My Take on JJ-Timeline Post New Movie

So I've been thinking more about the Temporal Cold War and I might be warming up to the idea, no pun intended.

Going with my want to have one of Nero's crew escape, perhaps one of them is a Changeling/Undine/Suliban. One of the factions involved in the TCW could have intentionally orchestrated the events between Nemesis and JJ-Trek for the express purpose of creating a new timeline. Their reasoning behind it all was that a new timeline would give them new potential allies in the fight.

This would explain a lot of things. Why the Romulans were experimenting with subspace weapons and Borg technology, how Red Matter was created, etc. While I want to limit the time travel stuff as much as possible, this does sort of fill in the rest of the blanks and give me an ultimate "antagonist" to play against Spock-Prime. Knowing that the other side is "breaking the rules" will justify Spock taking more drastic measures in this timeline.

That's an interesting idea: a member of Nero's crew becoming basicly the anti Spock Prime with only one goal in mind: Protect the Empire! (from it's enemies, itself, and the supernova) If you wanted TCW involvement, perhaps he is a temporal agent, or maybe he was saved at the last second by one (that would limit time travel; he's on his own, perhaps with something to prove his story to current era Romulans). He now acts as an advisor to the Praetor, leading the Star Empire to both un-imagined new technologies and undreamed of glory and conquests, forcing Spock prime to take a similar role to prevent Romulan supremacy.

But what is the end goal, if there IS TCW stuff afoot? Perhaps a more miltaristic Starfleet, secretly lead to new levels of tech and discovery by Spock Prime, goes to war with a greatly empowered Star Empire, eventually leading to the fall of both governments and the rise of a new power (klingons? Borg? Dominon? some new or forgotten race, like the Husnock?)

Interesting thought, concerning the never seen Husnock: Thanks to Time travel, the effect can sometimes create it's own cause. With the changes in the Timeline, they weren't wiped out by an angry Douwd. In their future, they realize what happened to them (somehow) and decide to change the timline to fit their needs, leading them to attempt to start a second Romulan War!

I was hypothesizing something similar with regards to the Temporal Cold War and the Na'kuhl: That they came from a timeline in which Vulcan's diaspora never happened, so the Romulans never came to Romulus and bred with their ancestors, the proto-Remans. That the Hobus explosion happened in the 'original' timeline is an indicator that that entire timeline and its subsidiaries are hostile to their revanchist goals; they could be trying to create timelines just to snarl the various Federations and versions of Romulus against each other.

Some more ideas I've tossed about and am trying to work out.

1) The main antagonist is the Mysterious Humanoid who assisted the Suliban back in the 22nd Century. Since he has limited time manipulation, he seems a likely candidate.

2) At first, he wanted to set about creating as many alternate timelines as possible in order to have more versions of his "minions." He has since figured out that doing so also creates more people that he has to work against. Now he is trying to gather various peoples and technologies together to create *working title* the Eraser Weapon. And no, not the stupid rail gun from that really bad movie. The EW combines transphasic, quantum, chronometric, thalaron, subspace and who knows what else to create the ultimat effect: erasing something from all times, permanently. In other words, if his agents zap say... Jim Kirk with it then Capt. Kirk never exists in any timeline, ever.

3) During his time in the blackhole/time portal, Spock-Prime is visited by the Starfleet agents from the 31st Century. They sort of explain what is going on and recruit him to the cause. That is why the lag between Nero arriving and Spock arriving. They needed Spock to arrive at a certain point, otherwise Nero would have captured him and destroyed the Federation.

4) The Undine, or Species 8472, are actually the next step in evolution/genetic engineering from the Suliban. Certain parties used Eugenics theories combined with Changeling DNA to further evolve the Suliban.

5) Nero and certain members of his crew were actually Undine infiltrators working for the MH. That explains Nero's irrational behavior in the past, ie. not caring that Romulas hadn't been destroyed yet and could possibly be saved.

The obvious corollary is that the Mysterious Humanoid is remains of someone who found out how to deflect the Eraser Weapon... mostly.

Of course, it begs the obvious question: how does the Eraser Weapon tell what counts as 'Jim Kirk'?

I don't know that it really matters on how it knows. It just does. When you are capable making a device that effects space and time to that degree, the details just don't matter. In fact, I'd even go a little rules lawyer and say that in the various rulebooks it flat out says that technology this advanced doesn't have to be explained.

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Originally Posted by Hadeshorn

I don't know that it really matters on how it knows. It just does. When you are capable making a device that effects space and time to that degree, the details just don't matter. In fact, I'd even go a little rules lawyer and say that in the various rulebooks it flat out says that technology this advanced doesn't have to be explained.

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Well yes, you and the rulebook are right. But also no. As Narratoor its probably a good idea to have some vague idea of what it does (even if its a throwaway technobabble description), because players have that weird tendancy to throw a spanner into the works mid-game and you dont want to get derailed by the right question at exactly the wrong moment. ;)

No arguments on that one. After I made my previous post, I thought about it a bit more and came to mostly the same conclusion.

How's this for starters:

The device removes things from the blueprints of the universe at the point of origin. Since there is no "that thing" at the point of origin, it can never exist, no matter the timeline.

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Originally Posted by Hadeshorn

No arguments on that one. After I made my previous post, I thought about it a bit more and came to mostly the same conclusion.

How's this for starters:

The device removes things from the blueprints of the universe at the point of origin. Since there is no "that thing" at the point of origin, it can never exist, no matter the timeline.

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OK... So now add the meaningless technobabble to make that;

"The device erases the existance of it target from temporal existence, causing an existential paradox that converges all timelines and manifests as total erasure of the target from all reality."

I wanted to add the phrase 'known timelines' but I guess I can leave that out as your get-out clause.

You have watched Voyager; Year of Hell right?

Since every version of everything exists simutaneously on various quantum levels, the device analyzes the "Basal Quantum Frequency"( the quantum signature that is inherient in all the various incarantions of the target) of it's target and it creates an "Inverse Quantum Flux" that erases the target. And all variations of the target. Everywhere, Everywhen. :rolleyes:
(how's that?)

So, if you shoot Jim Kirk, peaceful farmer in the Iowa agriculture combine on Earth 232, you take out both Captain James T. Kirk, Admiral Jami T. Kirk, Proconsul Jamus Tiberious Kirk, Captain Unit JTK, Shipmaster Jamul T, Ka'rk, and so on.

I have not seen Year of Hell, but I will add it to my "research list." I've been going through a few of the Enterprise episodes to get the info I need on the Suliban and the TCW.

Combining both of your theories, I've got this:

The device determines the Basal Quantum Frequency of the target. Upon doing so, it fires a Inverse Quantum Flux into the Point of Origin of all universes. The interaction between the Flux and the Point of origin creates an existential paradox thus erasing all incarnations of the object from every reality, permanently.

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Originally Posted by Hadeshorn

I don't know that it really matters on how it knows. It just does. When you are capable making a device that effects space and time to that degree, the details just don't matter. In fact, I'd even go a little rules lawyer and say that in the various rulebooks it flat out says that technology this advanced doesn't have to be explained.

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I'm not asking how it works, or for technobabble. I'm asking what counts as 'Jim Kirk.' I'm asking how 'Jim Kirk' works.

For example, if you shot Will Riker with it, would it also erase Thomas Riker? Does it leave a person-shaped lacuna in space and time, or do events collapse to accomodate the absence? How similar, genetically, would other Riker children in alternate realities have to be to be affected by this device? What about a Will Riker from a universe where his mother ate completely different things during her pregnancy, leading to identical genetic structure but differing absolute molecular identity? Does it erase or redistribute all the molecules that were ever part of you?

Secondarily, wouldn't the very existence of such a weapon preclude the continued existence of... existence? Somewhere in the multiverse, this device is created (or even deposited at the beginning of time from the future of a particular timeline). From that point on, every time someone doesn't fire it in one universe (or even accidentally discharges it), it is fired in the necessarily branching, the positive deleting the first negative. Ultimately, you can't not have fired it at everything, because the effect of any timeline in which you have fired it spills over into the ones in which you have not.

I think you've officially turned my brain into Jell-O.

Maybe I'm not versed enough in temporal/quantum mechanics/theory or maybe you're reading way too much into this. In either case, I only partly understand what you are trying to point out. The things I don't understand are making me want to go caveman rage and start smashing my computer.

However, trying to answer you:

1) Events would collapse to accomodate the absence. Any and everything that had been influenced by that person or thing would be uninfluenced. Thing of it in terms of a reverse Butterfly Effect. If there never was a Butterfly, the tsunami never happened. Hopefully that answers that.

2) Because of the concept of the "original universe" any alterations from Universe to Universe wouldn't matter. Think of it in terms of say.. comic books. If Superman got zapped with this thing, it would erase all Supermans and all derivatives thereof. So, no Superman, no Conner Kent (Kon-El), no Ultraman, no Superboy Prime, no Superman Red-Son, etc. Thus, anything that any of them had ever influenced is suddenly altered to having never encountered the version they encountered.

Hopefully that helps answer some questions.

1. So it removes that sperm from existence, does it preclude another sperm from fertilizing that egg? If another fertilizes it, does it preclude Rikermom from naming the result 'Will'?

2. Of that list, I've only read Red Son. It was light on the multiversal physics. So, um... yeah. Doesn't help.

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Originally Posted by Hadeshorn

1) Events would collapse to accomodate the absence. Any and everything that had been influenced by that person or thing would be uninfluenced. Thing of it in terms of a reverse Butterfly Effect. If there never was a Butterfly, the tsunami never happened. Hopefully that answers that.

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You REALLY need to watch Year of Hell. Your weapon is the main enemy starship and all these erasures can make quite significant deviations to the present (none of which are observable/recordable).

For example. Erase Jim Kirk. He was not there to save Earth. The Federation is now based on Vulcan and humans are a dying species made up of the few off-worlders at the time Earth was detroyed, the legacy of the Enterprise dies out as there is no legendary captains exploits... Sybok becomes a significant force with 'god' on his side... No Eneterprise C to save the Klingons on Nerada III and the Fedration is ravaged by contant war with the Klingons, etc (a bit extreme I know, but you get the drift)

And if your game takes place in the TNG era and this happens, the crew go from Bridge crew on a Sovereign Starship to refugees on a rag tag flet and dont notice.

And your players may have seen the episode and will have an edge on you. A slightly different take would be to erase the target from existence but retain the 'shape' of the timeline. So erase Kirk and the events that kirk took centre stage are maybe those of a healthy Fleet Captain Pike (going with the original casting here for ease of use).

And Temporal mechanics are SUPPOSED to give you a headache if you think about them too hard. Thats why Lucsey and Dulmer of the DTI have worried looks on their faces when they investigate temoral incursions and Kirk gets off scott free just winging it...