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Funnily enough, I'm actually spending less time here now the political threads are no more. I know I can find other political forums, but in all honesty I must say I could find no finer sparring partners than the members of this site.
Still, when in another person's home, one should respect their rules, and so I do.
If you ask me, and you didn't... ;)
While I disagree with the "freedom of speech" argument (as others note, Don is free to control the speech on these boards as he sees fit), it is a reasonable enough request to reopen the political discussion. It might have been better if made privately to Don, though a public discussion has it advantages (which I am obviously participating in).
Personally, I enjoyed a lot of the political discussion, largely because there are some interesting people here whom I respect a great deal. But... regardless of the tone, it was occupying too much "bandwidth" given the "charter" of these boards. (As a side note, the discussion about Iraq was very civil here - visit The Neutral Zone forum of www.trekbbs.com if you want to see an example of "heated" political discussion.)
What might be a reasonable compromise (which Don is free to ignore) would be to reopen political discussion but keep the cap on Iraq. It would be a good way to gague both the civility and bandwidth such a discussion would generate. There were a few things mentioned that piqued my interest only peripherally related to Iraq - for example the role of patriotism, definitions of international law, etc.
Actually, most of your posts have made me feel a little better about the situtation. I just awanted to make an effort to get it out in the open to make sure EVERYBODY feels good about the situtation.
As to some points I would like to address
"This is Don's living room", while I see the point here I think a more adapt comparission is that TrekRPG is more like a local Bar or other public place privately owned while the owner has control over who comes in (and sets the atmosphere) they have little control over what is actually privately said and/or done there (save for actions which get a person thrown out or banned.
"Joining other threads," as a veteran of the Neutral zone over on TrekBBS I have to say I much prefered the tone (and maturity level) here during politcal conversations and frankly I don't want another discussion board because frankly I don't want to invest in the time it takes to keep up on them. I currently have only one board I want to be a part of, this one, and my interest in the main topic is more then enough to insure I stick around no matter what is decided here. Honestly, and I freely admit I my be wrong in my point of view but if someone left becuase of some political thread I have to question there reason for being here in the first place. i.e. are you here for the RPG and the occiasional Heated Policital thread or none at all or all the Political threads and the occiasional RPG thread? For example I will say most of the heated individuals from the political threads are still here.
"This board is chartered to discuss Trek and now LOTR gaming stuff." and Dune once upon a time. but what, I may ask, is the General Area for? The General Area was made so that people of the same communitty (TrekRPGer's and now LOTRRPGer's) could freely discusss whatever they want, music, culture, movies, TV, and yes Politics just look at the threads posted over the last year and see how varied your fellow posters interest are. I know many of my own opinions have broaded or changed thanks to these discussions
"This is not the United States" I like this since what the topic is about is more of an eternal truth, reguardless of which nation you came from, a person from France or Austrialia could be making the same plea to express themselves as far as I am concern and I would not care because the subject is so universal and I would support it. The will of the poster so far is keep going with Status que, which I will respect because I now feel feel the topic has been brought up at the right time after things have calmed down and people have expressed there opinion freely.
From Owen
Here's a link to a place where you can find appropriate outlet for your desire to discuss politics beyond those of the United Federation of Planets circa 2161-2378:
Hum, 2161, interesting date since you left out the dates for Enterprise that other heated source of debate. :D
Again thank you my friends, you have made me feel alittle better about this and I will continue to honor the stoppage.
Eric R.
I think by this point people know my political stripes from various postings. That being said, I have no real problem with the closing of the political forums here at TrekRPGNet, mainly because most of them fell down to entrenched stances and no real attempt to either persuade or to listen to other opinions. Then again, this is true of 90+% of political discussions...
The one point in favour of re-opening the political discussions here is merely one derived from studies I have seen over the past 2-3 years. With the rise in the use of the internet and the expansion of cable channels here in the United States, one would assume that most people would access a wider number of sites and channels, thus hearing more variant points of view. Sadly it seems the oppisite has happened. Nationwide people have been actually restricting the sites they visit, the stations they listen to, the channels they watch, the columnists they read. More different site, etc., are being visited, but most people find ones that fit with their view on the world and more or less restrict themselves to these agreeable sites. The result is a massive amount of "information polarization", a constant reinforcement of one's own beliefs, and thus greater levesl of entrenchment and less likelihood of compromise. Since TrekRPGNet has a fair cross-section of points-of-view it served as a place to air such views to those who might otherwise not normally see them. However, there is the matter of civility and, in the end, I believe that trumps matters.
There are dozens, nay, hundreds of sites where one may air political views. There is also the waking world. These are appropriate fora for such discussions. If it were possible to open discussions with a "Discuss Only; Do Not Abuse, Insult, or Message Flood" proviso, then we might be able to re-open such discussions. Barring that, this is a site with a different purpose. Admittedly about 1/4 of all of my postings have come from the political threads and I truly hope that I never insulted anyone with my postings, although I know that inadvertently I probably have.
Ultimately, freedom of speech does not equate to the ability to say whatever one wants at any time or in any location. One is not allowed to yell "FIRE!" in a movie theatre just to see what will happen nor to discuss sexual acts with pre-schoolers; these are limits to free speech, but necessary ones. Here the limits have been imposed due to overly-heated postings. That, too, may be seen as appropriate. One would hope that the spirit of Star Trek would pull us together rather than to have the political wranglings force us apart.
So, discuss away a bit further from here. e-mail me or leave me a private message if you find something you think would be of interest or you think might change my mind on a given political topic. The free exchange of ideas will continue, but civility is also important. City, civility, civilization -- the notion of how we are supposed to conduct ourselves in concert, as opposed to solo acts.
Pax :)
"the United Federation of Planets circa 2161-2378:"
Hum, 2161, interesting date since you left out the dates for Enterprise that other heated source of debate.
I just picked the founding of the Federation arbitrarily - the politics of pre-Federation are quite different, but of course equally on topic. However, it made the sentence unweildy and was irrelevant to the point I was making. I like Enterprise.
As do I my friend, as do I
Just adding my 2 centimes here ...
Because it is much less ugly here? I must say, I'd be hard pressed to find political topics handled in a more constructive way than here. Sure, there was a bit of mud slinging now and then. However, most posters here are rather well behaved, and many answers showed remarkable intelligence and culture.Quote:
Originally posted by AslanC
There are plenty of places on the web to go argue poltics, why bring that ugliness here?
Of course, YMMV, but I must say that I learnt a lot from the political threads here, and even if I often disagreed with what was posted, I miss those now that they're gone. It's like seing the truth with both eyes, and then being left with only one eye: my country's media. Which are of course biased, as any media in this world. Sure, I could find other places for political discussions ... it's just that I'd rather stick here :) .
That said, I fully understand Don's reasons and ruling and will of course obey it :) . But I do miss the PTs ;) .
As a frequent (and particularly biting) contributor to the political threads, and someone who ALSO misses them, I say...
*points to unusually sharp canine teeth*
Still got 'em. Not using 'em here hasn't dulled them a whit.
While it was fun tearing into my opponents, ripping off great chunks of flesh and gulping them down like a famished T-Rex... :D
It wasn't necessary. And if it keeps the many excellent posters we have here, then let the topic stay closed until the universe burns out.
Because this forum is here for Trek and TrekRPG, (and occasional merriment) not political polemicizing (is that a word?)
Ya never touched me, First, ya hear me? Never!
:)
Freedom of speech does not apply in a private forum... whether TV, radio or web BBS.
Quote:
Originally posted by Eric R.
Don, has provided a wonderful forum, a forum for us to express ourselves, and I mean no disrespect to him and the effort that is TrekRPG, but he provided a free forum, in doing so he created a communitty for free speech. but for almost two months it has not been. Out of respect we have honored that but recently it has troubled me that we have not been able to express ourselves, to talk opennly and freely even if it is good old fashion mud slinging. The people actually involved in it are never the ones who really complien its the lurkers who just "can't help themsleves" from clicking on the thread.
This, my, country was built so that people could do that. curtailing of any speech is wrong for whatever reason. Don, I say agian this is your site, but we have been its soul and in closing political threads you damaged that soul, the forum of free and open discussion the free exchange of ideas and frankly stances has been stopped.
I have not been considered too radical here, pretty middle of the road, people don't too often counter my arguments (becuase they are usally tight and well put I like to think) or express respectful disagrement. So perhaps my opening of this topic is coming from the right person.
Open the Political Threads again.
Everyone else consider this thread a petitiion, if you want the ability to openly discuss World Affairs and politics again say so and say it load.
This message has been removed on request by the
poster
Another messageboard that I frequent(not my own) has suspended all political threads permanently. They just have a link to the CNN Forums to discuss politics. They do the same with Religion.
Smart that.Quote:
Originally posted by Lt Cmdr Matt
Another messageboard that I frequent(not my own) has suspended all political threads permanently. They just have a link to the CNN Forums to discuss politics. They do the same with Religion.
Aw crumbs, Ramage, why did you go and make me agree with you like that!?;)Quote:
Originally posted by Ramage
Ultimately, freedom of speech does not equate to the ability to say whatever one wants at any time or in any location. One is not allowed to yell "FIRE!" in a movie theatre just to see what will happen nor to discuss sexual acts with pre-schoolers; these are limits to free speech, but necessary ones. Here the limits have been imposed due to overly-heated postings. That, too, may be seen as appropriate. One would hope that the spirit of Star Trek would pull us together rather than to have the political wranglings force us apart.
Remember, You'll never win any argument about Religon or Politics.
I think Don is well with in his rights to put a moritorium on the Ploitical threads. You may not like it but hey, It's his place. We're just visiting here.
as a side note, lets examine where the word "POLITICS" comes from.
Poli from the Greek "Poly", meaning "Many"
And Tics, which are small, bloodsucking insects.
You tell me