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You are right, but I think you get my point.;)Quote:
Originally posted by Sea Tyger
Ah, but sergeant major is an actual rank in the US Army and Marine Corps (and in the Royal Army/Marines, IIRC), not just a position (however, yes, there are positions called the Sergeant Major of the Army and the Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps).
OTOH, in "Menagerie", Kirk says, "...when he was promoted to fleet captain." If he was a position he would have been "assigned."
Ok, ok, nit picky, I know! ;)
From what I surmise, both Fleet Captain and Commodore were starfleet ranks common in the TOS era (and earlier). But it seems they have fallen out of use (but not necessarily abolished, as Owen can still argue that point).
And yes, Christopher Pike, Kirk's predecessor to Enterprise, was a Fleet Captain in rank by the time of "The Menagerie" two-part episode.
Ok, my interpretation :D
Note that DecTrek ranks Fleet Captain above Commodore and specifically equates it to Rear Admiral (one star), while the Star Trek Encyclopedia has them the other way around, and specifically categorises Fleet Captain as a Line rank, while Commodore is Flag.
On that basis, I think I'd go with the Encyclopedia, and swap the two in the PG.
With that out of the way, what do they represent, and what happened to them?
In TOS, we generally saw Commodores in charge of bases and some starships and the like, Fleet Captain just gets mentioned as a higher rank than Captain. Both are gone in the TNG era.
I reckon this has a lot to do with the way things have changed in the two time periods.
In the TOS era, Captains were often out of touch with SFC for a long time, and often had to make decisions with no input from superiors. However, it would occasionally be necessary to group ships together, and then you need a single commander. This is where the Commodore comes in - it's basically a rank for those Captains who nominally have command over two or more ships in an area (kind of a squadron commander), and have the power to make Federation-affecting decisions in their region. The Fleet Captain is the lowest rank of SFC itself, and specifically designates those staff officers having direct contact with the starship Captains. They are effectively the liaison with SFC. They may be based at SFC or in starbases, but as flag officers, they never have their own command responsibilies, they'd never command a starship or base for example.
By TNG's time, communications are much faster. The rank of Commodore is no longer necessary as Captains can liaise directly with their Fleet Captain, who is often based in a local system. When a squadron commander is needed, one Captain can be designated senior by the Rear Admiral, or the Admiral can take charge in person. The Fleet Captain rank is renamed Rear Admiral to make it clearer that this is a flag rank.
I'm also working on the common assumption that a line officer holds a physical command (vessel or base), a flag officer does not. When aboard another officer's command, a flag officer defers to the Captain in all operation issues, maintaining only a strategic point of view.
Does that make sense? I've tried to fit into Trek rather than the real world, so it may conflict with all those USN ranks :D
Given that I'm working in the TOS movie period, this all becomes rather important, so please comment!
In my personal opinion, I see the fleet captain as a "first among equals" rank that is one step away from Flag Officer.
A fleet captain would still be a captain in the grand scheme of things (I can't remember what the FC insignia looked like off hand), but have positional authoritiy over all other captains.
This rank is reserved for senior captains who do not necessarily qualify for promotion to flag rank (i.e., there are no flag positions available), but warrant a promotion or positional authority as the commander of a "squadron" or other semi-permanent or permanent task force.
In this way, you could say that Fleet Captain would be a "half step" between captain and commodore. The closest example in the US Navy would be the non-flag officer squadron commander. They're still captains, but they authority over all COs in their squadron. These sqadron COs are what the Navy calls "commodores" now, much in the same way that a ship's captain who is a lower rank is still called "captain" aboard his ship.
Commodores in the 1960's sense of the word are 1-star admirals, and I believe that this is what Gene was looking at when he made the ST rank. In this case, they are Flag Officers in all respects, and would hold greater command authority over all ships/officers under their command.
Now, some Commodores may manage their area of responsibility (be it a squadron, starbase, fleet, etc.) from the deck of a starship, meaning that they command the flagship as part of their flag officer duties. I believe Starfleet would be very reluctant to allow this practice on a fleet-wide scale, given that it would put it's most competent strategic officers too often in harm's way. But there are a few (Commodore Matt Decker, for example), and they are truly the best and the brightest.
Most commodores, though, manage their AOR from a starbase or other command location, providing guidance to starship captains as needed. Areas that aren't covered by a commodore would be covered directly by Starfleet Command.
Just my take.
Has there been any discussion on how many command echelons Starfleet has from one single ship to Starfleet Command facilities at San Francisco? Is there regional commands responsible for Starfleet operations withing their area of operations?
What about Type Commands like they have in US Navy (Yes, SF is no USN, but TypeComm seems to be quite practical echelon in chain of command).
I always thought that FASA did a good job with the Starfleet chain-of-command, and would probably go with something along those likes.
My personal opinion, from starship to C-in-C, would go something like this:
Starship
Squadron/Task Force CO or Starbase HQ
Fleet CO
Chief of Starfleet Operations
Commander-in-Chief, Starfleet
I think, given the nature of Starfleet and its fleet composition, you really wouldn't have a "type" command, as it is in the US Navy...i.e., Destroyer Squadrons, Logistics Groups, Cruiser-Destroyer Groups, etc.
However, I do see a "project management" command, i.e., a command that oversees the development and technical management of each class of vessel, as a component of the Advanced Starship Design Bureau.
In my campaign, a commodore is the senior captain of any squadron of starships that is not commanded by a flag officer. It's a position, not a rank. If there is a flag officer exercising overall command, his flagship is commanded by a flag captain (another postion, not a rank). I don't use the term fleet captain, but I suppose it could apply to the chief of an admiral's staff.
Now there's a thought I hadn't had. I still think it's a rank, though. :pQuote:
Originally posted by Sarge
I don't use the term fleet captain, but I suppose it could apply to the chief of an admiral's staff.
The Australian Navy still uses the rank of Commodore...it comes after Captain, and before Rear Admiral.
Just thought I'd mention it...
I think most of us knew that since both Canada and Australia are both territories of the UK, but self-governing.
Ahh, we are both members of the Commonwealth. Not territories. ;)
In the LUGTrek books Fleet Captain is also above Comodore, which is a line rank here. But as far as I know, Commodore was dropped in favour of Rear Admiral lower half. I always took the Fleet Captain rank as something for those you do not have the education and training or who do not want to become a Flag Officer, as well as an administrative neccessity. There are thousands of good captains out there, but there are simply not enough position for Admirals to promote them all, so they become Fleet Captain, actually only a acknoledgement of their achievements and no real advance in rank or authority.
BTW the rank seems to be dropped out quite early, as Kirk was never promoted to Fleet Captain but became Admiral in the movies. ( and the other way around ;) )
My bad. Thanks for the correction.Quote:
Originally posted by Phantom
Ahh, we are both members of the Commonwealth. Not territories. ;)
There was a 4 pip Admiral in Ds9 for the signing of Bajor's entry to the Federation. Was the episode Rapture?