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If Jesus allowed Himself to be assimilated, it could very well be His Father's plan to help save the Borg.
Hmm. I wonder if this could make such a good Star Trek story, using an alien religious figure.
* pauses *
Okay, I confessed. Sisko was the first thing to pop into my mind.
Speaking of Alien Religious Figures.
I seem to remember reading somewhere a note on religion in star trek, and how it seemed most alien races only seem to have one major religion? (if they seem to have one at all) and even human religions seem not to get mentioned much.
Anyone got any (preferably, but not limited to) canon trek religions we could consider for the Borg Assimilation of the Alpha Quadrant Theologies.
Sundowner
Actually, that would make a really interesting story. :) It may not work well for a game setting, but if you're wanting to write the script for Trek XI, it may be a decent place to start (and you don't have to worry about trying to bring in the entire E-E crew, as Ben will be the main protagonist/antagonist). I'd certainly pay money to watch that.Quote:
Originally posted by REG
Okay, I confessed. Sisko was the first thing to pop into my mind.
Now, back to the original story. I, of course, believe that the Biblical Jesus is the historical Jesus. That's the cornerstone of my faith. :) He would certainly be immune to any attempts at assimilation, and, as Owen pointed out, would almost certainly restore the free the drone of the collective.
I recall the passage of the woman being healed when touching Jesus' robe, and believe he actually knew the healing took place. My uncle once explained the passage to me that he felt God's healing energy pass through him to the woman, and that's how he immediately realized that the act had occured.
Still, Owen's description of it as a "passive" power is quite accurate.
If we switch the question to a powerful mortal, such as Gary Mitchell or his companion (I can't remember her name off-hand), would they be able to resist the nano-probes with their powerful psi abilities?
Or, what would happen to the essence of Redjac if the creature it was possessing was assimilated?
Bajor had the Church of the Prophets, or something like that. I'm not sure if the Klingons still worship their old gods, or if they now worship Kahless as a god-like myth. Vulcans have their pseudo-religious discipline of logic and Kolinahr.Quote:
Originally posted by Sundowner
Anyone got any (preferably, but not limited to) canon trek religions we could consider for the Borg Assimilation of the Alpha Quadrant Theologies.
The planet from Bread and Circuses uses a parallel of Christianity. I think Gene was uncomfortable with religion in general, and thus tried to avoid it in Trek.
Aaaarrrgggh!!
This is starting to get good, but i've got to sleep, got to work later this morning (half past one, ugh!)
I'll be back later today, this definitley sound like somthing i'm going to need to adapt for the game i'm narrating :D
Night All
Sundowner
PS. Don't loose this thread
Actually, the Klingons claim to have killed their gods where they outlived their usefulness... :)Quote:
Originally posted by Sea Tyger
I'm not sure if the Klingons still worship their old gods, or if they now worship Kahless as a god-like myth.
I dunno Reg. Deities & Demigods states that gods are immune to disease (which nanobot infection really is), and Jesus, as portrayed in the stories is either a proxy or avatar for JHWH....Quote:
Originally posted by REG
If Jesus allowed Himself to be assimilated, it could very well be His Father's plan to help save the Borg.
Roddenberry was an atheist. But I think the reason that religion wasn't a centerpiece of stories is the same reason it often isn't, today: it's very hard to tell stories about real religions that won't offend someone. Given that a goal of commerical television is to draw in viewers, not drive them away, producers are sensitive to this.
In the case of Bajor, they had real, tangible proof that the prophets were real (prophecies routinely came to pass, they had the Orbs, one could go into the Celestial Temple and speak with them sometimes). With all that solid proof handy, it's not hard to understand why competing religions would fall by the wayside.
Assimilation requires nanoprobe infection in at least the early stages. Any creature that had no body (like Thasians, Organians, Q, etc.) would be immune.
Any creature powerful enough to perceive what was happening and eliminate the probes would be able to cure itself. I suspect Gary Mitchell and Elizabeth Dehner, the took individuals changed by their trip to the barrier, would fall into this category (unless they were infected early in their transformation). Possibly not Charlie X; it's unclear whether he understood how his abilities worked, or whether he just channeled power from Thasians with his will.
Any creature with an immune system capable of fighting off the nanoprobes would recover in the same way anyone recovers from an illness.
Certainly Jesus as the Son of God would not be bothered in the slightest, unless it was God's plan (it's unclear, at least to me, whether he was his own man, or simply an extension of his Father's will). Additionally, I'd say he could cure anyone he wished to, but probably not more than one at a time -- I seem to recall that his miracles weren't that ostentatious -- no Q-like snap the fingers and reality changes, but more one-on-one experiences.
Heheheh. Aside from that game product, some say that gods are supposed to be immune to wounds and injuries inflicted upon them. I'm guessing from the flogging, his injuries didn't heal fast enough.Quote:
Originally posted by Robbert Raets
I dunno Reg. Deities & Demigods states that gods are immune to disease (which nanobot infection really is), and Jesus, as portrayed in the stories is either a proxy or avatar for JHWH....
Anyhoo, my previous statement means to say that if it is in God's Will to save the Borg, He will give up His Only Son.
It will be interesting how Earth-based religions will evolve in a future when mankind have the capacity to explore and colonize beyond our own solar system. It would also be interesting how our many religions will deal with alien species and their cultures.
Of course, such a scholastic discussion may be controversial and one of passion. After all, one cannot discuss religion dispassionately.
"Of course, such a scholastic discussion may be controversial and one of passion. After all, one cannot discuss religion dispassionately."
Unless, of course, if one is an atheist, or my case, agnostic. Personally, as religion is not a big part of my life, I can discuss the subject rationally and dispassionately in much the same way that I can discuss moral philosophy. (EG: Poorly, due to my lack of schooling on the subject, but calmly)
:-)
Cheers
Tas
I guess atheists and agnostics can discuss this among themselves but I doubt it can be with others.
Yeah, but, to a degree, so did Nietszche (I can never spell that man's name right...). Maybe, like, Nietszche, the Klingons meant it as metaphor. The old definitions of truth and morality no longer are valued by man. What, in classical society formed the basis of a very strict hierarchy of divinity no longer can be relied upon to provide us with a common definition of good, evil, truth, justice, love...what-have-you. Maybe Nietszche was a little...extreme, but we see examples of this everyday. Just today, i was watching CNN. They had a story about some village that recreates the trials of Christ, right down to actually driving nails through the hands and feet of the local "jesus." They beat him with pieces of wood studded with hunks of glass. He bleeds profusely, and carries his own cross. I think they stop just short of either stabbing him with a spear or actually letting the man die on the cross. My reaction is that this is nutty, crazy, lunacy. But of course, it was reported without any commentary, no social or moral bias. In other words, "to each their own."Quote:
Originally posted by Doug Burke
Actually, the Klingons claim to have killed their gods where they outlived their usefulness... :)
Another example.
I recently found out that a person I know enjoys heavy S+M with her husband. While I was staggering from the effects of TMI syndrome my initial response was one of horror and disbelief. Which then turned to anger. I'd explain my anger, but I've probably already exceeded my alloted TMI rations for the month. If I saw a guy beating a woman, I'd do my best to stop him. I think it's frigging wrong. And I think allowing oneself to be beaten for the sake of enjoyment is indicative of mental instability. I feel safe making that judgement in my own home and for my own behavior. But then we have "consenting adults"... Can we say it's wrong? or right?
Female genital mutilation: wrong or right? or is it just how that culture functions?
While we cannot truthfully say "God is dead" (we cannot definitively say anything regarding the matter since God 's existence is a matter of faith not science or logic), we can say that the standards of the past, the morality of an older time has, in fact died. Whatever we say about right and wrong today is almost entirely subjective. And maybe that's what the Klingon's really meant when they said they had killed their gods.
Heh.
As for jesus being assimilated by the Borg...well, I can respect that the topic has inspired more...productive debate and discussion, but it seems rather a silly thing to posit. As REG and Tas have said and countered respectively, "religion cannot be discussed dispassionately." Perhaps REG was actually referring to faith as opposed to religion. Perhaps to Tas, religion is very little more than a system of organized belief, which can be discussed objectively, whereas faith is entirely subjective.
Sure, there are a lot of people who believe that faith is far from subjective...mostly these are guys who tend to strap bombs to their bodies, or who, in the past, have started Crusades (with a captial "C"). I've had discussions with less violent, but equally fanatic members of the faithful, and I have my own faith, which I will not dictate or submit for discussion.
But it's simple. If you come at the question from a viewpoint determined by Faith, then there is nothing Jesus cannot do, being divine. If you come at it from an objective point of view, then Jesus, historically was just a man. And men get assimilated. The answer lies with the individual. No truth can be definitively stated.
Strictly Speaking
Jesus is described as being the son of God (Allah, Yahwe, or however you prefer to acknowledge the Creator... different names, same thing) or the confining the infinite into the finite (as man is quite finite, though some could say with ever expanding boundaries... but that is a discussion for a different day), but the main point is that Jesus was a man period. Being a man, a human, means that your existance on Earth (this plane of existance, or however you define that) will not last forever and is subject to early termination from outside influences such as excessive damage to the living body; Jesus knew this, regardless of being the son of God or son of man, and accepted it. But as portrayed in the Christian Gospels, he was told what his purpose was by God: that he was to give up his life as a symbol to the rest of us mortals. He didn't necessarily know how it was going to happen, just to accept it and let it happen. Now if God decides that he were to die by assimilation, then he would let it be so. The power of God was channelled through Jesus, I don't believe he innately had any supernatural or superhuman abilities, albeit his compassion, and so being assimilated wouldn't confer any of this power to the Borg Collective. The Borg assimilate physical bodies; as Jesus was a human and mortal, it would/could be assimilated. The Borg assimilate the physical, "mechanical" memories and knowledge stored in the brains/nerve centers of their victims, not the spirit or essence of a person; that is still retained as can be attributed to those who were unassimilated. I don't think they regained their humanity, they always had it, but it was detached from them by losing their individuality (which IMO is the basis of humanity).
Now after all this rambling, my conclusion is if Jesus were assimilated:
1) He would let it happen if he believed it was his preordained destiny
2) His body, mind, and memories would be assimilated, but his eternal spirit (the "God" portion) would depart either by being detached along with his humanity or leave the mortal body as if it had perished
3) The Borg wouldn't be any more potent than they were, but as was mentioned before, they may have a radically altered sense of being and purpose and may be considered as a counterpart by the Borg Queen as was Data and Picard (who's personality IMO was a strong enough influence on the Borg, perhaps via the Queen, to alter it).
Other things to point out is that there were other instances of men channelling the power of God in acts of miracles such as Moses and that it is said that man is made in the image of God and would therefore conceptually be a part of God and God a part of man (thus the ability to channel the power of God).
Although I hazard to guess God's strategy if He allowed His Son to be assimilated by the Borg...
Granted, His physical body will have been reconstructed to fit the Borg "dress code." His memory would be collected and stored in the unimatrix archive. But I wonder if His essence would travel along the neural network to connect with the drones and help them save themselves if not save their essence or souls.
I know I'm rambling so bear with me. I have often wondered how did the Unimatrix Zero exist? I mean for the borg drones it is like a virtual paradise to escape from their programmed mechanical routine when they are in regeneration mode. To get in touch with their organic sides, even though such a place is considered vulgar and profane to the Collective (and through their avatar Borg Queen).
Wow, think about the church recruitment...resistance is futile
(Thia), ya know my wife, has this to say:
Think of the new Mormon commercials (I really don't mean to offend- some of my best friend's are mormon)
"You will call the number on the screen. You will receive this free bible. Members will come speak to you. You will join our circle of friends. Resistance is futile."