements on grounds which where long ago agreed upon to be Palistinian. And fi these are the deeds of dundamentalists, why not simply get your bulldozer there, remove the houses now as a sign of good faith? The government would show justice, instead of injustice.
And the maybe worst provocation was Sharon going along the Tempel-Hill ( not sure if its the true spelling ), on this religious festival of the Palestinians when they had been promised to be left a lone - It is a major insult and religious issue if a 'non-believer' in their eyes walks around the temple on this day. Sharon did so on purpose - the results were the peace talks failed and he came into office.
However Arafat is no better he simply ignored the hand, Barak reached out. Because he wanted Jerusalem in the whole and not just prts of it. That again shows that Arafat also is only interested in power.


And Phantom, you have to see that for the Palestinians do not see Israel as proper authorities, because it is in injust state ( very much like South Africa was ). However that does not mean that thei authorities are much better. Putting a terrorist into a uniform does not make him a cop after all.
I can only hope that soon there is somebody on either side who comes to his senses and that both Arafat and Sharon are removed from office to make room for less power greedy but peaceloving politicians.
However I see the only chance to make that happen, by getting UN troops in their which hold back both sides and so make room for negotiations with a cool mind instead one full of hatred. However that would still take I believe more than a decade.

Arafat has been making noises about bringing in the UN, yes, but the UN has been notoriously biased against Israel. It would be like bringing in the Klu Klux Klan to mediate a dispute between the Black Panthers & Christian Identity... How long have those refuge camps you go on about been in areas controlled by the PA? Couple of years now, right? Mind telling me just how it's Israel's fault that folks are still held there? At any rate, Israel offered Arafat 98% of what he was asking for, with the remaining 2% open for discussion & compromise. He responed with the second Intafada, resulting in the deaths of over 500 Israelis and over 1000 Palestinians.

I'm not certain how one could say Israel has never negotiated in good faith - certainly they have not been perfect saints, but aside from our favorite nation of Sealand, I can't think of one nation that such a judgement could be held up to.

Is it true that there is much ugliness and even terrorism associated with the creation of Israel - yes.

However... Israel as a nation did choose to negotiate with an organization with a "mission statement" being the anihilation of Israel. It chose to negotiate with a terrorist who, while saying the right things in English, has proven very hesitant to do so in Arabic.

Arafat's Palestinian Authority was given one heck of an offer. Can one argue that it was imperfect? Certainly. But the response of Arafat was very disheartening - presented with a very serious Israeli compromise (giving up full control of Jerusalem) he did not respond by asking for more, he walked away. And soon thereafter there is the uprising.

If you are an Israeli citizen on the street, how would you react? How trusting would you be? If you are in the government, what would your new negotiating position be? A unilateral withdrawl from what is considered to be Palestinian territory? They've already told you at the negotiating table that's not even a fraction of what they want.

Would you trust the UN to be fair and unbiased?

These aren't hypothetical questions. They are the questions being faced by the Israelis every day.

(And yes, there are questions being faced by the Palestinian people and leaders every day as well. The foremost being - What do you want? Others being What are you prepared to do for it? Do you hate the Israelis more than you love your children? )

This message has been removed on request by the
poster

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Originally posted by Cybrludite
Mind telling me just how it's Israel's fault that folks are still held there? At any rate, Israel offered Arafat 98% of what he was asking for, with the remaining 2% open for discussion & compromise. He responed with the second Intafada, resulting in the deaths of over 500 Israelis and over 1000 Palestinians.

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Israel government frbids the people to leave their camp. They are underpriviliged in society concerning jobs, social security and justice as well. They are forced to leave in the poor areas the Israelis do not want to live in anything else is taken away from them.
But you are right. Mr. Barak and certainly not least Mr. Clinton managed to set something up. When this was in the news I actually thought - now that is something. It may not be the final answer to the conflict, but it could make the peace needed to find that ending solution and to make them learn how to live together peacefully. I was shocked when Arafat disagreed with that generous offer. Something which 'broke Barak's neck'.
His government was dissolved and Sharon came into power.
I said so before, that this present conflict is primarily created by Arafts denial of the agreements.

In fact that is in my opinion what Arafat actually feared - peace.
He is a military leader, bron out of a neccessity. A Palistinian state would have no use for him as leader, because he knows nothing about international relations, economics or anything else to lead a state. What he knows is how to kill people and manipulate press in a way which comforts his position ( a skill, which sadly seems to be the requirement of a politician rahter than the people's will ).
Actually Sharon and Arafat are very much the same and the conflict would not be different with positions exchanged. If Sharon would be a Palastinian and Arafat and Israeli, they war would rage on the same way. And you are right, Dan, Palastinians want to destroy Israel, and thus the whole situation would not change if the Palastinians were the power in the Holy Land. And one has to remember, that the actual beginners of the whole misery were the Palastinians either. When Israel was formed, they called all Arabs to attack and destroy it - and failed.

However this does not mean Israel is right in surpressing them nor is Palastina in killing innocent children. the point is - one has to trust, one has to forgive or this war will rage on until none of them survived.

And Dan, I tell you how I would react being an Israeli. I would cry, seeing so many young people die, I would cry seeing children bombed because they are of a certain religion and fullfil a purpose. This whole situation is something completely alien to me.
Over here in Germany we have Islam people, Christians, Jews, and far more rare religions. And we do not shoot at each other and kill our children. Why the heck they cannot live as one nation?

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Originally posted by Evan van Eyk
And Dan, I tell you how I would react being an Israeli. I would cry, seeing so many young people die, I would cry seeing children bombed because they are of a certain religion and fullfil a purpose. This whole situation is something completely alien to me.

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On that we agree.

I asked those questions because it is often so easy to think we (i.e. anyone outside of the situation) have an answer. "If they'd just do this then...")

But when thinking about it, I've of late tried to put myself more into the situation of those involved. And my conclusion was... thank God I'm an American and not an Israeli or Palestinian. I could not for the world think of a way out, not with the positions both sides, for whatever reason, find themselves in.

Like it or not the Palestinians are people without a country. "Palestine" is/ was a region, never a nation. The land they live on does not belong to them, it belongs to Israel... or belonged to one of Israel's neighbors before being lost in war.

The Israelis can't afford to let Palestinians have unrestricted access to Israel... they can't afford to keep buying busses.

The Arabs/ Palestinians were blowing up Israelis and trying to "push Israel into the sea" fifty years ago, and have never stopped... the current situation is just a pretext. Even if there were no restrictions on the Palestinians whatsoever, even if they were granted citizenship, there would still be war against Israel.

Israel has been fighting a war for it's existance, and for the lives of it's people, continuously for over 50 years. It is forced by world politics and public opinion to fight this war with one hand tied, while allowing it's enemies to live on the very soil Israeli soldiers fought and died for.

Americans wouldn't stand for it.

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Originally posted by Evan van Eyk
I agree that one holocaust was enough and I wonder why Israel practices methods other dictators used before.

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Just curious (and ignorant) : how was the country of Israel created ? I mean, was it a chart signed by all countries recognizing the existence of Israel, a decree of the UN... ?

I realised I really don't know the answer to that question.

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Originally posted by calguard66
Like it or not the Palestinians are people without a country. "Palestine" is/ was a region, never a nation. The land they live on does not belong to them, it belongs to Israel... or belonged to one of Israel's neighbors before being lost in war.

Even if there were no restrictions on the Palestinians whatsoever, even if they were granted citizenship, there would still be war against Israel.

Israel has been fighting a war for it's existance, and for the lives of it's people, continuously for over 50 years.

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Yet they are a people and by the UN charata, which Israel signed as well has the right of self-determination. If they say we want an own state, they have the right to do this. Of course that does not mean Israel has to leave immidiately and give them anything they want, but you have to remember Israel was created by the British in 1948 it had not existed before. Before that time, it was Palastinian ground, although no real state of that name existed.
And I think you are wrong, when you say that without restrictions, this war would rage on. Maybe some fundamantalists would do a causal bomb attack but that does ETA in Spain as well nevertheless the major parts of the country live in peace.
How doy ou convince a young man ( and woman ) to bomb himself and others into hell, if they have everything they need, f they can be sure their children are treated equally to Israel ones, have the same education and the same possibilites concernng job. Those people have losts perspections which is misused by the fundamantlists.

Israel surpressed a good part of their people for the last 50 years, which is never good. They blame the chidlren and grand children for what their parents and grandparents did 50 years ago only because they are Palastinian. They condem a whole people - so why should they not do for what they are blaimed.
When in 1990 South Africa ceased to exists nobody lost a tear about that. The state was created by European ones and finally surpressed a good deal of its population. They told them where to live, what to do...
The same does Israel. Nobody blaimed the Black inhabitants of SA, why they became violent - the Palastinians are denied that option. While I do not see violence as an option, you may not wonder that violence is answered by violence again.

What Israel does is injust - what Palastinia does is injust as well.
But you cannot arrest the family of a murderer just because the father murdered somebody. That won't work and is injust - at least in the country I live in. But still this is practiced by Israel and Palastina alike. they hate each other because of their origin.

No matter. I see it is a crime to bomb a bus and I think it is a crime to bomb houses. The essence is the same - people are killed.
And i tell you something. If you fight terrorists which threat you existence and begin to use their methods, begin not to care about children killed or innnocents dying, than you already lost the war, because you destroyed yourself or your very essence.

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Originally posted by calguard66
Like it or not the Palestinians are people without a country. "Palestine" is/ was a region, never a nation.

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Actually they do have a country, its called Jordan.

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mftoc.html

C5: You will find something here.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/lawwar.htm

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The only good Palestinian is a dead Palestinian.

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No body call this statement IDIOTIC. Should it not be deleted. Guess you would also have to delete the anti-Israel stuff too.

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The simplest way to solve this problem would be for Isreal to round 'em all up, gas them, and

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Sigh........

How was Israel repressing the Palestinians responsible for 1948? 1957? 1967? 1973?

The "Palestinians" are Arab Muslims... they cannot abide the existance of the state of Israel. Many are not even native to the former Palestine region, they are refugees from elsewhere.

If they have a "right to self detrermination" and their own state, do the Turks living in Germany have the same right? Perhaps Germany would be willing to give up a slice of it's territory to the PLO?

Israel was created by the UN... as much as I dislike the UN, what's done is done. The original idea was that Arab and Jew would live together in the country... but instead the Arabs attacked. The rest is history.

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Originally posted by Evan van Eyk
Yet they are a people and by the UN charata, which Israel signed as well has the right of self-determination. If they say we want an own state, they have the right to do this. Of course that does not mean Israel has to leave immidiately and give them anything they want, but you have to remember Israel was created by the British in 1948 it had not existed before. Before that time, it was Palastinian ground, although no real state of that name existed.
And I think you are wrong, when you say that without restrictions, this war would rage on. Maybe some fundamantalists would do a causal bomb attack but that does ETA in Spain as well nevertheless the major parts of the country live in peace.
How doy ou convince a young man ( and woman ) to bomb himself and others into hell, if they have everything they need, f they can be sure their children are treated equally to Israel ones, have the same education and the same possibilites concernng job. Those people have losts perspections which is misused by the fundamantlists.

Israel surpressed a good part of their people for the last 50 years, which is never good. They blame the chidlren and grand children for what their parents and grandparents did 50 years ago only because they are Palastinian. They condem a whole people - so why should they not do for what they are blaimed.
When in 1990 South Africa ceased to exists nobody lost a tear about that. The state was created by European ones and finally surpressed a good deal of its population. They told them where to live, what to do...
The same does Israel. Nobody blaimed the Black inhabitants of SA, why they became violent - the Palastinians are denied that option. While I do not see violence as an option, you may not wonder that violence is answered by violence again.

What Israel does is injust - what Palastinia does is injust as well.
But you cannot arrest the family of a murderer just because the father murdered somebody. That won't work and is injust - at least in the country I live in. But still this is practiced by Israel and Palastina alike. they hate each other because of their origin.

No matter. I see it is a crime to bomb a bus and I think it is a crime to bomb houses. The essence is the same - people are killed.
And i tell you something. If you fight terrorists which threat you existence and begin to use their methods, begin not to care about children killed or innnocents dying, than you already lost the war, because you destroyed yourself or your very essence.

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Originally posted by calguard66
How was Israel repressing the Palestinians responsible for 1948? 1957? 1967? 1973?

The "Palestinians" are Arab Muslims... they cannot abide the existance of the state of Israel.
If they have a "right to self detrermination" and their own state, do the Turks living in Germany have the same right? Perhaps Germany would be willing to give up a slice of it's territory to the PLO?

Israel was created by the UN... as much as I dislike the UN, what's done is done. The original idea was that Arab and Jew would live together in the country... but instead the Arabs attacked. The rest is history.

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Actually that is moe a counterargument for your side. The Turks certainly could not ask for their own state here in Germany, because they first of all already have one and additionally are only guests here ( sorry, first come, first serve ;) ). And the Palastinians were first there where now Israel is. UN decided to put them together - a not ilogical step concerning the Jewish origins and it is unexcusable how the Palastinians reacted, espceically concerning the suffering of the Jewish people in the recent past. However that does not make right to surpress them now. That is the point about injustice - it cannot be justified.
Please see, that I do not want to make any group of people responsible for what happened - as you said what is done is done. But that does not mean that they have to kill themselves for ever. They could simply stop - both of them and finally live in peace.

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Originally posted by Evan van Eyk
Actually that is moe a counterargument for your side. The Turks certainly could not ask for their own state here in Germany, because they first of all already have one and additionally are only guests here ( sorry, first come, first serve ;) ).

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FIrst come, first serve? Fine. Give the land back to the Celts, you eastern barbarians! :D Technically, we'd have to then give it back to the lake cultures or whomever, but they're long extinct...

This message has been removed on request by the
poster

There's no way the could "just stop" too many extremists on both sides. I only favor the Israelis because IMO the conflict was started by the Arabs... and Israel has been somewhat more restrained.

If it's first come, first served... shouldn't Israel belong to the Caananites, and Germany to the Visigoths or someone? The "Palestinians" have several nations already as well... Egypt, Jordan, Syria, etc. It is interesting to note that there nations are eager to villify Israel for their treatment of fellow Arabs, but are unwilling to allow those same Arabs into their own countries.

In any case, I think that the "Palestinians", or anyone, have a perfect right to wage war against Israel. I am a firm believer in the use of violence to settle disputes. In doing so, however, they must accept the consequences of waging war on their own doorstep.

If the "average" "Palestinian" is weary of war he must do something about those who are blowing up busses in his name.

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Originally posted by Evan van Eyk
Actually that is moe a counterargument for your side. The Turks certainly could not ask for their own state here in Germany, because they first of all already have one and additionally are only guests here ( sorry, first come, first serve ;) ). And the Palastinians were first there where now Israel is. UN decided to put them together - a not ilogical step concerning the Jewish origins and it is unexcusable how the Palastinians reacted, espceically concerning the suffering of the Jewish people in the recent past. However that does not make right to surpress them now. That is the point about injustice - it cannot be justified.
Please see, that I do not want to make any group of people responsible for what happened - as you said what is done is done. But that does not mean that they have to kill themselves for ever. They could simply stop - both of them and finally live in peace.

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Originally posted by Pelagius
Actually they do have a country, its called Jordan.

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mftoc.html

C5: You will find something here.

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Thanks for the link, Pelagius, I will take the time to study the articles there.

BTW, why do you seem to be so bitter already ? Wait to have participated to a thread discussing Enteprise, US international politics, or CODA and D20, and you'll have reasons to be bitter ;) :p (though to be fair, we very seldom come up with insults) !!

The fault of this war falls squarely on the Palistinians.

Here is my reasoning.

If Israel stops their end of the fighting would there be an end to the Homocide Bombing and the killing on the Palistinian end? No it would continue and probably increase.

If Palistein ends its attacks would Israeli tanks still roll into the west bank and gaza? No. why would they? Israel is a Democratic nation and needs world support. If they opress for no reason how can anyone back them.

Palistein needs to end the violence the intiative is theirs. Doesn't anyone notice a pattern in these attacks? The Pals bomb some civilian target. the next day IDF tanks roll into a town, place a curfew, round up militants. All goes quiet and relatively peaceful. Tanks leave. All is quiet all is calm. Until Some Dumbass with a bomb kills more civilians. It is clear who is the actor and who is the reactor in this situation.

The Palistinians in the occupied terrortories are responsible for their own situation by choosing to continue the fight over peace. They live in "refugee camps" because they refuse to let go and except that the lands giving to Israel in 48 are not theirs. Israelis don't fight Arabs because they are Arab. Plenty of Arabs live as Israeli citizens they even serve in the Parliment. Israelis don't hate arabs they hate being attacked over and over agian by many of them.

I have no sympathy for those who dilerbrately kill inocents. If Hamas and alike kept targets to military targets I would have more respect for their cause. Unfortunately they haven't so I don't I couldn't care any less as to their WHY. Israel has shown incredable restraint in this matter. Because Palistein holds the key to end this peacefully as does Israel has the power to end this brutaly.

You say Sharon has need to keep this going to keep him in power. I say he has more motive to bring peace. The leader to end this once and for all will go down as Israel's greatest leader. But he knows he can't so all he can do is protect his people and fight back.

Posted by Ranconteur X:

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The Palestinians have resorted to terror tactics in order to prevent their plight from being forgotten by the rest of the world. They know that terror is news and news, even the bad, keeps Palestine in the public eye. Israel has never bargained with the Palestinians in good faith, and Sharon has seen fit to destroy the reputation of the one individual whom the majority of Palestinians respected. Arafat no longer has the confidence of his people, and one can only wonder how soon the whole matter will come to genocide... of the Palestinian people. Should it go that far, Israel will become worse villains than any Hitler could ever be, in my mind, having passed through one Holocaust only to commit a second themselves.

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Ehud Barak did and so have countless other negotiators. One must realize that everything has to go trough a vote in Israel, so a deal reached by diplomats may be rejected by the politiciens. As far as genocide goes, doubtful IMO, the Israelis have shown restraint for decades now. Their more content with walling themselves off from the outside than anything else.

To Evan Van Eyk:

Just because Arafat asked for help doesn't mean he "wanted" help. Their is a huge difference between what Arab leaders say to Westerners and what they say to their people.

As for Sharon going to the Temple Mount, why not? The Wailing Wall is there, the holiest site in the Jewish religion. The only remaining wall of the second temple of Judah. Arafat goes to the Al-Aqsa Mosque whenever he pleases. Each has a right to the religious sites.

Posted by C5:

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Just curious (and ignorant) : how was the country of Israel created ? I mean, was it a chart signed by all countries recognizing the existence of Israel, a decree of the UN... ?

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In 1948, Israelis had a war of independence and declared themselves a nation-state. They did NOT accept the British plan. That's why they revolted against it. The Palestinians are Arabs and NOT native to this land. They come from the Arab peninsula. There were papers, such as the Balfour Declaration, the White papers and some British-Egyptian communiques on the subject between 1919 and 1945. The British promised the land to both sides, in seperate agreements. Before 1914, Palestine was under Ottoman rule. As far as Arab rule goes, they've been there (as far as I can remember) since the beginning of the first crusade when they invaded Jerusalem.

BTW, Evan you are incorrect. The Palestinians were not first in the present area of Israel. The Jews can claim ancestral heritage to the land. They did after all have a diaspora from the land over 2,000 years ago. I really can't stress this enough, if we take historical claims as paramount then the Israelis have sole rights to the land. The Arabs are "foreigners" by this assessment.

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Originally posted by Lt.Khrys Antos
The Jews can claim ancestral heritage to the land. I really can't stress this enough, if we take historical claims as paramount then the Israelis have sole rights to the land.

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You too are incorrect, Khrys. The Hebrews... from the Sumerian habiru meaning "wanderer" (i.e., a nomadic people)... are not themselves native to the land they claim. It is the land God promised them for upholding their end of the Covenant, not their ancestral home. Abraham, widely held as the father of the Hebrew people, was from the city of Ur in Mesopotamia, not the region currently claimed by the nation of Israel. From a strict historical perspective, Israel should be tussling with Saddam Hussein over the Fertile Crescent.

People think that being Palestinian (stop the stupid quotes around "Palestinian" [argh, I'm doing it now!], whoever keeps doing it) means you have the same cultural identity as let's say... the ones inhabiting Saudi Arabia, Egypt, or even Jordan!

Other Arab countries don't accept Palestinians or if they do, not treat them well because they feel they are different. It's like China, ignorant westerners can't tell between Manchurian, Mongolian, or Cantonese people/culture. Even though Jordan (formerly Transjordan and formerly eastern part of Palestine) has a Palestinian majority, they are under the control of the Hashemites.

Palestinians are opressed in Israel and the disputed areas, but other Arabs are have citizenship and are even in the Knesset. Those Arab-Israelis are mostly Bedouins (spelling?) with only a tiny amount of people we would consider Palestinian. They are very patriotic to their homeland, although they aren't treated as well as their Jewish neighbors, even serve proudly in the army.

There is also a misconception that all Palestinians and also all Arabs in general are Muslim. 10+% of Palestinians are Christian and a smaller percentage are Jewish (they have citizenship in Israel and aren't opressed). Then there are the Yemeni Jews, who were rescued by the Israelis in the 60's who are obviously Arabs (where's Yemen?).

Seriously, the total ignorance of most people really bothers me. It's just like saying that since Philippinos, Thai, Vietnamese, and Indonesians are descendant of Malays, they are all the same! If you really can't tell the difference, do us a favor and shut up. Your lack of knowledge on the subject means that important parts of what you say are invalid.

Also, the reason Sharon's visit to the temple mount pissed off the Palestinian muslims was because he visited the Dome of the Rock. The Dome of the Rock is what the muslims consider holy in the temple mount, while the Jews visit the wailing wall (they are right beside each other). Ariel Sharon, a very right wing, fundamentalist Jew, and blatant anti-Palestinian came to the Dome of the Rock specifically to incite unrest. That he did.

I'm Malay? It must be because I'm filipinos, Ilocano to be regionally and ethnically correct (my parents are Ilocanos which is Spanish-influenced, despite my birth is in Hawaii).

And yes, the Philippines are a mixture of Muslim and Christian denominations, dominance favored the Christians. Most Ilocanos are (if you've just got here, I've always say I'm a lapse Catholics). Whether we're Christian or Muslim or of any religious or atheist denomination, we're all filipinos.

Still, I do not like the Abu Sayeff and their method of terror, and if given a chance, I would kill them on the spot, despite we share ancestry.

* sighs *

I hate it when the Moderates does nothing but talk. Personally they should take actions against their own extremist elements, which is something Yassar Arafat should do. As for wanting him dead, that's not the Israeli's fault. As long as Arafat continues to allow the terror to continue without any effort to put those responsible under arrest and convict them, he falls short of respect in my eyes.

But it is the people who revere him, and anyone who objects him ends up in the gutter. That's why the the 10% minority Palestinian Christians can't do nothing unless they want to be end up vanished. IOW, majority rules.

BTW, don't you hate when a fundamentalist with so little education except for the Koran accuse other Mulsim of not being a Muslim? It's as if they've been ordained to judge who is Muslim and who is not. Who gives them the right to judge? Only Allah, or God have that right.

I'm Philippino too. Mostly Tagalog, but also a bit of Illocano.

We = descendants of ancient Malays.

The Palestinians do not consider this a holy war or anything like that, just the extremist arabs that are outside of the disputed lands (Osama Bin Laden comes to mind) do. The 10% that are Christian are not "forced" to support anything. Yassir Arafat also recognizes them in speeches.

I'm taking no side in this debate, just correcting misconceptions or clarifying intents. I'm no moderate either, I just gave up on the Middle East...

But I WILL add my 2 cents on one part: Ariel Sharon and Yassir Arafat are relics of a bygone era, their continued leadership is reason enough why peace won't come to the area for years to come.

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Originally posted by calguard66

If the "average" "Palestinian" is weary of war he must do something about those who are blowing up busses in his name.

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That is my opinion either. The people have on both sides have to make clear that they no longer want war. (Wow Calguard and me have the same opinion for the second time within a day - including the Sudetenland - reunification comparrison ;) )

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Originally posted by C5
Thanks for the link, Pelagius, I will take the time to study the articles there.

BTW, why do you seem to be so bitter already ? Wait to have participated to a thread discussing Enteprise, US international politics, or CODA and D20, and you'll have reasons to be bitter ;) :p (though to be fair, we very seldom come up with insults) !!

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Regarding this it might be interesting to start a thread to discuss the connection of B&B's mistreatement of Star Trek Cannon and the large Coda and D20 conspiracy which actually is the drive behind US politics ( i gues they simply want to spread the D20 system all over the world ;) ) as Mr. bush is in secret a passionate D20 GM. ;)

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Originally posted by Evan van Eyk
as Mr. bush is in secret a passionate D20 GM. ;)

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Nah. Everyone knows that Al Gore was the gamer candidate in 2002... ;)

"I'm an 11th Level Vice President!" - Al Gore, "Anthology of Interest I" (Futurama)

Posted by Raconteur X:

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You too are incorrect, Khrys. The Hebrews... from the Sumerian habiru meaning "wanderer" (i.e., a nomadic people)... are not themselves native to the land they claim. It is the land God promised them for upholding their end of the Covenant, not their ancestral home. Abraham, widely held as the father of the Hebrew people, was from the city of Ur in Mesopotamia, not the region currently claimed by the nation of Israel. From a strict historical perspective, Israel should be tussling with Saddam Hussein over the Fertile Crescent.

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My mistake on saying that it is their historical homeland. To my knowledge the Jewish Torah states that Israel is "their" land, given to them by God. Arabs only came there afterwards. So like I said if you consider historical land claims as the most important reason for giving the land to any group, then the Israelis were there first.

Posted by Marty4286:

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But I WILL add my 2 cents on one part: Ariel Sharon and Yassir Arafat are relics of a bygone era, their continued leadership is reason enough why peace won't come to the area for years to come.

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Absolutely true.

BTW, Bedouins are NOT palestinians. A Bedouin would feel insulted by such a statement. Just like the Hashemites despise the Sa'ad. And even the Palestinian group is considered fairly new, sephardic Jews were Palestinians in the Ottoman empire. But Arabs in general share the same language, script and ethnic background.

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Originally posted by Lt.Khrys Antos
Posted by Raconteur X:
BTW, Bedouins are NOT palestinians. A Bedouin would feel insulted by such a statement. Just like the Hashemites despise the Sa'ad. And even the Palestinian group is considered fairly new, sephardic Jews were Palestinians in the Ottoman empire. But Arabs in general share the same language, script and ethnic background.

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I hope that wasn't directed at me, I didn't say anything of the sort :p.