Klingons & Romulans

There's probably one very simple reason actually.. the Hurq' ships probably outclassed most other vessels in the region in that era, with the exception of the Vulcans, whom they couldn't, or avoided, defeating (the Vulcans being a tough nut to crack, given their huge battle cruisers, and relatively small range of operations, meaning it was not hard to call on a HUGE fleet!) Klingon ships appeared to be among the most powerful warships of that era, though of course being outnumbered 5-1 wouldn't help :D

your vision sounds pretty much what I imagined actually. The Klingons' semi feudal society points to technology being thrust on them, and where they did advance was primarily in weaoonry, hence they more or less managed to keep pace with the Federation at the expense of pretty much every other advancement :D

The Klingons aren't stupid, just more interested in practical application than research and development. They learned how the Hur'q stuff worked, used it while educating themselves using Hur'q computers, and then - once they had enough of an understanding - they abandoned the aging Hur'q ships and built their own.

I never said they didn't use the technology that the invaders left behind. Indeed, quite the opposite. It took them a long time since they were essentially of a medieval mindset and were suddenly exposed to technology that might as well have been magic. They learned how to use the Hur'q machines, and then did so until they could produce their own.

I wish that the stuff the LUG guys wrote about the Klingons was all available to us. I'd love to have a look at the information about Klingon culture, then make whatever small adjustments were needed to keep it all in compliance with what we saw on Enterprise. I know from the previews alone that I would have shelled out nearly any amount of $$$ to get that text into my collection.

The Klingons of MY universe are pretty much the same as they appear in the standard Star Trek setting. Though my historical background is certainly not canon, it does make the Klingons more interesting to my players. It also provides a nice backdrop for a time travel story.

I think that both the Klingons and the Romulans are good as adversaries in an Enterprise-era Series, but for completely different reasons and in completely different ways. The Romulans are a sneaky, stealthy foe with a massive empire and plenty of resources at their disposal. The Klingons are a direct and brutal for with a sizeable empire and really powerful ships. The Romulans are centrally controlled, but the Klingons are quasi-feudal in nature; only when a catastrophic situation arises do the Klingons work together. Otherwise they are as likely to attack each other as they are other vessels they encounter.

I'd like to flesh out the Malurians as an adversary race. The Klingons and Romulans get plenty of screen time in the 23rd and 24th centuries, but - while Starfleet is relatively small and green - using lesser regional powers can be particularly entertaining. Having the Orions, themselves ancient beyond the reckoning of even the Vulcans, flitting around causing problems is also good for a few encounters.

I want to use some of the races we saw on Enterprise specifically for this reason. The Klingons and Romulans are fleshed out, but the Suliban are not. Neither are the aliens from "Silent Enemy" or the aliens who persecuted them (the guys led by Dean Stockwell). These races (and several others) can be brought back and explored further.

Klingons and Romulans will be there. I'm thinking of a new direction.

More later.

mactavish out.

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Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King

Why wouldn't they simply use the Hur'Q ships that they had? Fly around, find some Orions, take their ships (and possibly nomenclature) and keep going?

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Originally Posted by Captain Otto

Im not so sure about that: everyone can drive a car but many are dumbfounded if it starts to make problems. If the Klingons fly around in Old Hur'Q or Orion ships without fully understanding the Principles behind how it functions its a sure shot recipe for disaster. Ships need constant maintenance so i think only after a few years those Hur'Q and Orion Ships will break down. This probably hampers the Klingons and their advance at building an empire.

They finally understood enough about the principles of warp ships to build their own and then resume their further ascent to an star spanning empire.

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I'm going to partially agree with both of you on this one, if you compare the D-7 to any other Klingon design there is a philosophy design difference. The D-7 is the only (non-FASA) design to incorporate the tall bridge module, the large command section in conjunction with the slender neck section or the more open to the surrounding area general layout. All other designs are similar with the boom concept but the 'neck' is much more robust - to me that translates into a less structurally sound material. Also the designs are more compact when compared to the D-7, with only weapons protruding past an undefined point. However the technology would be the problem as Otto pointed out. The D-series may have originally been a H'urk design, mainly the superstructure. Starting with the D-1 (a purely H'urk built craft) the Klingons reverse-engineered the technology over a period of time to end up with the D-7 and their own technology but still keeping the frame, as it was found being superior to any thing the Klingons could produce. Over time the number of replacement D-series frames dwindled forcing the Klingons to produce their own new designs. Due to the fact that they were familiar with the layout of the D-series and the Klingon philosophy of leading from the front the design linage remained similar, giving rise to the distinguishing Command Boom Section and the Engineering Secondary Hull of the Klingon fleet.
The K'T'Ingas ,if you notice, actually do have more structural re-enforcements along the neck section. Again to me, that equals the point in Klingon technology was capable of producing their own D-series frames.

the idea that the Klingon designs could be in part based on Hurq' technology could explain why they kept the same basic planform, and in a way why the Romulans chose to abandon their designs for the Klingon designs (other than the obvious) - because it had certain practicalities and might aid their warp mechanics - it was based on the much more sophisticated technologies of the Hurq'.

It is Retcon, but I do like to think that designs are that way for a reason. human warp drive works in the way which means having a Starfleet shaped ship is the best shape, and likewise with other alien warp mechanics, hence their lineages have a design history.

Of course, all this is assuming the Hur'Q were an advanced species when they invaded the Klingon Homeworld.

How advanced do you need to be to invade a pre-industrial world?

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Originally Posted by Phoenix

How advanced do you need to be to invade a pre-industrial world?

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The more salient question may be: "How advanced do you need to be to invade a pre-industrial world and then move one of its great cultural treasures from the Beta Quadrant to the Gamma Quadrant?"

I suppose the Sword of Kahless could have ended up there much later, but it's just as likely that the Hur'q had either much better FTL than either the Federation or the Klingons have in the 24th C. or a truly appallingly long lifespan.

Yes, but then that raises other questions: Namely, why would the Hurq' travel halfway across the galaxy, to fight with a bunch of medieval aliens, to steal a cultural relic, if it wasn't reasonably easy for them to do? Sure as a 'trophy of war' it's reasonable enough for them to have taken it, but WHY would they go all that way, maybe spending centuries in cryosleep, to go to a planet on the opposite side of the galaxy?! One possible reason could simply be that a reasonable method of transport opened up to them that wasn't there before? A wierd wormhole (maybe related to the one that got the Romulans to where they are now?) access to a Vaduaar underspace conduit or some other thing. If it had just been the Bajoran Wormhole, why didn't they do the same to the Bajorans (and it's likelly the Bajorans would have detected them, as they were apparently solar sailing as early as the 18th century, and have a culture 10,000 years old) or any of the other local cultures, such as the Andorians, who would also have provided an equal 'challenge' if their only motivation was trophy gathering? Such a method does of course then explain why the Klingons didn't get transwarp era technology along with the Hurq' technology database :)

Well, since the term hur'q is not the actual name of the race that invaded Qo'nos, maybe it was the Vaadwaur. I hadn't thought of that, but it actually makes a lot of sense.

Think about it: the Vaadwaur traveled the galaxy using their subspace corridor network. They were known to be conquerors, they possessed advanced technologies (presumably including warp technologies), and they generally ventured fairly far afield. They certainly possesed advanced weaponry, ion drives, and other stuff that would be considered advanced by a medieval-level society.

So, why Qo'nos? Perhaps their network of subspace tunnels had an exit point in the area. Why not go from there to Bajor? Andoria? Tellar? Maybe there weren't corridors nearby. Maybe - though they lkely possessed warp technology - their FTL speed was only in the warp 1-1.5 range. Perhaps they could travel faster than light, but not a LOT faster.

So, once the Klingons drive the invaders out, they have a sizeable number of technological implements laying around. The aliens [Vaadwaur] settled on the surface. They built advanced structures and brought (or produced) the various items that made their culture a technologically- and scientifically-advanced one. All of those things were left on Qo'nos, giving the Klingons access to everything, including many of the alien vessels.

So, over the next several centuries, the Klingons fly around in the warp-capable ships. They explore, colonize, and gradually decipher the invaders' computers. Using that knowledge, they became educated (after a fashion) and used their knowledge to improve on the aliens' designs. Perhaps the Klingons had a genius or two whose quantum leaps of intellect not only decoded the aliens' knowledge, but actually improved on it. On top of that, they would have had a couple of centuries (at least) or more to make modifications and improvements to the technology once they became capable of producing it on their own.

In the end, who the Hur'q were really doesn't matter, though having them be the Vaadwaur would be both convenient and cool. In fact, I think that the Vaadwaur WILL be my Hur'q. It integrates the Delta Quadrant (one of favorite Trek elements) with an Enterprise-era setting (another of my favorite Trek elements), so I like the idea a lot.

Oh, and as for the sword of Kahless? The subspace corridors can certainly explains its location as well.

Anyway, I am getting tired. I'll write more later.

mactavish out.

The span of time between the Hur'Q invasion and the rediscovery of the Sword is a thousand years. A thousand years. That's a lot of time for all sorts of crazy stuff to happen.

If it were the Vaduaar, it could also solve a number of other issues: Namelly, why, if these corridors exist, why were there none round our neck of the woods, when given the ranges they covered, there could easily be some: The Vaduaar also had the technology to collapse the under-space corridors, so it may be that the Klingons also possess such technology, but they never had the ability to use it, because there are no functional conduits for thousands of light-years!

It also opens some other interesting story threads... What if the Vaduaar weren't the only species with access to that technology: Perhaps the Orions used them for their vast trading empire, which in a way makes some sense too, since they are also incredibly old, yet had only basic warp drive and weaponry (who needs good weaponry and drives, when in an instant you can jump out of space-time and emerge a few hundred light-years away shortly after!), relatively speaking, which meant that at the same time their whole society imploded at around the same time! And of course, with the Vaduaar up and about, who knows, they may know of ways of re-opening the conduits, or just fly from a few thousand light-years away, with a grudge against the Klingons haha :)

But yes, it would be a cool shock for any time travel episode, to run into the vaduaar, and depending on when you set it, they may have no clue what they are facing!

The Xindi had subspace corridors.

Well, the Vaadwaur fell from their lofty perch between 800 and 1,000 years before Voyager encountered them (I think it was 900 years, but we can play with that a bit).

Say the Turei Alliance saturation bombed the Vaadwaur homeworld roughly 700 years prior to the launch of NX-01 Enterprise. While they didn't say so in Voyager, I'm going to assume that they also targeted the Vaadwaur colonies and client worlds that they were able to locate. I'm also operating under the assumption that the Turei were unlikely to locate all (or even most) of their Vaadwaur holdings, so I'd guess many survived for at least a while after the destruction of their homeworld.

Why weren't the Vaadwaur in "our neck of the woods"? Maybe they were, but we're talking the 14th-15th century. Maybe they found the Sol system. Maybe they even visited. I'm going to have events unfold this way:

1. A fleet of Vaadwaur vessels exited a subspace corridor in the region near Qo'nos. Fearful of the Turei and attempting to recover from the thrashing they'd received, the Vaadwaur convoy - consisting of transports, cargo freighters, and combat vessels - determined the immediate need to establish a new base of operations.

2. After scanning the region, Qo'nos was discovered. It had the necessary resources and was M-class, so the Vaadwaur moved closer to see what else the planet had to offer. The discovery of, say, 500 million Klingons was of little concern. In spite of their numbers, the natives hadn't even reached the Steam Age; superior Vaadwaur technology had historically proven equal to the task of subjugating a low-tech race and their arrogance prevented them from even considering the alternative.

3. In multiple waves, the Vaadwaur fighters strafed the larger population centers. Their few capitol ships bombed the surface from orbit, unleashing both explosives and chemical weapons. After only a few days, many of the more powerful Houses capitulated and the Vaadwaur landed many of their ships.

4. Over the next few years, the invaders - called the Hur'q by the natives - struggled to consolidate their power. The Klingons, however, proved less than desirable as subjugates. The constant attacks against both Vaadwaur personnel and property were bad enough, but they clearly had troubling following even the simplest directions... even those that weren't constantly rebelling (and there weren't many of those to begin with).

5. The attacks continued to grow until one day, just shy of a decade after their initial conquest, the Great Houses formed an alliance and unleashed the most vicious attack ever seen on Qo'nos. They killed the Vaadwaur by the thousands until the decision was made to abandon their colony and flee the planet.

6. The remaining Vaadwaur took all that they could, both in terms of native cultural artifacts (including the sword of Kahless), natural resources and finished goods (including technology), but their numbers were greatly reduced and their infrastructure was in shambles. They left the planet and - in formation with the larger ships still in orbit - entered a subspace corridor and fled the region forever.

7. Many Vaadwaur insisted that they shouldn't abandon the sector so precipitously, but - given their weakened state and their stinging defeat by pre-warp humanoids - the final decision was to travel to another quadrant and attempt to start over. They eventually found their way to the Gamma Quadrant.

8. The remaining Vaadwaur vessels exited their subspace network in the central region of the quadrant. Upon returning to normal space, they very quickly discovered a serious problem. A battlegroup of Jem'Hadar ships detected their presence and engaged them. In a battle that lasted less that five minutes, the Vaadwaur were completely obliterated, the debris from their ships scattered over thousands of kilometers. If any ships escaped, their final fate remains unknown.

The Klingon side of this tale has already been told in some of my previous posts.

This works very well in my Enterprise-era Series, so I think I'll use it. In fact, I think I'll put this all down in my notes and expand on it later.

mactavish out.

That sounds pretty cool, with one observation.. The Sword of Khales was found within ruins on a city, and it was identified as being Hurq' - so perhaps this location was one of their refuges from the network at large (an extremelly difficult to find conduit) However their presence attracted the growing Dominion. The Dominion I suspect, wouldn't have attacked imediatelly, but would have been curious about them, perhaps even trading with them, and inviting them to join the Dominion.. they refused, and the rest is history :)

Tobian: Yeah, that works, too. ;)

I suppose that some of the Vaadwaur may very well have made their way to an out-of-the-way planet in Dominion space. Assuming they were either a.) able to defend themselves against the Dominion long enough to build a new colony, or b.) forced to join the Dominion and then perhaps destroyed later when they rebelled or refused to surrender information about the subspace corridors, then perhaps finding the sword on the planet would make more sense.

On the other hand, perhaps the world where the sword was found was assumed to be a Hur'q planet, or perhaps it was recovered from space by another Vaadwaur ship/convoy that located and attempted to rendezvous with the fleet driven from Qo'nos, or perhaps the planet on which the sword was found was a Vaadwaur-subjugated planet and the natives (like the Klingons) drove them out; that last possibility would certainly explain the technological similarities between the two races.

The Vaadwaur are such a great mystery race, and I really think that they can be easily presented as the Hur'q. Moreover, have them come back in a TNG/DS9/Voyager-era setting - having conquered some new worlds, acquired new technologies, and updated their armada - and use their subspace corridors to gain access to the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. A Klingon-Hur'q War would be really groovy, particularly in the wake of the Dominion War.

Think about it... the race responsible for the Klingons presence as a quadrant-level power, responsible for them achieving warp technology (which they may or may not have done on their own), returns to get some payback. The Klingons - looking to settle a 1,000-year-old score - are all too willing to take part. In their weakened condition, they may well be challenged by the Vaadwaur, particularly if they managed to secure stuff like chroniton torpedoes or isokinetic cannons.

Given the state of the region in the post-Dominion War era, lesser powers like the Breen and the Son'a might be looking for someone to follow, and the Vaadwaur would likely be willing to take them on as junior partners. The boost in ships and manpower would make things even deadlier.

I'll be posting more later.

mactavish out.