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That'll require me getting a copy--my FLGS keeps selling out and Decipher hasn't sent me any review copies yet.Quote:
Originally posted by E W Dawson
At any rate, hopefully Don will post his review of the product.
Even so the preference is that I farm out the reviews for other people; it's been brought to my attention that I may have a conflict of interest in reviewing said products, even ones I didn't work on.
Well, I don't know about that. I paid $30 CDN (same price as SOM) for L5R and 39.95 for the 2nd Ed only a year ago. Both books are considerably bigger then 96-pages. Has inlflation gone up that much? Supplements now cost almost as much as the corbooks themselves, with not that much increase in quality, sometimes even less. Personally I think the gaming companies need to re-evaluate their pricing strategies, sooner-or-later they will increase themselves into oblivion. No other type of book (novel, text, etc.) has seen this type of increase.Quote:
Originally posted by Lt. Dade
Also, really, a 96-page full-color hardcover book at $19.95 is a bargain. I wish books could be cheaper, boys and girls, I really do, but there are just not enough role-players buying books in America to make cheaper books possible. Game companies would go out of business (and, in fact, have).
I have none :) well ok, I have one...no PDF version of the included character sheet yet :)
I found the book highly entertaining and extremely useful. Of course, I pretty much run a Starfleet campaign only (if I want to do "Civilians In Spaaaaaace!" I have d20 Traveller for that), so it's fairly certain I would find this to my liking.
Now to plot and plan how to get my mitts on Starships...
Allen
I for one always trust you to give your honest opinion. Even on stuff you've sweated over yourself.Quote:
Originally posted by Don Mappin
That'll require me getting a copy--my FLGS keeps selling out and Decipher hasn't sent me any review copies yet.
Even so the preference is that I farm out the reviews for other people; it's been brought to my attention that I may have a conflict of interest in reviewing said products, even ones I didn't work on.
I just got the book, and on a brief skimming am quite pleased with it. And a bargain, too. :)
Now waiting for the Starships book. (Barely) Patiently.:D
Your honest reviews of the Trek and LotR screen pretty much prove that your reviews are unbiased.Quote:
Originally posted by Don Mappin
Even so the preference is that I farm out the reviews for other people; it's been brought to my attention that I may have a conflict of interest in reviewing said products, even ones I didn't work on.
Keep 'em coming please.
Phantom said:
I do know about it. I'm not sure what "increase in quality" you mean you're expecting from supplements. Page count? The L5R books were pretty wonderfully priced, I have to agree, but that's not necessarily a fair example. Those books weren't full-color, they were core rulebooks (which sell better than any supplement as a general rule) and, in the 2nd Edition of L5R, those books were divided in order to recoup costs, I expect.Quote:
Well, I don't know about that. I paid $30 CDN (same price as SOM) for L5R and 39.95 for the 2nd Ed only a year ago. Both books are considerably bigger then 96-pages. Has inlflation gone up that much? Supplements now cost almost as much as the corbooks themselves, with not that much increase in quality, sometimes even less. Personally I think the gaming companies need to re-evaluate their pricing strategies, sooner-or-later they will increase themselves into oblivion. No other type of book (novel, text, etc.) has seen this type of increase.
Here's the other thing: Using other types of books for comparison purposes isn't germane. Production costs of novels, as an object, are not consistently rising. Text books have substantially different pricing models than other books and sell based on different criteria than an RPG book. Let's use that as the example, though. Why do textbooks cost so much? Because so few of them are expected to sell, but the books are expected to meet a certain level of quality including, but not limited to, full-color presentations, durable bindings and paper stock, and thorough, reliable illustrations and writing. RPG books are held to a similar standard, but can expect to sell far (read: far, far) fewer copies than any text book.
I can't say how many copies of the SOM Decipher expects to sell. I can't say how many copies the average gamer thinks any RPG book sells, either. I feel comfortable asserting, though, that Decipher knows better than I do how their audience operates and that most gamers would overestimate the copies sold of any RPG book.
RPG books which aim for lower production costs and cheaper presentation do not sell more copies and do not recoup their costs more reliably than quality presentations (like the SOM). Given the scarce difference in presentation versus sales, assuming they're experiencing the same market as most game companies right now, I applaude Decipher for maintaining their dedication to quality products that are both handsome (full-color) and durable (hardcover).
I hate to admit it, but I put off buying quite a few of the old LUG books until it was too late. Why? Because I wasn't in a hurry for vaguely Trek-ish art and topics that I only might get around to using someday. The new books are so pretty that I'm compelled to get them. That prettiness results in a greater capacity to make use of their licenses with handsome starship presentations, terrific Trek-like spreads such as the SOM's tricorder page, and the great species layouts. That usefulness means that I don't regret my purchase, either.
Yes, the price of RPG books have gone up. That sucks, but quality has gone up with them. Just a few years ago, it would have been unheard of to see so many full-color supplements for an RPG. That such supplements are still within the comfortable buying price of about twenty bucks (which is determined by the marketplace, not by my wallet, believe me) is a relief.
Should the gaming companies "re-evaluate their pricing strategies?" Constantly. Many do. The game company I work for does. That pricing strategies don't shift to conform to just those factors which are visible on the surface shouldn't indicate a clear flaw in the design, it should indicate that there are many factors below the surface which must be evaluated as well.
For the record, most RPG companies that I know of do not base their pricing strategies on a "Get Rich Point." The hinge which most pricing models turn on is the "Break Even Point." Think about that. You can (and should!) vote with your wallets in the marketplace. You should also know that not buying a book that you really want because you'd like to make a point is more likely to sink an RPG company than it is to simply affect change. I'm being a bit melodramatic here, sure, and if you think the price of the SOM is too high, you shouldn't buy it. You should keep in mind, though, that not buying it isn't going to bring prices down in the RPG marketplace, not by much at least. These books are very often as cheap as they can feasibly be already.
So, yeah, costs suck, but let's bear in mind that they suck for the company, too.
word,
Will
Ok, I was comparing apples to oranges. Here is an example a little closer to target. The new SW 2nd Ed, how would the gaming company in question justify the, almost, $10 increase in price for essentially the same, not much new stuff added, book in just over a year? "Break even" point? If this is the case I have to get into the industry.
Phantom said:
Wizards of the Coast is not the average game company. Let me get that out of the way. :)Quote:
Ok, I was comparing apples to oranges. Here is an example a little closer to target. The new SW 2nd Ed, how would the gaming company in question justify the, almost, $10 increase in price for essentially the same, not much new stuff added, book in just over a year? "Break even" point? If this is the case I have to get into the industry.
This is an interesting example, and in order to fit it into my argument, I have to bring up a couple of other factors. First, fair warning: I don't price RPG books myself, but I have some experience with the method sometimes used. Further, I don't have any insider information about Wizards of the Coast, so what I say should be regarded as estimation or even speculation, not fact. There are a fair number of variables in any pricing scheme (most obviously: the number of units that will, in fact, sell), and there are as many approaches to the business of games as there are methods of play within the games. I have to generalize for the sake of this argument; know that I'm doing it.
Okay, so, the flip side to my pricing scheme model -- wherein decreasing cost will not necessarily increase copies sold -- is the strange feature of the gaming audience, which is also a collecting audience, and may buy certain books for the sake of complete-ness. That means that a certain number of copies of popular game lines (or licenses, sometimes) will be bought just out of love, habit, devotion, general interest or whatever. I, for example, have gone out of my way to buy every Castle Falkenstein book (and the Hellboy RPG) even though I haven't had the chance to run Falkenstein in years and probably won't ever run the Hellboy RPG per se. So, on the one hand, a certain number of people will buy the Star Wars RPG regardless of whether or not they have the first one, whether or not they plan to play it in the immediate future, etc. Those people, hopefully, would not be disuaded by a $10 price increase.
On the other hand, the Revised Star Wars book does include new material, is full-color, hardcover and just generally enormous. It's a pretty quality book and I would have bought it outright if I hadn't already bought the first Star Wars d20 book. So, as a product by itself, outside of context, the game isn't a terrible value. Hopefully, in the long run, this book will come to be regarded as the Star Wars d20 book and, in that regard, is probably worth the money. Unfortunately, I doubt that the book was so sterling and desirable that it managed to escape its context. That is, everyone remembers the first printing and might be a bit sour on the idea of buying another book to correct the first one.
So, to account for sales figures that might even be lower than the first printing and the increased cost of revising the book and comissioning new art and so forth, the book presumably needs to be more expensive in order to recoup its losses (and possibly the losses of the first printing) or in order for it to reasonably hit its Break Even Point within its sales life. Fewer copies sold means the book has to cost more (at retail), not less, so that it can make its money back. How is this effective, because, remember, some folks will buy that Star Wars book regardless of how much it costs. Enough folks buying a book like that mean than you and I don't have to. (Yeah, the necessity of the revised core rulebook for Star Wars was a shame and a disappointment; I recently had the chance to get one at a WotC store for 50% off ... and didn't. I thought I would, but since I don't know when I'll run the game, I decided even another $20 was too much.)
This nutty relationship between demand and pricing doesn't make a lot of sense, but it's the nasty truth of RPGs. Sales do not necessarily reflect greatness in this business, and prices do not necessarily spur sales. Some RPGs just barely make enough money to make printing RPG books possible, much less viable.
At the same time, let's remember this: Wizards didn't get rich off of a $10 price increase on Star Wars books. Wizards has gone through rounds and rounds of layoffs. I can't assert that the two or related, but I can say that you shouldn't presume game companies are making a lot of money by gouging you when a lot of folks are losing their jobs. By way of example, I've made more money working for Starbucks than I do in the game business.
To keep me on topic, would folks rather have ten more black-and-white pages of a Star Trek Roleplaying Game book in, probably, softcover, or would you rather have all the terrific colors and schematics and a hardcover over ten fewer pages? By way of example, pulling one book off of my game shelf, I find a 112-page softcover, black-and-white book from Dream Pod 9 that retailed for $19.95. Same price. Is it the same value?
No offense to Ken Hite, but I'll accept getting nine fewer pages of his stellar work if it means his game designs will get to wear pretty clothes by George Vasilakos. Even better, I like the idea that Ken Hite can write articles like the SOM's tricorder primer knowing that they'll look good in the end.
That's enough out of me. Please remember that a lot of other game industry types know a lot more about this stuff than I do, and that my theories and experiences cannot apply to all game companies. I don't speak for Decipher.
word,
Will
As this is taking the topic afield this will be my last point on these lines.Quote:
Originally posted by Lt. Dade
[B
On the other hand, the Revised Star Wars book does include new material, is full-color, hardcover and just generally enormous. It's a pretty quality book and I would have bought it outright if I hadn't already bought the first Star Wars d20 book. So, as a product by itself, outside of context, the game isn't a terrible value. Hopefully, in the long run, this book will come to be regarded as the Star Wars d20 book and, in that regard, is probably worth the money. Unfortunately, I doubt that the book was so sterling and desirable that it managed to escape its context. That is, everyone remembers the first printing and might be a bit sour on the idea of buying another book to correct the first one.
[/B]
Not trying to arguementive (hard to believe, eh :D) but you are telling me that a 20% (approx) increase in price is not effecting the profit margin of a RPG core book? I find that hard to believe. And the SW corbook doesn't include that much more then the 1st Ed. It maybe a 'pretty' book but all you are paying the extra for is a few pages of Ep II info. Anyway, as you say, they will not be getting my money...Not because I am upset over the increase, I just can't afford it (nor justiy it, even if I was playing as much as I did.)
Hi again,
I think we've done a pretty good job at keeping this on track, since this is all in support of my argument that the SOM is a fine value, all things considered. Since we're in danger of getting astray, though, I'll restrain this message to just a clarification of my previous post, at your request, Phantom.
Phantom said:
Well, first of all, I can't say that a 20% increase in price wouldn't affect the profit margin of an RPG book. That's a broad statement. In regards to the Revised Star Wars book, that 20% price increase might not be making more (or much more) money than the sales of the first printing. I mean, let's say they sell 21% fewer copies of the Revised Edition; now they're making the same amount of money as they did on the last book, even though the new book costs more (both to buy and to produce). The question is: how many people aren't buying the Revised Edition because they already have the first one? How many aren't buying it because of the price increase? How many aren't buying it out of spite? If that totals up to a large enough group of people who don't buy the book, then the 20% price increase might not translate to an increase in profit. I can't say what the actual sales figures or costs of production were, though. I can only surmise a few of the possible factors that are considered when pricing a book like that and speculate at possible outcomes.Quote:
... you are telling me that a 20% (approx) increase in price is not effecting the profit margin of a RPG core book? I find that hard to believe. And the SW corbook doesn't include that much more then the 1st Ed.
So, to relate this to the SOM, let's look at what you might consider when deciding whether or not to purchase the book:
"$19.95 is more money than I can afford to pay for a game book."
This point cannot be debated. Only the consumer is responsible for his or her own budget. Only you should be spending your own money.
"$19.95 is more than I want to pay for a book like this. I want to send the signal to the manufacturer that this sort of book isn't what I want."
You're probably right not to buy it, then.
"If I were running a Starfleet game, I'd get this book for $19.95. I'm sure that I'll use it later, so I'll buy it later."
This is smart shopping. You should also consider, as a consumer, that you're voting the same as the person above when you do this as far as sales figures are concerned. (It's my opinion that this is where some of the "collectibility-style" RPG sales come from: people buying a book right now that they know they will use later if only to pledge their approval or their loyalty to the creators. I cannot stress enough that no customer should be expected to behave this way, that it is bad business (IMO) for a customer to feel obliged to purchase something they don't need. (It is good advertising, though, so infer what you will, I guess.) You, as a customer, should only buy products that you approve of, or else your vote is miscast. In RPGs, though, there isn't always a "later." When you decide it's time for you to buy a book, the manufacturer might already be out of business.
"$19.95 is highway robbery. I'm getting ripped off. If I don't buy this book, the next one will be cheaper."
While only you can accurately assess a book's value to you, this logic is false in our strange business. At least sometimes. Fewer sales mean that future products may be more expensive in order to recoup the costs of production within the brief sales window. See the D&D Player's Handbook vs. the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting; a book sold to a smaller audience must cost more to pay for itself if both books are to have equal production values.
The SOM continues the production standards of the Core Rulebooks, but will sell necessarily fewer copies (presumably, supplements typically do). To make that possible for future supplements to continue the production standards of the Core Rulebooks, I will continue buying Star Trek RPG books. Everyone has to make their own decisions, of course.
word,
Will
I think you hit the nail on the head there. Core rule books are often underpriced to attract new players - this is especially true of games from the big companies like WotC and White Wolf. Then, once a player is "nabbed" they are more likely to buy the supplements, which have a higher price margin. I understand the original releases of D&D 3e only just made a profit per unit, and that was because Hasbro's shareholders required it!Quote:
Originally posted by Lt. Dade
While only you can accurately assess a book's value to you, this logic is false in our strange business. At least sometimes. Fewer sales mean that future products may be more expensive in order to recoup the costs of production within the brief sales window. See the D&D Player's Handbook vs. the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting; a book sold to a smaller audience must cost more to pay for itself if both books are to have equal production values.
Regarding price rises, quality is part of it, but that's also the result of better layout and editing tools. Paper and ink have increased significantly in price over the last ten years, but the main factor is that game designers have finally started charging what they're worth... Most of the early companies ran off large amounts of capital, and the operators had no idea how to run a business - they lost money hand over fist. This changed in the early nineties when the CCG market cleared out those who couldn't hack it. Once things settled down, the survivors were a lot more careful. Ryan Dancey (the definitive suit/gamer mutant crossbreed) reckons d20 is having the same effect.
Think about it, how much would you expect to spend on a 128 page coffee table book? That's what these guys are producing - and with a very limited sales run (ca. 2-5000) which really puts the price per unit up.
Another factor to consider is that the market has changed since d20 arrived. There's no such thing as an "evergreen" product (think "Queen of the Spiders") anymore - most books have a shelflife of about three months before buyers lose interest and start looking for the next one. You sell less, and have to charge more because of it, to pay for the writer of the next one if nothing else.
So, out of curiosity, who do you work for Lt. Dade? For the record, I used to work for ProFantasy...
Campaign Cartographer 2 (plus all the additions) rock!Quote:
Originally posted by Imagus
So, out of curiosity, who do you work for Lt. Dade? For the record, I used to work for ProFantasy...
I would say that it is definitely worth getting.
Cons: I am making a slight retraction to a previous post and decided that I might need to rework a couple of those ship classes. For the most part they are pretty good, except the torpedoes are too high. They needed to increase the rating in order to decrease the amount, but I mayu just live with them and use them in my games.
Pros: Very good book. I particularly like the Ship Renown and the new professional abilities and the new rules for buying a "tour" of duty at the beginning instead of getting advancements and having to go through by hand and add skills. I am also going to take these rules, and modify them slightly.
When Ensign Ro went to tactical school she probably gained more experience, obviously. So what I was thinking, is that if your character goes back and takes a specialized course, it is good for one advancement package. I don't know how long it would take for her to complete the course(s) but after she returned they would have gained an advancement and been giving those skills.
For the record, Ken Hite's State of the Industry feature of his Out of the Box column (at Gamer's Realm ) suggests that the Star Wars d20 book did not sell a terrific number of copies, (depending on your expectations).
Imagus said:
That's excellent! ProFantasy's done some terrific work. A fair number of our authors send us maps made using CC2 and such. I work at Atlas, by the way, and freelance around a bit.Quote:
So, out of curiosity, who do you work for Lt. Dade? For the record, I used to work for ProFantasy...
You all should call me Will.
Cmdr. Matt, you're absolutely right about those tour of duty packages. I could've stood to have a dozen more of those included in the book! Those will make advanced character that much easier and more coherent, I dare say. I hope the internet community here takes advantage of the precedent and starts offering up new Advancement packages, too!
word,
Will
No problem there, in fact I came up with some packages on my own even before this book came out back in November. Good thing I know the book was already written and "at the printers" by that time or I would be calling legal services :DQuote:
Originally posted by Lt. Dade
Cmdr. Matt, you're absolutely right about those tour of duty packages. I could've stood to have a dozen more of those included in the book! Those will make advanced character that much easier and more coherent, I dare say. I hope the internet community here takes advantage of the precedent and starts offering up new Advancement packages, too!
word,
Will [/B]
http://forum.trek-rpg.net/showthread...&threadid=6140
My question is that it is such a blindingly obvious solution for Advanced Charcter development why was it not a part of the original core rules? Was there a feeling that to do so would make the new system resemble ICON too much?
As to the book
Pros: Good selection of new races, (like the Tibs being back a personal favorite), agree with all comments of the starships (good and bad), the equipment selection was nice and the medicine sections really above par.
Cons: The Standard Operations Chapter, I am in the middle of the road on the military vs Exploration debate but the whole tone of the chapter which more or less seemed to go out of its way to land solidly on the Exploration side of things frankly turned me off from the whole chapter (though I wont ignore the aprts I liked). Of many Net picks the Captain and 1st Officer are the ONLY personnel allowed to give the command fire now this P#ssed me Off in a academic sense as I can state easily the number of times Scotty, Sulu, Chekov, Troi, Crusher, Kira, Worf, gave the command the correct phase should have been the Bridge Commanding Watch Officer but I guess that would have made Starfleet too Military.:rolleyes:
If this tone becomes more persistent I will have to consider going off on my own way and stick with updating LUG and FASA material.