"Submergence" - story idea, TOS or TNG eras

The Federation didn't even exist until, what, 'Devil in the Dark'? The consistency of TOS is something only visible in hindsight.

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Originally Posted by Owen E Oulton

By the TOS wording of the PD, even identifying the ship and the Federation to PD-protected species would have violated the PD, but both Picard and Sisko identified themselves to Klingons and Romulans all the time. Surely shooting at them would be interference.

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That's because the Klingons and the Romulans were cultures capable of interacting with the Federation on equal footing. A pre-contact, not-warp-capable species is not. Same with the restrictions on Federation usage of the cloaking device—a limitation that fits perfectly well with the Federation's purpose as a non-aggressive polity based around mutual consent instead of an imperialistic power.

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TNG even stated that the PD doesn't apply to civilians, whereas in TOS it most certainly did.

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The Angelites were already aware of alien civilisations (probably due to previous cultural contamination) and thus covered under the grandfather clause that covered Neural. We can only look at these two examples and derive the idea that allowed contact for grandfathered worlds depends on their level of technical knowledge and previous awareness.

For counter-example, look at the researchers on Mintaka III—they're civilians, yet even more egregiously concerned about lack of contact than with the Neuralites.

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After the egregious errors in TNG (IMNSHO the poorest of the Trek shows) people still have the temerity to pick on Voyager and Enterprise, which were both head-and-shoulders above the level of TNG.

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Putting aside that they were written by the same people, VOY continues TNG and DS9's interpretation of the PD applying as a general principle of non-aggression and non-interference even with postwarp cultures. (see 'Caretaker,' 'Thirty Days.')

A genear principle of non-interference and non-aggression is not the same as the PD. the PD is a specific order. Like I said, there are other restrictions, not part of the PD.

The rule against cloaks is one such example - the Treaty of Algeron - a specific non-PD ruling.

I'm not saying there were/are no such limitations, just that calling them the PD is wrong. It's like giving a speeding ticket for running a red light.

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Originally Posted by Owen E Oulton

A genear principle of non-interference and non-aggression is not the same as the PD. the PD is a specific order. Like I said, there are other restrictions, not part of the PD.

The rule against cloaks is one such example - the Treaty of Algeron - a specific non-PD ruling.

I'm not saying there were/are no such limitations, just that calling them the PD is wrong. It's like giving a speeding ticket for running a red light.

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One may also run a red light while speeding.

Yes, but then you'd be liable to get both tickets.

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Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King

One may also run a red light while speeding.

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Then one merely needs to go faster. With sufficient velocity the red light will appear green due to significant blue-shift. :D

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Originally Posted by Owen E Oulton

TNG was about "timidly creeping where everyone has gone b(e)fore".

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...Only after having a terribly earnest four-hour conference in the observation lounge first!:rolleyes: Angry face-to-face in the Ready Room as an optional "exciting bit".

I'm wholly in agreement with you on the TNG 'take' on the PD, Owen. One week, it was all "let's sit on our hands and agonize while a whole race dies", the next it was "smite them with the phaser banks like a judgement from on high!!" The PD got folded, twisted, and manipulated by the writers to suit the needs of the episode du jour.:mad:

Patterns of Force and Bread and Circuses have long been my blueprint for the PD in games I've run. A pre-warp culture that can't handle the idea of "others" from the far side of the sky qualifies for the PD. A collection of drug-peddling parasites that manipulates the people of a neighbouring world (TNG's truly dreadful, preachy, Symbiosis) does not. Especially when said drug-peddlers know enough about the Federation and its laws to throw the PD into Picard's face and then smugly expect him to roll over for them.

This thread makes me want to run a pre-2218 first contact campaign and follow a number of cultures through developments after meeting an aggressively meddling Federation crew—i.e. PCs.