Urban Warfare in the Trek

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tricky

I've been thinking about unique sniper/stealth kill weapons. Ripping off the "smart bullets" from the movie Runaway, one could imagine a "micro-missle": a bullet/missle the size of one of those 50 caliber rifle shells, but able to track a target and follow them. Actually, I've heard some kind of smart bullet was in early RD in the real world, so when you add the Trek Tech to it (sensors, better propulsion, maybe a tiny little antimatter warhead?), you get a really nasty weapon. Heck, they could even get worse, if you make them little sensor probes, like the ones that hunted the Bak'u in Insurrection: give them some a little AI, cloaking, holographic or blending tech, a nice antimatter charge and a list of targets, and you get tiny little suicide bombers, all quietly floating around the warzone, looking for targets to get next to and blow up!

But I'm just snowballin here...;)

---

That was sort of what I was alluding to with the idea of 1 inch photorps. Bascially they could make a mico self guided bullet with a warheard. A 1/100th scale photorp with about 1/80,00th the payload of a photrop could still have a yield in over half a kiloton, or about 1.5x10^15 Joules :eek:

THat's probably massive overkill and beyond the Strafleet's tech limits, but aGM could get some decent damage if he wanted. Certain a bit better than current CODA projectile ratings.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tonyg

That was sort of what I was alluding to with the idea of 1 inch photorps. Bascially they could make a mico self guided bullet with a warheard. A 1/100th scale photorp with about 1/80,00th the payload of a photrop could still have a yield in over half a kiloton, or about 1.5x10^15 Joules :eek:

THat's probably massive overkill and beyond the Strafleet's tech limits, but aGM could get some decent damage if he wanted. Certain a bit better than current CODA projectile ratings.

---

Thing is this is ALREADY there and canon.

The Siege of AR-558. the Jem'Hadar left anti-personnel mines in sub-space, allowing them to travel around the battlefield, anywhere in the battlefield. No cover, no protection, just random dumb-luck as to whether you are in the area when one appears and explodes.

Theres your demoraliser.

I would imagine that there was an element of control, and as seen in the episode the Federation found a way to un-cloak them from sub-space and alter their programming to use them on the Dominion Forces.

Theres the loss of the highly valued Starfleet rules of Warfare.

So go ahead, a subspace generator drops the bullet into subspace for the accuracy modifer the anti-matter wahead blows large wounds in the target, and a REALLY good sniper could time the re-entry from subspace (which would probably be linked to a range-finder) to occur within the target.

Who needs a transporter/scanner slug gun that can easily be messed up by sensors and jammers...

Ouch. :eek:
I'd forgotten about those. They even got Will Robinson. :(

BTW, this gives me an idea. Imagine is the Dominion had built some sort of robots to deploy those things. Maybe with a little internal factory. And say a couple were left behind on some planets during the war. And that no all of them have been told that the war is over and been instructed to stand down....

Well subspace weapons would probably not be allowed to be used by the Federation: As we've seen from Insurection there's a damn good reason why they don't mess with stuff like that! Of course the Dominion is under no such treaty.

They could just forget that little restriction, but then so could all of their enemies they have an agreement with! "Hooray, we have defeated the dominion with isolytic torpedoes... oops the Romulans just blew up earth with a load of them, the turncoats, damn!" :)

It has to be said though that even clever dickie devices like bullet-transporting-rifles and even subspace embedded mines, could be blocked by shielding, the latter probably with some modification, but they could, since shields are... subspace too :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tobian

It has to be said though that even clever dickie devices like bullet-transporting-rifles and even subspace embedded mines, could be blocked by shielding, the latter probably with some modification, but they could, since shields are... subspace too :)

---

Just as long as its the players saving the day in an RPG sense...

Well thematically, the players assassinating people with subspace mines, or shooting them with interphasic bullets, is not exactly Trek, and likewise, it would suck to be the target of it haha :)

But it would make sence for the villian to be non-trek, to act in ways, that are "non-enlightened" federation . . . much like the use of non-uniformed combatants blowing themselves up in suicide missions targetting civilians and protected areas (such as hospitals) . . . and having the heroes, the PCs, have to work within their own moral code, to stop those who don't beleive in their sence of right and wrong, and legal and proper warfare. And set it up in the way that it is a moral test . . . like in the gritty nature of "In the Pale moonlight" . . . where one may have to work with someone who is just as gritty . . . to achieve a greater good.

But back to Urban Warfare . . . the problems of present day urban warfare remain the same. Multiple well defensivible positions, multiple altitudes and angles of fire, uncountable number of non-combatants caught in the crossfire, ever shifting urban alliances between social groups, etc. . . . even with the superior training and education that Starfleet officers have . . . they would still have a difficult time conducting COIN operations.

I am sorry for going off subject there.

Back to the subject at hand . . . even with superior weaponry or superior sensors . . . how would that save the PCs from having to move along with the present situation. For instance, stick half a squad (4-5 persons) in a time dialation, which sends them back into WWI, in the trenches of the Western Front . . . unless the convince those around them that they are allies, they could be shot, if they attempt to hide within the military units around them . . . they will have to go over the top if the unit is called to take the offensive. Even with Phasers they are still line of sight weapons.

And even that is slightly off topic.

I have to get back into the sniper issue.
This makes me think of Angel One. Even with all the technology that the Galaxy Class Explorer had at its disposal, none of it was useful, until they knew what to look for. Furthermore, with all the firepower that it could baredown on the planet, and the descenting group, that firepower couldn't be used to force any concessions of actions by the planetary government.

And another off topic.
Have we seen any cases since TNG, where Gunboat Diplomacy has worked?

Of course not everyone plays the rules.. especially if it's a) a new species who doesn't know the rules or b) they are on a genocidal all or nothing 'win' war...

But don't forget the reasons why we have rules such as the Geneva convention...

1) there's the flinch factor.. if you can do it to them, they can do it to you..
2) If you go for all out nuclear Armageddon, you destroy yourself. (See 'wargames')
3) If you are fighting a war for territory/resources/infrastructure, and you destroy those things... you lost, regardless of if your enemy was defeated!

The Romulans, Klingons, Federation, Cardassians all want more or less the same things.. resources, planets, and to prove their opinion is right... you can have none of those things if you unleash a isolytic subspace weapon which tears a rip in spacetime from here to the Klingon Homeworld, you lost, regardless of if you destroyed the enemy, you just broke the universe! :D

There are of course wars which are fought not for those reasons: An enemy gone insane; Reigious ferver; Nihilism or some wierd ass Scifi reason, like they want to harvest your souls, and then go back to their universe, so they ain't bothered if your galaxy implodes! :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tobian

The Romulans, Klingons, Federation, Cardassians all want more or less the same things.. resources, planets, and to prove their opinion is right... you can have none of those things if you unleash a isolytic subspace weapon which tears a rip in spacetime from here to the Klingon Homeworld, you lost, regardless of if you destroyed the enemy, you just broke the universe! :D

---

Very good points. Why war is being waged is also a defining factor in the rules of engagement.

A defender is likely to be more constrained in an urban war situation.

An enemy that seeks to take and occupy a city has to be equally careful, collateral damage depends on their plans for after the battle. But for strategic locations then we can safely assume that they cannot demolish large areas of city and population to win.

An enemy more interested in ethnic cleansing or causing terror would likely feel little remorse at the idea of massive collateral damage.

And best of all, an invader that is searching for or capturing an objective must avoid any mass destruction at all, at risk of destroying what they came for. Mind you, if the objective is small/personal it may not trigger a full scale invasion and be better suited to covert strike teams.

Oh lets not forget about the aftermath. A friendly occupation can easily turn unfriendly if not handled correctly problems arise not only through insurgents and agents planted to oppose you, but equally if your occupation seems too heavy handed the civil population can easily turn.

This scenario if handled correctly could easily mirror modern political events and as such continue the great tradition of trek. But beware it is at that point where things start to get... political.

NOTE: Guys, the same thing goes for this conversation, dont let us derail into politics, but keep the subject matter about the scenario under discussion.

haha I ain't touching modern day politics :)

I would answer the issue of urban warfare problems in a trek scenario with this...

1) You wouldn't do it unless there were a specific set of circumstances which meant you had no choice, such as transporter inhibitors, natural conditions which prevented beaming, underground structures, you didn't have the technology (your mothership had to leave on another mission etc).

2) Transporters and sensors are far from infallible. As with any modern warfare, it's a game of tactical advantage.. for every measure, someone invents a counter measure.. Transporters rendering you defencless? Install shields or inhibitors.. everyone has a tricorder? mask your signature, shield yourself, employ false sensor generators

3) sensors/transporters are easily overcome by data bloat... The proverbial needle in a haystack. It's easier to hide people in a crowd, than in a dark room, even with super advanced sensors.

To be honest in a game situation, a great use for something like this is to present the.. really easy scenario.. "Oh it should be so easy to beam down, track the bad guys, beam them up, and imprison them" - and then surprise them with a series obstacles in their path.. Look at Insurrection as a great example... what should have been an easy to overcome populace used tactics cunning and a little technology and BANG the Sona had a major headache on their hands!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tobian

haha I ain't touching modern day politics :)

---

hehe, yeah, I had to work really hard not to do so in my post. Harder than I thought it would be...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dubwas

In my game there are 3 planets having at each other and I was thinking about this one Npc that was going to be a sniper. In a world with beam weapons as in instant kill but you tend to find your shooter fast I was thinking of kinds of tricks I could play or if a sniper is just not viable with trek warfare you know with sensor arrays and transporters and all. Either way just wondered what people thought urban warfare in the 24 would be like not sure if their was much street to street fighting in DS9. I mean a ship with its weapons might be able to turn a city into slag but its a waste of good infrastructure but could gurella tactics be viable in where everyone has a tricorder? I guess theres anti-sensor belts I always wondered why not every soldier in DS9 wore one I mean if you get picked up by sensors whats stoping people from just beaming you up in a cell for a nice torture session or hell just scattering your particles all willy nilly. It may be just me but as a GM players love transporters if I throw something at em I have to have a way around the all mighty transporter. Wild beast killing villagers find its immune to phasers? beam the dam thing up in space! The bad guys shields are down quick beam their bridge crew into the brig! Thats another thing once the shields are down what spots people in the show from just beaming all the threats all willy nifty. I mean whats good for the goose is good for the gander i guess but if I had a baddy transport my pcs crew in the void they'd be pissed... I dono not saying theres not ways around it..eh what the hell this tread was about urban warfare and it became my bitchfest on pcs and transporters..eh sorry aobut that...any ideas on transporters to would be cool just limits around and what not. Oh one questing if a vessle has its shields raised can it use its transporters for things besides intraship transport.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dubwas

Some really solid stuff here guys. The sniper was to be a foe or maybe estranged ally eventually. Many of the sides are employing mercs so I can throw a few intresting alien soldiers of fortune. I'm going to have the enemy use various methods of jamming + holographic decoys to mask their movement add in some mines mix in automated hunter drones a few aoe ventron pulse devices to mess with weapons. along with orbital bombardment from various sides of the conflict and low flying shuttle craft to strafe ground troops and I have a wonderful bloddy mess to test my pcs mettle should be fun no matter what they do either throw their lot in with one of the factions or try to negotiate a peace.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dubwas

Cool I like that actually I plan on the sniper to use that one slug gun from that ds9 episode where dax has to solve a murder the rifle transports the bullet in front of the target but intresting shots could be set up like haveing the bullet emerge from odd angles makeing it look like the shot came from friendlies ect. Hes going to be a old dominion war buddy of the captians who could not get his head out of the war and go back to normal starfleet duty so he went freelance and got himself caught up in this war he dosent really care what side he servers but the side that paid the most and he dosen't break deals he still has a bit loyal to the federation so he will go for disabling shots on the pc but be completely ruthless to the npc soldiers that poision dart thing is neat might use that if not ill save it for another time . as for medical officers I plan to keep him busy with the wounded of the war and the science officer/engineer will be busy comeing up with things to counter alien tech Im sure

---

OK I tried to post earlier, however the site went down for about an hour, which deleted my reply. Well back on topic in helping this GM.

I have to ask. I understand that one of the members of one of the combatants has connections to the ships Captain, however, that shouldn't matter. My question is what reason would Starfleet have to send the PCs ship to this area, a known interplanetary warzone? If these planets are of a lower technology level even if other powers are already influencing their sociatle evolution, wouldn't the Prime Directive still apply? My concern with the idea is, what reason would they have to go into this combat zone? Even if Captains would like to see their ships as theirs to use as they please, I would think that the Federation Council, the Federation, Starfleet Command, and through them the citizens of the Federation, would think otherwise.

Say this former colleuge went "of the reservation". Doesn't mean that that former brother-in-arms need necessarily be a Starfleeter . . . there was an alliance after all that fought against the Dominion. For instances the Axis wasn't just Germany, Japan, and Italy. Other minor countries were party to the Axis as well.

From how you describe the scenario you have three planets in the same system, all at war with each other for reasons presently unstated. They must be warp capable in order to draw attention to mercenaries, and have sufficient resources to manipulate inorder to pay these exterior hired forces . . . and what's stopping one of the merc groups from throwing a coup and taking an area of one of these planets as their own? However, that doesn't mean that their tech level is on par with the major powers, probably in areas significantly under par.

One Idea, I thought you could use to draw the PCs ship into the area is that one of the planets involved in the fight is much like pre 19th Century Japan, in a self imposed isolation, but with an unclave for extra planetary interaction. Those who are allowed off-planet, and are connected to a government elite and keep secret the extent which the planet is inferior to greater powers. Well, that is the way it was before the interplanetary wars happened . . . imagine the shock to the planets masses when another planet desides to try to invade.

Or how about having an area like the Shanghai International Settlement, an area where due to treaties, the planet has given soveignty to off-planet governments in a certain city, where there is a significant extra-planetary population. And since that area is a source of influx of goods, technology, and trade . . . the native population has grown up around it, and for the better off, within it. Well since the area has so many of the native population, another planets forces may see the area as a fair target, when targetting the planets government.

Imagine a future version of the China Marines, and other powers defense contingents trying futiley to defend what, due to treaty, is sovereign Federation Territory.

I guess transporter damping fields would be pretty common in the Star Trek universe, especially with such scary things as teleporting bombs and sniper rfiles with minitransporter systems that allow a sniper to be in an enclosed space and shoot someone in another.

Tchau!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fred

I guess transporter damping fields would be pretty common in the Star Trek universe, especially with such scary things as teleporting bombs and sniper rfiles with minitransporter systems that allow a sniper to be in an enclosed space and shoot someone in another.

Tchau!

---

I think planning adventures for 20th level DnD characters is a good baseline for thinking about Trek combat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King

I think planning adventures for 20th level DnD characters is a good baseline for thinking about Trek combat.

---

Except Sleep works on the high level characters. And you can call the ship for some orbial bombardment and air support.

Having the ship stun people a couple of blocks away before you move in would seem to be a valid tactic. More aggressive culture might not use the stun setting and just phaser areas of resistance from orbit.