The Far Future

Just a couple of quick questions here. Not really on the subject of Comm/Socialism in the Fed. but anyway...

Alot of people here have mentioned that the Taurhai would probably takeover a good chunk of the Romulan Empire!?!?! Now, as a fan of the Romulans I ask WHY? If the Feds can ward off the Borg I think the Romulans can hold off the Taurhai...They've been doing it for about a hundred years when they return as a power in the series.

Also, how would the races like the Krenim figure into anything that happens in the Alpha Quad?

The "far future" of the "Star Trek" universe
is probably going to be *very* strange.

At some point, the technological barriers
preventing the faithful replication of living
things are going to come down.

At some point, Soong's positronic brain
technology is going to become reliable and
widely understood.

Non-positronic (holographic) artifical
intelligence is going to develop rapidly.
The software that controls a hologram should
have no trouble controlling a robotic body.

At some point, nanotechnology is going to
cease to be a laboratory curiosity (with
limited biomedical applications). If the
Federation tangles with the Borg, the growth
of its understanding of nanotechnology will,
in all likelihood, be further accelerated.

The Federation has a widespread fondness for "self-improvement." Given this handful
of technological loose ends (and I'm sure
there are others I've overlooked), its easy
to envision a drift towards "trans-human"
existence of some kind (without Borg-style
loss of individuality) in "Star Trek's"
not-too-distant future. The Eugenics Wars
might have cast a long shadow, but I just
can't see their influence lasting *forever*.

Unlike the Collective, which assimilates its victims, the Taurhai are far more creative thinkers. The Romulans - for all their bravado - are inferior to the Taurhai both technologically and intellectually (at least in my opinion).

The Taurhai haven't opened up a can of whupass on the Romulan Star Empire as yet because they are biding their time. The Romulans are facing ever-growing internal struggles to "keep it together," but the reunification movement is growing stronger every day.

Once the Taurhai begin to smell the scent of death on the Empire, then they will begin to close in for the kill.

The Borg are relentless, throwing drones and ships at a situation until only one side remains. The Taurhai are far more strategic... they realize how devious the Romulans are and are aware that their tactics need to take that into account.

In my various campaigns, the Romulan Senate begins to buckle from the strain of holding together and empire coming apart at the seams. Realizing that the Romulans are in need of "assistance," the Taurhai Unity sweeps in and, after a heninous, drawn-out war, occupies Romulus and Remus as well as various other planets and star systems.

Would the Federation or the Klingon Empire assist the Romulans? Would the Senate and/or the Proconsul even ask for their help? Uncertain.

Will the Romulan Star Empire fall? Yes... at least in my campaign. When? Very soon.

mactavish out.

P.S. Just imagine a Romulan Maquis-style rebellion fighting against the Taurhai conquerers with the assistance/support of the UFP, the Klingons, and/or the Cardassians. That's just all kinds of fun!

Sounds like a neat campaign. Is it a Romulan game, or is this happening in the background?

I do, however, have to say that I personally don't agree with your line of thought...As interesting as it is. Reading the Way of D'era the Star Empire is still strong, only one problem sector they have to deal with. Sure the Senate is fractured along coalition lines and the in-fighting that goes with that. But, the one thing that all Romulans can understand is the preservation of the Empire. The Taurhai are a threat, yes. No more so then the Barbarian Hoards Rome had to deal with. The Empire will fall of course, all civilizations do at one time, but that time has not came yet for the Romulans.

There, having said that I would be interested in hearing how your game progresses. I'm sure the Romulans will go out with a bang.

I'd disagree with you mactavish, The Taurhai would face a united Romulan Empire if they'd attack. Its called a "Rally around the Flag effect" and occurs whenever a state is threatened by an outside threat. Maybe another Kligon alliance?

As for whether the Federation is communist or socialist, i'd say they are an enlightened socialist democracy. Communism would never occur in such a far flung empire, strains the bureaucracy and overall doesn't work very well. Look at Russia, Poland, all the ex-communist countries.

I am rather a pessimist so I see the Feds as rather snobbish, all those comments on the Ferengi and the various phrases spoken by individuals brought up by previous posts shows that.

All democracies(Feds are a democracy) are prone to demagogic subversions. The Greek Hitorian Thucydides shows this in his book "On Justice, Power and Human Nature". It doesn't matter how advanced a society is, certain things stay the same, people want power(alien or human). Subverting the feds ala Section 31 is a natural process of as the previous posts have put it decadence. And I agree, I'd like to see the feds collapse and a civil war erupt between idealists and realists.

Its my opinion anyone can disagree, I even welcome it http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif

Aedh-

As I alluded to in my post above, most Science Fiction - and especially Star Trek - is often a metaphor for the zeitgeist of the culture that produces it. (Look at all of the “Cold War” plotlines in TOS Trek.)

Note that this is neither positive nor negative. Sometimes this can be good, reflecting the hopes, dreams, and aspirations of a culture. Sometimes it can be bad, showing the fears, prejudices, and hatreds of a culture; one particularly egregious example is the 1930’s “Flash Gordon’s” “Ming the Merciless,” a thinly veiled metaphor for the “Yellow Peril” anti-Asian prejudice of the times.

I wonder if my earlier posts about the “far future of the Federation” are just a reflection of my worries and fears about the future of the United States? Does my viewpoint show up my fear of the "Ugly American factor," the censorship of “political correctness,” the increasing bureaucratization of the government, and the erosion of personal freedoms imposed by technology?

Also; I always considered the Bajor/Cardassia situation of DS9 to be a metaphor for the Middle East – the clashes of religions, the Arab/Israeli/Palestinian situation, the “wormhole” as a metaphor for oil (a newly discovered invaluable resource focuses superpower attention on a previously neglected backwater)…

The future of the UFP - what future?

If I take the drift of the DWS that the "UFP wants to return to pre-war ways" and the UFP behaviour after the first borg cube as a sign, by the 29th century the situation will be:

Earth is destroyed by whoever destroyed the UFP. Done so in a decap raid early in the war.

Andoria, Tellar and some other worlds form a trade and defence alliance (maybe even called the UFP) with a strong defensiv fleet and martial provess

Vulcan has isolated itself from the rest of the universe and retreated behind mine fields and defence drones

The Klingons, weakened by prolonged contact with the UFP have been conquered by the Romulans

Bajor and Cardassia form another strong, small trade and defensiv nation with the wormhole heavily guarded and frequent incursions from the Dominion

Orion / Breen / Ferengi pirats ply the spacelanes

Michael

Aedh-

Never thought about it in those terms, but historically I guess you have a point about the races being analoges. Fascinating.

As for the political system of the UFP. Why don't you ask a german http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif After all we let loose Marx and Lenin on this world and invented Socialism and Social Democrats (the real ones)

The UFP is quite similar to a GDR (East Germany) style socialism because:

The state owns all the heavy production maschinery (Replicators, ship docks etc)

Private ownership of single ships or single house private ventures (like Siskos) still is allowed

The state cares for schooling (good&free), medical care, housing and basic food in exchange for little to no productive work

You can vote but it doesn't change much since the UFP is one big bureaucracy

Social pressure to conform to a certain behaviour exists (mandatory counseling for anti-social behaviour[1])

A movement to get rid of money as a goal exists

It's a centrally controlled system.

Political parties still exist so it can't be a communism

Now, don't get me wrong. I found the GDR realisation of the system flawed, not the system itself. So the basic idea of the UFP is great. It's just that their "Gutmenschen" are overdoing it.


As a side note. The UdSSR member states and former WP states aren't trying to join the USA because they are bussy joining the European Union. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif If the USA wants to join to it's quite easy. Just tell the British that 1776 was a mistake and you have been talked into it by the French and their german lackeys. Voila - instant EU membership http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif


Michael

[1] What is anti-social? My grandfather would have considered Elvis Presley anti-social.



[This message has been edited by Michael Brinkhues (edited 06-11-2001).]

Klingons = Russia, Mongol Empire, Vikings, Zulus

Romulans = Roman Empire, Japan, China

Cardassians = Nazi Germany

Bajorans = Jews

Ferengi = Dutch in the Age of Exploration

Vulcans = Ancient Greeks, Modern Scandinavians

Andorians = ?

Tellarites = Scottish

Centaurans = Canadians

Betazoids = Irish

Bolians = British

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The Trekkie Formerly Known As Surak, AKA The Coch, Humble Creator of the Bwuutut and Mensaeans, Aba and Zwickau, and the Perseus Federation, Guy Who Still Hasn't Actually Played The Game, And Who Finally Decided To Use A Signature.

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Centaurans = Canadians
[/B]

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Uh, Cochrane...How did you come up with this? http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/confused.gif

Canadians = Centaurans

Irish = Betazoids

Ah Cochrane...as an Irish-Canadian...I don't feel particularily enamoured of ancient Greece, I am not fond of chocloate, do not have any telepathic powers and would appreciate it if everyone at my wedding wore clothes...so can you please explain those connections to me?

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Aslan Collas
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RPG_Trek; http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rpg-trek
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Ferengi Rule Of Acquisition #76: Every once in a while, declare peace. It confuses the hell out of your enemies.

Y'know, here is a can of worms, but has anyone noticed the resemblance between Federation prejudice against the Ferengi and certain historical prejudices?

I had a Russian friend who once said, "You know that the Ferengi are Jews, right?" He did not mean, of course, that the Ferengi resemble real Jews, any more than they resemble anyone else in the real world, but that they are the complete image of a lot of anti-Semitic stereotypes.

When you think about it, it makes a weird kind of sense. A lot of the alien races in Star Trek seem to based (loosely)on various Terran ethnic groups, as seen through the eyes of Middle American prejudices.

So, in the Cold War/TOS period you have the Russians (Klingons), Chinese (Romulans), Arabs (Orions), Germans (Tellarites),and Jews (Vulcans). The Federation stands in for the "Free World" generally, and so is fairly diverse and decentralized.

By the TNG and DS9 periods, American prejudices have changed slightly, and so have Star Trek races. So, you have the Russians (Cardassians), Chinese (Romulans), Jews (Ferengi), Americans (the Federation itself), Hindu Indians (Bajorans), among others.

The later situation is given added complexity by the addition of aliens who represent social movements and trends, or who have taken on their own identity. Thus the Klingons emerge as a weird combination of African-American culture, bikers, and Vikings. The Dominion represents the "New World Order". The Borg represent many people's fear of computers, and the Betazoids are sort of the New Age Middle Class self-image.

Highly amusing, no?

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Slan agat!

I don't know about the Irish Betazoid thing, but the Centaurians=Canadians thing is easy to explain. Canadians are just like Americans, only sane, ethical, and basically nice people. Centaurians are just like Humans, only sane, ethical, and basically nice people.

This is, of course, a silly rabid stereotype, with just enough trace of truth to be amusing.........

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Slan agat!

Hey does anyone else here realize except for one reference to Zephram Cochrane there are no other mentiones of the Centuari in Star Trek. How did they become canon?

Is this a leave over from FASA Trek?

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Aslan Collas
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RPG_Trek; http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rpg-trek
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Ferengi Rule Of Acquisition #76: Every once in a while, declare peace. It confuses the hell out of your enemies.

There is one footnote to this discussion that needs to be considered: Gene Roddenberry's true intention vis a vis the Federation.

According to various non-approved Trek sources (such as the excellent book CAPTAIN'S LOGS), Roddenberry's vision of the Federation FROM DAY ONE OF TOS was much more in line with what was promulgated in TNG; namely a socialist utopia where mankind had overcome their tribal tendancies and prejudices. This was, for me, a revalation, because one of the things that I took away from years of devotion to TOS was that mankind could achieve greatness and wisdom without a wholesale re-arrangement of human nature that Gene apparently envisioned. This aspect of TOS apparently came from the mind of Gene L. Coon, who mixed Roddenberry's less-than-realistic views with some basic common sense (as he saw it) and managed to generate something of lasting power (heck, it's 35 years later and we're still talking about it).

The book CAPTAIN'S LOGS goes on at length about how Gene's unyielding philosophical views (among other things) greatly hampered the first two seasons of TNG. The best example of his stubbornness biggest one was the season one ender with the parasite things: the original draft featured a conspiracy of Starfleet officers, which Gene nixed with a simple "They simply wouldn't do that". It is only once Gene was removed from day-to-day operations, replaced by Rick Berman, that things got better. Though many decry him based on the hash that VOYAGER became (IMO), he was the guiding force for the better episodes of TNG, and for DS9.

MikeC, popping in for a visit

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Originally posted by REG:
Personally, I'd rather they not do that, but instead form a coalition similar to the United Nations but retain their own sovereignty.

To join the Federation would make the Klingon, Romulan, and other great sovereign powers subjugated under the Federation law, which may not be a good thing, IMHO.

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The same as the Andorians, Vulcans, Bolians, etc, etc...

And remember, today's UN became a true world government here on Earth...

Andorians = Ancient Celts, Japanese, Native Americans

I connected Betazoids to the Irish simply because of Daphne Moon on Frasier. I wanted to assign associations to everyone, and this is all I could think of.

Aedh was right on the money about the Centauran-Canadian thing.

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The Trekkie Formerly Known As Surak, AKA The Coch, Humble Creator of the Bwuutut and Mensaeans, Aba and Zwickau, and the Perseus Federation, Guy Who Still Hasn't Actually Played The Game, And Who Finally Decided To Use A Signature.

Anyone think that the Tal Shiar resemble in many ways the K.G.B. of the U.S.S.R.?

Yes. The Tal Shiar and even the Obsidian Order of the Cardassians are just like the K.G.B. and Section 31 is like the C.I.A. I think in 29th Century Trek Section 31 will play an even bigger part.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Cochrane:
I connected Betazoids to the Irish simply because of Daphne Moon on Frasier. I wanted to assign associations to everyone, and this is all I could think of

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Irish? How'd you get that one - she's supposed to be from northern England! (Manchester to be precise, although Jane Leeves is actually from the south...)



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Slartibart-Jon

Sorry. Shows how well I know accents. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif

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The Trekkie Formerly Known As Surak, AKA The Coch, Humble Creator of the Bwuutut and Mensaeans, Aba and Zwickau, and the Perseus Federation, Guy Who Still Hasn't Actually Played The Game, And Who Finally Decided To Use A Signature.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Lt.Khrys Antos:
Anyone think that the Tal Shiar resemble in many ways the K.G.B. of the U.S.S.R.?

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Quite right, and the Tal Diann is the ST version of the GRU...Russian Military intel. they hate the KGB as much as the TD hates the TS. I view the Obsidian Order more like the Stasi, East German Secret Police. It was notoriously hard for other countries to put agents in EG because the Stasi were so good at picking them out and they were know for their vicious interrigation techniques. Very much like the Obsidian Order.

Hmmm…contemplating the future…More so http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif

Well, I can’t say as to the time you’re running there C. (I’m only running in early-mid-25th Cent. myself), but I came up with this idea (actually, it an expansion on a FASA idea):
The Grand Alliance:
Formed (or rather “Formalized”) Post-“Borg War”, the concept was simple; If any of the Three falter (The U.F.P., Klingon Empire, or Romulan Empire), then the other(s) within the alliance would step-in/step-up to help in whatever way possible/necessary (provisions, materials, manpower, firepower, whatever). At the same time as this alliance was created, civil and formalized war between ‘the powers’ was abolished (“If one raising sword against the other, then the third will intervene: a) in protection of civilians, b) to help the force ‘most in need’, c) assistance for the injured/wounded/…)…
Sorry, but it’s long, detailed, and basically designed to prevent a ‘bullying’ factor. That ‘most in need’ provision was put in to justify if say; the Klingons attack the Romulans for stockpiling ships, troops, and weapons near the Klingon border. This would/should only happen after the Klingons request removal/warning of repercussion, and a formal notification to the U.F.P. (and them ‘checking-it-out’). If all these steps were followed (by the Klingons), then the U.F.P. may side with the Klingons (if evidence supports their claim)
Anyway, long story short (if that’s possible now http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif); the alliance allows ‘the powers’ to stay sovereign; yet have a formalized voice with the others on ‘galactic-welfare’ (Plus it scares the crap out of the Gorn, Cardassians, and others who think they’re tough…even the Borg. Attack one you attack all…not a good idea http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif)


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...and that's about the time it hit the fan...

Given the degree of competition from the Dominion and the Borg, that sort of Grand Alliance may well develop, and expand. We can probably add the Taurhai and Cardassians to it eventually, and assume that it occasionally splinters and even falls into short wars.

It would obviously be stronger during major galactic conflicts, such as the First Galactic War, when the Borg take on literally everyone else, and go down to fiery but glorious defeat......

Now, THAT could make a new Trek movie or series!

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Slan agat!

Actually ,I wasn’t thinking about the Dominion when this campaign started (they weren’t even on DS9 yet…)(oh; I guess I also failed to mention this game was a carry-over from a FASA Trek game, hence why some things were ‘retro-fitted’ later. You’ll see some examples later, I promise http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif.). It was about a) “hey if the Klingons now are allied with UFP, why not the Romulans?”(Given the story starts about 10years after a 20year ‘Borg-War’, which rocked the alpha and beta quadrants…), b) I liked the episode where Riker joined the Klingon ship (the officer exchange program), but thought at the same “what about ‘long-term’ exchanges, transfers, and cross-overs? Gene’s sandbox is so full of potential…”)

Cardassians didn’t make the cut: too new an enemy to pass up. See Hitler pulled Germany out of a state of economic depression and political turmoil (post World War 1, which they also started… no offence intended to anybody from Germany), and did so in very short order/fashion. Where my game is, Cardassia’s has had nearly a full century to recover, but did they ‘learn’ anything? As far as we know, they didn’t mention anything about rebuilding their culture, arts, religion, or even moral beliefs. A society without these things in good, strengthen supply can slip to something more…chaotic, sinister,…you get the idea (besides, how long did the UFP say they’d be staying on Cardassia? My guess is “ ‘til they get back on they feet enough to sustain themselves…”, so roughly 10 to 15 years, then it’s highway time http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif)


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...and that's about the time it hit the fan...

Hmmm...just thinking about TNG vs TOS with regard to "forcing people into doing something".

I don't ever remember Picard threatening to execute General Order "xx" and annihilate the surface of a planet if he didn't get his way...

...and how often did Kirk flagrantly violate the PD and completely alter entire races' evolution?? (The Apple, A Taste of Armageddon, the one with the Organians, etc)

Mind you, this is one reason I'm such a heretic in finding Kirk a pain in the a$$ and 90% of TOS a waste of celluloid...


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"Every atom in our bodies was forged in the furnace of ancient stars - it is our destiny to return home..."

*rushes to Cochrane's aid* ack! everyone stop bad mouthing the Federation! They have peaceful intentions and wish other races to join for their own good. They use force only when necessary. How can they possibly be communists? Just because there is no need for credits and the use of replicators removes alot of hunger and poverty, they cannot be called communists. They did not choose the communist ideology but it was accepted due to the advent of replication technology. There, ive said it. The Feds are the good guys and are finally learning to give there ships decent defenses. All hail the Prometheus Class starship http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif

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I live in this century, it doesn't mean I have to tolerate it

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Originally posted by Vaebn:
[BThey have peaceful intentions and wish other races to join for their own good. [/B]

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I am sure that the Borg would say the same thing...!