My 4th Age game (revisited)

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Originally posted by Sarge
Sounds like your bad guys have good plans to keep the elves and men out of their hair. But what are they going to do about the dwarves? Just hope that they stay underground and don't interfere? No, there has to be at least a contingency plan. Maybe the Khazad don't make their presence felt often, but when they do, people get hurt.

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Well I figured since Sauron didn't why should Herumor ;)

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Sauron was known to covet mithril. Maybe the agents of Herumor discovered Sauron's stash and are using it against the dwarves. They could sneak into Aglarond, leave a few chunks to be discovered, and try to engineer a rift between the dwarves and Rohan. The dwarves can be counted on to covet the mithril, and a Wormtongue kind of agent could try to convince the Rohirrim that the mithril belongs to Rohan.

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Hmmmm...

"...gems and crystals and veins of precious ore glint in the polished walls; and the light glows through folded marbles, shell-like, translucent as the living hands of Queen Galadriel."

From Gimli's description of Aglarond
The Two Towers III 8 The Road to Isengard

Interesting idea to say the least. But what of the Dwarves in Moria and the Blue Mountains. What to keep them occupied?

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Y'know, I just made this up as I was typing, but I like it a lot. It's just the kind of plot that PCs could be expected to counter.

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Agreed. A very strong idea to say the least. Not sure how I could weave it into the adventures, but it does have a merit still. Could almost be a background plot.

Well, -ë is typically a feminine ending (with a number of exceptions for names like Finwë, Ingwë, Orometc.) and -0 and -on are typically masculine endings.

-wë is an OLD root word for 'person'. That's the trouble with Tolkien's names in the texts, they don't all derive from the same language tradition or the same period of evolution in the languages! Makes it interesting, and real, but annoying in times like this.

And after all, lomë IS a word for night/dusk, it doesn't end in another vowel that would need to be changed to a gender specific replacemtn, so theoritically you could leave it alone.

I don't think you have to, but if you wanted to make it REAL masculine, you might consider Wírilomo. *shrug*

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Originally posted by AslanC
On the matter of Wírilomë.

Well I would make his definately male, since I envison him a bit like Professor Snape in the Harry Potter movies.

Any idea on how to masculinize the name? You seem to be a wizard (pardon the pun) at the languages :)

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I don't know that you would have to change anything. After all, Voronwë, Finwë, Olwë and Elwë are all masculine.

Well Wirlomo was were I was heading... or Wirlomir...

the ae ending does sound very femenine to be sure.

AlsanC:

I had a similar idea for a 4th age chronicle. Basically one of the silmaris was uncovered and all hell broke loose.

Currently I am thinking of how much of an impact should that have upon Middle Earth. I had this crazy idea of Elves returning from Valinor, of the curse of Feanor, and Melkor making another appearance.

Basically some kind of powerful but corrupt magician/loremaster learns of the silmaris (or of rumours) and begins his secret campaign to raise an army reclaim the silmaris, and so on....

Well, I can certainly see the Elves being interested in such an event. Maybe a small force would be dispatched from the Undieing Lands, at the very least contact would be re-established with the few Elves that stayed behind telling them to keep the old MkI eyeball open on local events.

Interesting idea to say the least.

I myself am leaning now away from the Silmaril story line, but might need it still for the whole free Melkor from the void angle.

I myself don't see elves returning from Valinor, but YMMV.

Certainly it wouldn't be absurd or ridiculous.

Let us know how it turns out :)

Melkor returning eh? How would you go about accomplishing that?

.. if the Valar, or even Eru, stood by and watched anyone free Melkor from the Void. Melkor would be so completely overwhelming, particularily in a post 3rd Age world, that only the intervention of the Valar or Eru could stop him, and probably only at great cost to Middle Earth (lands broken, etc.)

One of the (discarded, I believe) notions that Tolkien had was that Melkor would return at the end of the world and Turin would return as well to slay him.

I can certainly see a plot to release Melkor, but I can't really see it succeeding.

Fwiw

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Originally posted by Manveru
.. if the Valar, or even Eru, stood by and watched anyone free Melkor from the Void. Melkor would be so completely overwhelming, particularily in a post 3rd Age world, that only the intervention of the Valar or Eru could stop him, and probably only at great cost to Middle Earth (lands broken, etc.)

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Intersting point. See below.

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One of the (discarded, I believe) notions that Tolkien had was that Melkor would return at the end of the world and Turin would return as well to slay him.

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Again another neat idea, he had so many eh? :) I should get around to reading letters at some point.

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I can certainly see a plot to release Melkor, but I can't really see it succeeding.

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Bingo! Now we are one the same page. :) If Melkor were to be freed, they the world would end in a heart beat. I mean come on, this is Melkor.

No I certainly don't want them to succeed, just the threat of it. Maybe an aspect of Morgoth's power could come through, you know a shade or splinter of him, but certainly not to whole beast. That would be insane.

Think more along the lines of Cuthulu, if he ever shows up the game is over, but his followers are constantly tapping into tiny amounts of his power.

Thanks for the info on Turin BTW

Have you ever run into any references regarding the fact that Melkor had permanently bound himself to the physical plane, dispersing his thought through all of Arda and introducing a "Morgothian" element in the the fabric of creation?

This is the source of Sorcery, and the Rings of Power actually tap in a bit to some of that, because what they do is essentially 'unnatural'.

Check these out the files I attached, they should help I think.

And check out as well the Suite101 articles by Michael Martinez. Although I don't necessarily agree 100% with all of his answers, most of them I do, and almost all of them are well articulated, and he asks GREAT questions. Always come away from him thinking.

http://www.suite101.com/articles.cfm/tolkien

And download his Parma Endorion, good stuff.

Wow thanks for that stuff!

Michael Martinez is the guy who's article on the New Shadow got me started with this campaign :)

I will have much to read this week :)

Now I am second geussing my Silmaril thoughts...

Do I need it?

Is it important?

Grrrr... This is driving me nuts and I only have 2 weeks to prepare for this :(

It seems I like my idea of Herumor and stuff, and the attempt to liberate Morgoth from the Void.

Do I really need the whole Silmaril angle or is it too much?

help?

... the only thing the Silmarils had to do with Morgoth is that they're the reason why the Noldor came after him. *shrug*

He was cast BODILY out into the Void, because he had lost the capacity to unbind his spirit from the physical plane (in order to increase his power over Arda). He had purposefully materialized his being into the physical plane of Arda.

So the Valar cut off his hands and feet, chained him up good with Aule's help, and threw him out, basically.

But his thought still echoed throught Arda, and his element was still insinuated into the fabric of Arda, and could not be undone without unmaking the entire world. So everything in Arda (except for Valinor!) has this taint within it. But even so, Morgoth's taint was merely a vaneer over Arda, the Secret Fire of Illuvatar still resides at the core of everything Arda is, and so Morgoth could only taint, discolour, but not coopt the reality of Arda.

So ... you don't need Silmarils at all. And anyway, one of the gems is in the sky, one was cast into the deep flames of the world (which it might have survived!, but who's going to go get it, apart from one of the Powers?), and the other was cast into the Sea, Ulmo's domain (good luck getting it back from HIM! ;-).

Yours is a tricky premise, because if bringing Morgoth back to Arda is possible to do for a 'mortal' Sorceror, would it not have been possible for Sauron? Either he could do it, and chose not to (or dared not to! knowing better than to confront the Valar so directly! ;-).

I do think that any villian in your story that attempts to do this would have to have some REALLY amazing thing in his hands to allow him attempt this. Opening the Walls of Night (which separate Arda from the Void) would probably NOT be a meager task, particularily for a non-Ainur. Even Sauron and the Balrogs did not flee beyond the Walls of Night (that we know of) to avoid the Valar during the War of Wrath, but instead hid in ME.

Another possibility to consider, which would be nearly as devestating as bringing Morgoth back to Arda, is that some Sorceror seeks to use Ungoliant in some fashion, or she use him (less likely, she didn't seem to like working with people ;-). Her fate is not clear at all in the texts, except that she fled south and east of Beleriand in the beginning of the First Age (Tolkien mused with the idea that Earendil slew her after he took the Silmaril to Valinor, but this is not canon). And she was a match for Morgoth at the height of her power (after sucking the life from the Two Trees right before the First Age). I suspect she would probably weaken over the ages, but she's still Shelob's mama. 8^[

Sorry if this throws a wrench at ya .. ;-)

Too much information... brain expanding at dangerous levels... can't tie shoes anymore... old knowledge being pushed out in favour of new...

;)

Wow that is a lot to consider for sure.

The more I think about it, the more I find myself wanting to steer away from the BIG epic and do more of what the 4th Age should be, Man. The main enemy should be man.

I think the Morgothian cult is the way to go, with Herumor gathering powerful items to him to use in his fell sorcery.

So basically the choices I have to make are does he use the Orcs or not.

And then there were the Quenuhuine. I love the idea of them, but not sure if i should use them or not.

As for the regular Elves, I figure most of them are heading across the sea now, so very few remain. Certainly a few at Rivendell, some in Ithilian and a few in Greenwood. Most though are in Lindon, making the journey.

Now the Dwarves and Hobbits are the next detail to think on.

Certainly I feel Tolkien never really thought about the eventual fate of these races. The Dwarves I think sort of get a passing over in the whole end of the 3rd Age. What happens to them? Why would the Elves leave the picture but the Dwarves remain. So I am left not sure what to do with them. D they involve themselves in the affairs of men, or do they quietly disappear into the annals of history?

The Shire has expanded, which is a sign that the Hobbits are not on the decline to be sure. Now that said they certainly wouldn't get involved in the affiars of men... So again I am left without a sure course as to what to do with them as a general rule.

Just a quick note to everyone thanking them for their input and guidence.

I know I ask a lot of questions, but i really do appreciate it greatly. You all rock :)