Officers vs. Enlisted?????

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Originally posted by Drifter:


The admirals of Star Trek confuse me a touch. In times of war, I think there should also be a fleet admiral. As well, I think there should be varying degrees of admiral at any other time. So, here is my proposed version of admirals in Starfleet:

Rear Admiral
Vice Admiral
Admiral
Fleet Admiral

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Has there been a Five Pip Boxed Admiral in Canon? I don't think I've seen one. But has there been an Admiral Refered to as Fleet Admiral? In my recollection, I don't think so. However, if there is, then I am mistaken and hereby retrack my previous statement; but until then I shall go on with my statement. Therefore I go by a more modern rank systems (which have been around for the last 175 years or so):[*] Rear Admiral (Lower Half)/Commodore
[**] Rear Admiral (Upper Half)
[***] Vice Admiral
[****] Admiral

But what happened to that Admiral rank that they were messing around with in the early TNG? You know, the one that tappered of with like 9 pips, each one getting smaller as the triangle got smaller.

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Originally posted by Cessna:
Or they are graduates of an ROTC program, in which case they are given a commission in the Reserves, but serve on Active Duty. Their next goal (usually around the time they are a First Lieutenant) is to become “augmented,” in which case their Commission is converted from a Reserve Commission to a Regular Commission. If they fail to get “augmented,” they stay in the reserves but are eventually taken off of Active Duty.

Keep in mind that this is all based on the USMC’s way of doing things; I’m sure the other services have their own ways of handling these things.

And yes, I can see this all adapted to Star Trek RPGs. You could set up a character who was not been to Starfleet Academy, but who is trying to gain a regular commission through “augmentation.” I’m sure there would be plenty of politics involved in this process, even in an RPG. Alternately, you could have a character who is an officer but who is a “mustang.” (former enlisted) He’s very competent and very skilled, but isn’t in the “Old Boy’s Club” of Starfleet Academy graduates…

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In the US military all Warrant Officers are technically "commissioned" when they are promoted to WO2... it is for certain UCMJ reasons and other legalities.

A Warrant isn't a soldier who failed the "cut" for commissioned status, in the US, they are technical specialists. A commissioned officer has to move around too much for career progression... a warrant can stay in one place forever and get really good at that one thing.

Though they recieve leadership and tactical training they are not considered combat leaders... except in Aviation and Special Forces.

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"I'd rather die standing than live on my knees..."
Shania Twain

History of warrant officers: Originally, a 'warranted' officer was an non-commissioned officer in a position befitting an officer: paymaster and the like in the ground forces, or a position like 'master' for the naval vessels, in times when there was no officer to fill the slot.

This mutated into a position where the officer is not commissioned, but warranted; their position had to be approved by a flag-rank officer, but not any civilian agency (like the admiralty, or the dept. of navy, etc...) They filled a role as subject expert, without having any of the paperwork responsibility of a commissioned officer. they have no legal authority -- punishments, etc. ordered by a warrant must be apporved by a commissioned officer or someone in the NCO chain of command. Often, this was a position given to sergeants major and the like who were as far as they could go in the ranks, but who were -- for whatever reason -- considered unfit (read, not moneyed, titled, etc...) to be a full-fledged officer.

They now occupy a hazily-defined purpose in the US military; namely, they are the subject/technical experts. Many are pilots (usually helos), military intelligence analysts & interpreters, etc..etc... They are now given their warrant by the various departments of the navy, army, what have you. They rarely have any kind of legal authority (promotions, punishments, etc...) and like it taht way. They are -- in essence -- non-commissioned officers who have escaped the supervisory and paperwork hastles of the enlisted chain of command, but have not ben stuck with the responsibility/paperwork of a commissioned officer.

Simple language: the warrant officer is the guy who does his job and puts up with the least shit. the commissioned officer's job is to lead and catch all the crap coming down form the echelons above god. The NCOs have to make the work happen for theofficers to look good n their fitreps, and the enlisted get shafted if they can't find a place to be out of sight and mind...

To my knowledge we have never seen a 5 star admiral. (And I look hard for people's rank).

There has been a handful of 4 stars admirals around, lest then 6 maybe even 3-4. The most recent being Adm. 'Whatley'? from the DS9 ep where Bajor is about to sign for fed membership.

There has been a couple of Fleet Admirals, Shanthi (Redemption pt2) for instance. But I think she was only a 3 star admiral (or thats what the show put on her).

Commordores was a 1 star admiral and has been phased out (at least in name) from TNG.

Apparently in TNG the 3 star and occasionally the 2 star admirals did all the work.

But they were terrible with rank names. Vice Admiral Nechayev who had 2 stars a few times when she should of had 3. Nechayev is later promoted to fleet admiral and still wears 3 stars.

Plus in TOS there where Fleet Cpts who were different to Commordores (who seemed to do everything Admirals did)


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Please correct me I am wrong, but isn't Commodore more a "postion" rather then a rank? Like Sargent Major and Field Marshal. The "rank" of commodore is given to any senior officer in charge of a tsk force.

I always thought that the SF rank of Fleet Captain was analogous to that of Commodore, Garth was (as far as I remember) the only Fleet Captain listed in canon. After that they refered to them as Commodore.

If I am mistaken please correct me.

I was under the impression that, while in use during TOS times, the rank of "Commodore" had fallen from Starfleet use by TNG times.

While I agree that there should be some middle-ground betwen Captain and Admiral, Starfleet (AFAIK) has seen fit to remove that middle ground...

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A couple of comments to throw in times of stress to that person who's really annoying you...

"Oohhh. Did I just step on your itty-bitty ego?"
"How many times do I have to flush before you go away?"

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Originally posted by Paul:
I was under the impression that, while in use during TOS times, the rank of "Commodore" had fallen from Starfleet use by TNG times.

While I agree that there should be some middle-ground betwen Captain and Admiral, Starfleet (AFAIK) has seen fit to remove that middle ground...

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Why? There is no "middle ground" between Colonel and General (equivalant to Captain and Admiral).

"I always thought that the SF rank of Fleet Captain was analogous to that of Commodore, Garth was (as far as I remember) the only Fleet Captain listed in canon. After that they refered to them as Commodore.

If I am mistaken please correct me."

You are mistaken. Pike was a Fleet Captain as well, in Menagerie. Commodore Mendez appears in the same episode, so the two ranks were in use at the same time. While the exact nature of the Fleet Captain rank was never made explicit, my best guess is that it's a Captain placed in command over other starship Captains - in effect, a brevet Commodore.

While it's been stated off screen that the Starfleet rank of Commodore has succumbed to the US Navy's silly two-tier Rear Admiral system, a piece if inanity perpetrated by no other Navy I know of, it's never been confirmed on screen - no one-pip Flag officer has appeared in the TNG/DS9/Voyager era - so I'm perfectly in line with canon in keeping Commodores in my campaign.

Works for me...thanks, Owen. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif

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A couple of comments to throw in times of stress to that person who's really annoying you...

"Oohhh. Did I just step on your itty-bitty ego?"
"How many times do I have to flush before you go away?"

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Originally posted by Owen E Oulton:
[i
the US Navy's silly two-tier Rear Admiral system.

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What do you mean, "two-tier Rear Admiral system?

I thought warrent officers were used more to fill positions where an officer (ie someone above the enlisted ranks) is thought to be required but it's not a duty for "real" officers.

My impression was that this is how it works for some Army pilots and comms types. (Others are officers however so forgive my confusion).

I know the difference between a commission and a warrent, I'm just sure when/how it applies.

Owen means that the US Navy has decided to make one-star and two-star admirals as rear admiral as followed:

Rear Admiral (lower half) - admiral with one star
Rear Admiral (upper half) - admiral with two stars

I don't know if they would say that fully during a formal introduction [e.g., "I present you the new Commander of the Pacific Fleet, Rear Admiral (lower half) Russell Chan"] but it sounds ridiculous to be referred this way. No offense intended, US Navy.

I still adhere to the Royal Navy ranking standard and allow one-star admiral the title of Commodore while the two-star admiral the simple title of Rear Admiral.

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Anyhoo, just some random thoughts...

[This message has been edited by REG (edited 05-16-2001).]

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Originally posted by REG:

I still adhere to the Royal Navy ranking standard and allow one-star admiral the title of Commodore while the two-star admiral the simple title of Rear Admiral.

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Off hand, I adhere to this policy, for hearing Rear Admiral for both ranks is a tad bit confusing. However, in game I reger to both as Rear Admiral due to historical references, believing that the US had more surviving unit after WWIII.

Furthermore, it's far easier in Notorization.

One small note on enlisted ranks, at least according to the US Army, Sergeant Major is a rank. It is pay grade E-9, however there are three positions associated with it, Sergeant Major (a staff position primarily), Command Sergeant Major (senior[highest ranking] enlisted person in a battalion or larger command), and Sergeant Major of the Army (as above, but for the entire service). In conversation the proper way to address one is "Sergeant Major" as opposed to "Sergeant" for most of the rest of the NCOs.

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Originally posted by REG:


No offense intended, US Navy.

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None taken. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif