Captain?

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Originally Posted by selek

The episode Valiant shows the dangers of allowing children- no matter how brilliant- to command a starship.

That particular dope-head sacrificed an entire crew because he was out joy-riding in the shiniest hot-rod he could lay hands on, and was more concerned about playing "captain" and making a name for himself than in safeguarding ship and crew.

Watter's lack of maturity, judgement, and discretion were the direct, proximate cause of the loss of that ship and her crew.

IIRC, Nog was already a commissioned officer when he boarded the Valiant- not a cadet out playing "grown-up".

Upon rescue, Nog should have been court-martialed for dereliction of duty, negligent homicide, and then casheired from the service. He had a duty to Starfleet and to those kids to assume command and do the right thing. Instead, he got suckered in by a pretty face and a couple of "rah-rah" speeches.

A commissioned officer of any grade automatically outranks a cadet, no matter how senior. Watter's appointment and de facto promotion were temporary- lasting only until a competent officer arrived to assume command.

With no commissioned officers left aboard, even O'Brien (an enlisted man) would have been justified in taking over the Valiant and returning her to base. Captain Ramirez's promotion of Watters was both temporary and an act of desperation. Had Nog been aboard in the battle which killed Ramirez, he would have been promoted, not some snotty kid with delusions that he's the next James T. Kirk.

That particular episode was one of the worst written and worst acted of any of the DS9's- and compares poorly even to some of Voyagers shoddy product.

Starfleet has existed for two hundred years and has survived because they are NOT in the habit of entrusting children with starships.

Seven officers and thirty-five cadets on a six month cruise? Give me a break. And get the writers off whatever they were smoking when they came up with THAT one.

Your captain should automagically have more general experience than any one of his officers.
Otherwise, he wouldn't be the captain.

Kirk, Picard, Walker Keel, and Tryla Scott were the youngest captains in Starfleet- and they all had at least ten years of experience and were proven in a trial by fire.

They were given the "center seat" because of their proven experience and judgement.

Yes, departmental officers might have more specialized knowledge in a particular field, but the captain is in charge because of his overall record of service and of capable judgement.

Yes- "young" wardrooms (where most of the officers are from the junior grades) do happen- and many captains prefer "young" wardrooms- but they are ALWAYS matched up with a strong complement of veteran enlisted men and an experienced commander.


You should also keep in mind that the differences between your junior and senior characters are generally incremental rather than exponential. That's one of the nice things about the CODA system in particular.

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All that said. Its your game. So if you want to ignore any sense of reality in favour of letting your players lead the way (and in an RPG thats the way it should be, almost like writing a TV show... odd that)... but anyway if you want to create a situation where your players are the semi-masters of their own destiny then the TV series shows that any-old half-arsed excuse is good enough.

Of course a decent GM might save the repercussions of this until later and make an episode out of it.

It would actually work quite well if (as Sarek shows) someone has opinions on the issue, but while a little tension in character is good dont let it get out of character and beware letting it bog the plot down...

Good luck...

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Originally Posted by selek

The episode Valiant shows the dangers of allowing children- no matter how brilliant- to command a starship.


IIRC, Nog was already a commissioned officer when he boarded the Valiant- not a cadet out playing "grown-up".

Upon rescue, Nog should have been court-martialed for dereliction of duty, negligent homicide, and then casheired from the service. He had a duty to Starfleet and to those kids to assume command and do the right thing. Instead, he got suckered in by a pretty face and a couple of "rah-rah" speeches.

A commissioned officer of any grade automatically outranks a cadet, no matter how senior. Watter's appointment and de facto promotion were temporary- lasting only until a competent officer arrived to assume command.

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Nog was field promoted to ensign and was still basically a second year cadet. Field promotions does not mean peramently promoted in Star Trek. Riker was field promoted to Captain in the Best of Both Worlds and that did not stick.

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Originally Posted by selek

With no commissioned officers left aboard, even O'Brien (an enlisted man) would have been justified in taking over the Valiant and returning her to base.

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Incorrect, Cadets on assignment with the Fleet would be consider midshipmen and outrank an enlisted man.

Ramirez took on a mission to find out about the new Dominion supership since it would take time to get the Valiant back to a safe base. The reason why it was used as a training ship was that the Defiant class did work to specs move at best before at Warp 6. O'Brien was able to over come these faults in the field.

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Originally Posted by selek

Captain Ramirez's promotion of Watters was both temporary and an act of desperation. Had Nog been aboard in the battle which killed Ramirez, he would have been promoted, not some snotty kid with delusions that he's the next James T. Kirk.

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They really did not show in what nature of the promotion(s) were made. He could have given field promotions to all or some of them and then give out acting Lt., j.g. and above to the others. Promotions were needed as Ramirez was dying; some need to be captain even if it was as acting captain.

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Originally Posted by selek

That particular episode was one of the worst written and worst acted of any of the DS9's- and compares poorly even to some of Voyagers shoddy product.

Starfleet has existed for two hundred years and has survived because they are NOT in the habit of entrusting children with starships.

Seven officers and thirty-five cadets on a six month cruise? Give me a break. And get the writers off whatever they were smoking when they came up with THAT one.

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It was a training ship. Gee like the Enterprise was in Star Trek: The Movie. Just that the masive Breen invasion deep into Federation space put it behind enemy lines and over a minimum of 2 attacks the Valiant lost all its regular officers.

Incorrect, Cadets on assignment with the Fleet would be consider midshipmen and outrank an enlisted man.

That is not true. Look how the us navy designates a midshipman- that individual is not considered an officer, he or she is considered a student and therefor an ordinary able seaman does out rank them. So I have been informed by 2 uncles who were in the USN for more than 10 years, a father who did sea duty for 12 years in the USN, and 2 cousins who did 4 years active with the USN.

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Originally Posted by skree

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Incorrect, Cadets on assignment with the Fleet would be consider midshipmen and outrank an enlisted man.

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That is not true. Look how the us navy designates a midshipman- that individual is not considered an officer, he or she is considered a student and therefor an ordinary able seaman does out rank them. So I have been informed by 2 uncles who were in the USN for more than 10 years, a father who did sea duty for 12 years in the USN, and 2 cousins who did 4 years active with the USN.

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"Midshipman" is the proper term for a naval officer cadet, whether at sea or ashore.

Having made six forward deployments with the U.S. Navy, three of which required me to chaperone middies, I can say that your assertion is false.

In Patrick O'Brien novels and the Napoleonic navies, midshipmen were considered officers within the chain of command.

But no more.

In the modern service, midshipmen are treated as officers by courtesy only- they have NO standing in the ship's chain of command.

And you can bet your bippy that a dying commander will promote an experienced chief or NCO with actual time at sea over a snot-nosed cadet with a couple of years of class-work under his belt.

Experience trumps theory every time- and any responsible captain will choose an experienced veteran over a green acolyte every time.

Watters was the best of a set of bad choices which Ramirez faced. That doesn't for a moment make him a good choice.

That ship and her crew were lost for one reason and one reason only- an arrogant, over-his-head puppy named Tim Watters.

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Originally Posted by selek

[...]an arrogant, over-his-head puppy named Tim Watters.

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And don't forget 'pill popping' as well

@Skree, Selek: although your points concerning midshipmen in the US Navy are probably entirely accurate in the Navy, remember that Starfleet, although influenced by modern navies, is not THE US NAVY. Therefore, since the writers did not tell us everything about Starfleet's operating procedures, we have to assume that what happens on-screen is the best clue to those procedures.

Simply put: Starfleet is not the Navy, and there's no sense arguing that it should act just like the Navy, when what happens on-screen directly contradicts that. Screenplays determine what is and isn't Star Trek, not what the Navy, Air Force, or any other real-life military force does or doesn't do.

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Originally Posted by Nolmir

@Skree, Selek: although your points concerning midshipmen in the US Navy are probably entirely accurate in the Navy, remember that Starfleet, although influenced by modern navies, is not THE US NAVY. Therefore, since the writers did not tell us everything about Starfleet's operating procedures, we have to assume that what happens on-screen is the best clue to those procedures.

Simply put: Starfleet is not the Navy,and there's no sense arguing that it should act just like the Navy, when what happens on-screen directly contradicts that. Screenplays determine what is and isn't Star Trek, not what the Navy, Air Force, or any other real-life military force does or doesn't do.

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I'm sure that Starfleet's inability to learn from the mistakes of others is a great comfort to the families of the children lost aboard the Valiant.

I do however concede that canon- no matter how asinine- is dictated by what occurs on screen, as opposed to common sense, logic, or by what normal, thinking people would do, or if the writers weren't half-potted as they mapped out the script.

As I stated above, that was- hands-down- the worst episode of DS9.

It has no rivals in its sheer, incipient stupidity- and makes no more sense than having a 'bunch of chompy, crushy,choppy things in the middle of the hallway'.

Even taken at face value, Nog's actions were criminally negligent and Watter's tantamount to mass-murder.

Nog was unfit to wear the uniform (he'd have been first in line for Kool-aid at Jonestown)- though he did grow into his rank later.

Watters- the pill happy little Napoleon- single-handedly ensured his crew never got that chance.

His sole authorized mission was the safety of his ship, her crew, and returning them to Starfleet.

He sublimated that mission to his private agenda of making a name for himself (just like Nick Locarno) and needlessly sacrificed his ship and crew on the altar of his own ego.

But then again (as someone who actually served aboard a ship-of-the-line) and having had the privelege of being entrusted with the lives and welfare of some of the finest young men and women on the planet (if only as leading NCO) I don't have strong feelings about the matter one way or the other. ;)

Yes- it's just a TV show and subject to the whim of clueless and arrogant writers- but one of Star Trek's hallmarks has ALWAYS been it's technical and scientific accuracy.

That should hold no less true in questions of rank, privelege, and lessons learned in blood.

"Cuz I said so" doesn't cut it in the real world- and it doesn't cut in good screen writing, either.

That card is a cop-out, no matter how or where it's played.

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Originally Posted by selek

But then again (as someone who actually served aboard a ship-of-the-line) and having had the privelege of being entrusted with the lives and welfare of some of the finest young men and women on the planet (if only as leading NCO) I don't have strong feelings about the matter one way or the other. ;)

Yes- it's just a TV show and subject to the whim of clueless and arrogant writers- but one of Star Trek's hallmarks has ALWAYS been it's technical and scientific accuracy.

That should hold no less true in questions of rank, privelege, and lessons learned in blood.

"Cuz I said so" doesn't cut it in the real world- and it doesn't cut in good screen writing, either.

That card is a cop-out, no matter how or where it's played.

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I think that you may be missing the point I was trying to make: Star Trek is a TV show, not real life. Personally, I don't really care if the reason the cadets had a ship was stupid, or if Starfleet did that it would endanger lives. As long as it's entertaining, that is. That being, said it may have been bad writing, but it's still canon, unless you don't want it to be in your game. It's easy enough to ignore that episode if you really dislike it that much. There's not really any point in getting so worked up about it.

Also, since when has Star Trek been scientifically and technically accurate? Technology in Star Trek is always a plot device, as is Starfleet protocol. Getting upset because some of what the writers wrote for Star Trek isn't "accurate" is like getting upset because Firefly has horses alongside starships and the Force isn't realistic. It's part of the show.

*moderator hat on*

Nolmir and selek, your last several posts have nothing to do with CODA and are beginning to take an unpleasant tone. If you wish to continue your discussion, please do so off-site or over in Sarek's Lounge.

Sorry. I didn't mean for my comments to come across as unpleasant or hostile. And yes, they didn't really have anything to do with CODA.

I apologize, Selek, if my comments came across as unpleasant or hostile. That was not the spirit in which they were intended.

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Originally Posted by Nolmir

Sorry. I didn't mean for my comments to come across as unpleasant or hostile. And yes, they didn't really have anything to do with CODA.

I apologize, Selek, if my comments came across as unpleasant or hostile. That was not the spirit in which they were intended.

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Ditto- no offense was intended

I guess I must be in the minority as I rather enjoyed "Valiant". I do agree that Nog should have taken command of the ship as the senior (and ONLY!) officer present to order the immediate return to the nearest starbase, while that might have been the way things would work in the real life USN and probably even in Starfleet, but that would not have been a very entertaining episode.

In our games I use frigate class vessels and Oberth classes as the starting point for LT officers once they have passed a time as an officer on patrol they can then be able to move onto a larger ship as well as gaining a promotion.

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Originally Posted by somaticon

In our games I use frigate class vessels and Oberth classes as the starting point for LT officers once they have passed a time as an officer on patrol they can then be able to move onto a larger ship as well as gaining a promotion.

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When our group got into CODA, we were starting with experienced characters who had been around for a long time, and played out in the FASA system. One of the characters started out in 1992, so he'd been around for 17 years.

What I did was try to guestimate how many advances, say, our Captain would have after over 20 years of Starfleet experience (and 11 years of gaming); and the transfers of the characters went quite well.

I actually think in CODA some of our characters came out more to what the players were trying to play over the years.

I'd say if you want a crew to be more advanced, or experienced, then go for it. Use the characters in the NG, and the excellent PDF of the other TOS characters (Scotty, etc.) as an example. And if you want to play a Picard-type Captain, give him or her a similar number of advances to Picard, etc.

Ships- we use a lot of original designs. Our most fun with a canon ship design has been either the original Constitution for our TOS era series, or the one we're working on now - a Luna class.