Not your average Trek vs. Wars...

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Originally Posted by spyone

Well, I was partly missing the point, but I think you also missed mine: The relative strengths of the weapons and defenses are largely irrelevant.
If I cannot be hit, and you cannot dodge my shots, then I don't need any defenses at all, and even if I am using a pea-shooter against your WWII battleship, if anyone ever wins it will be me.

If you are using STL weapons, my FTL sensors will tell me where you are shooting and my FTL drive will take me away from there. However, your STL sensors will do you no good in predicting where my FTL weapons are going.

Star Trek supposes FTL weapons, sensors, and drives. That gives its ships a significant tactical advantage over those of any setting that does not.
That doesn't make Trek "cooler", but it does make "who'd win" discussions kinda pointless. :)

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I dont think it would be quite as lopsided as you think. The ability of FTL ships vs FTL weapons proved to be one of the reasons why when running starship combat with games that use photorps as seeking weapons, thier effective ranges ened up beng about the same as phasers. Essentially if your tarrget is 4 milliom km away you target has the time to detect the weapon and go to warp.

But Star Wars does have evidence of FTL sensors and communications. The former is demostrated during hyperspace travel, and the latter is shown through the holonet (which seems to work in real time-but then so does trek's "subspace cmmunications").

A turbo laser might not only be more powerful than a standard laser, but accelerated to superlumal velocities. Who knows?

Trek has rarely, if ever, had a situation where one side could be immune to the other side's weapons via warp.

And, there is also the fact that eventually, Starfleet ships would end up in a stituation where they would be forced to keep at sublight velocities (like defending an attack against Earth) and go toe to toe with the SW ships.


My own personal slant on the relative tech of the two settings, for what it's worth (not much) is that Trek ships appear to be more powerful on a weapon for weapon, ship to ship basis, but that Star Wars ships tend to balance that out with greater numbers and more weapons per ship.

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Originally Posted by JALU3

The empire and the agents of the rebellion/new republic are taken a back. There is a new threat . . . that does not care for their ideas of good and evil . . . light and dark . . . just a locust with a maddening need to feed and grow Will the two sides decide to join forces against this new threat? Will the idea of the Death Star . . . become a godsend . . . and thought as the ultimate sterilizer against an almost unstoppable evil?

Imagine the shattered remnents of the Old Republic/Empire and members of the former rebellion actually working towards the construction of the Death Star.

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Remember the Doomsday Weapon/Planet Killer from TOS? There are some Tek novels that suggest that the weapon was built by a species for use against the Borg. Such a weapon is very similar in purpose to a Death Star (it destoys planets).

Someone who wanted to tie the two universes together could even assume that TOS's planet killer is a 3rd+ generation Death Star made by forces of Star Wars New Republic to combat the Borg manace. SW hyperspace travel is very similar to Borg transwarp travel (substitute the word subspace for hyperspace and comapre). If we go with the SW tech books that claim they use neutronium in thier hull construction, that would match up with the Planet Killer. The new shape could be explained as an attempt to eleiminate the Death Star's vulunerability (exhaust port).

Finally watched the video, kinda cute and not to biased to either side.

What I found most disturbing was that none of the Ent. personel noticed the changeling at the Helm controls: durring the fight the helm was manned by some extra, Ensign Rho, Wesley in a cadet uniform, and Wesley in a standard uniform! :p

I love a good crossover, and the Borg make good 'exportable baddies' (like Dr. Doom and The Joker; very adaptable and able to mess with anyone they meet), so the Ent. following a Borg Dodecahedron through a dimentional portal to SW might be fun. I don't think Picard would shoot first (at least not in the original version; in the re-released version he does...), but maybe he's force sensitive and knows the dark side.

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Originally Posted by spyone

Well, I was partly missing the point, but I think you also missed mine: The relative strengths of the weapons and defenses are largely irrelevant.
If I cannot be hit, and you cannot dodge my shots, then I don't need any defenses at all, and even if I am using a pea-shooter against your WWII battleship, if anyone ever wins it will be me.

If you are using STL weapons, my FTL sensors will tell me where you are shooting and my FTL drive will take me away from there. However, your STL sensors will do you no good in predicting where my FTL weapons are going.

Star Trek supposes FTL weapons, sensors, and drives. That gives its ships a significant tactical advantage over those of any setting that does not.
That doesn't make Trek "cooler", but it does make "who'd win" discussions kinda pointless. :)

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Ok so you have your brilliant plan... just a shame you will only get about 4 shots off from this miracle SHUTTLE you proposed :D

Seriously though.. FTL can only work in a limited number of scenarios.. From what we have seen, ranges on trek weapons are much huger with more accuracy, which would prove to be more of an advantage than warp flyby's - a stunt which would be mad for all but the best pilots - I for one don't want to miscalculate by a few picoseconds and ram a star destroyer at warp 3!! (albeit an effective way to destroy it, if Darwin award winner :D). Mystery shots which can't be detected aren't really relevant if your shields still stop them just the same: While really cool, a Starfleet shuttle, with it's extremely limited shots would still be just as much of a gadfly as an X Wing to the monstrous Star Destroyers!

If I were to battle them, I'd stay just on the edge of my weapons ranges and pummel them from afar :D

I tend to disregard the Neutronium 'canon' as bunk, as it's not classed as canon, and is nonsensical Neutroium is not something yo can just alloy - it is not conventional matter, let alone a metal :D The Same 'canon' which implies it, said it was lying around on some planet, just beneath the surface... so the reason why these people didn't compress instantly into an infinitelly thin splat of red good I don't know :D

I've noticed some "Borg vs. Force" comments, but what if the Borg were one of those "Force Resistant" (like the Hutts) or even "Force Blind" (like the Yuvush Vong in the expanded universe)? Their biomechanical bodies, focused hive mind and vast knowledge of the universe could give them an edge over your typical force user.....

or not.

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Originally Posted by Tricky

I've noticed some "Borg vs. Force" comments, but what if the Borg were one of those "Force Resistant" (like the Hutts) or even "Force Blind" (like the Yuvush Vong in the expanded universe)? Their biomechanical bodies, focused hive mind and vast knowledge of the universe could give them an edge over your typical force user.....

or not.

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Yeah, but also a significant disadvantage too. Most of the Force powers we see in SW aren't directed against an enemy (those are the ones that ususaly earn "Dark Side Points") but work on the Jedi. So in some ways that would give the Borg a weakness since they would notice the effects of an ability without being able to determine it's source. It would also tened to lead to the Borg not being able to properly anticipate Jedi tactics and fighting strength. For example they won't expect a Jedi to be able to run down a 50m corridor in a couple of secords or to make a 60 foot jump.

Personally, considering things like Unimatrix Zero, I would expect that the Borg would be tied to the Force, just not able to tap into it (like most life forms).

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Originally Posted by Tobian

I tend to disregard the Neutronium 'canon' as bunk, as it's not classed as canon, and is nonsensical Neutroium is not something yo can just alloy - it is not conventional matter, let alone a metal :D The Same 'canon' which implies it, said it was lying around on some planet, just beneath the surface... so the reason why these people didn't compress instantly into an infinitelly thin splat of red good I don't know :D

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I disregrd neutrnium hulls are being a rather poor choice for use on a spaceship. I mean sure, it's tough. In fact so tough that most the weapons in most Sci-Fi setting can't hurt it. Not to mention the fact that any attack that is actually capable of damaging the stuff is going to wipe out the crew as a side effect. Oh, and then breaking the nuclear bonds of the stuff would probably cause the whole mass to go supercritical and detonate into a massive nuclear explosion that would make the Death Star look like a sparkgun.
But neutrnium is also very, very dense (a spoonful weights tons)- so much so that the energy requirments to move the dammed ships would be outrageous. Not very cost effetive either. Sort of the equvalent of making a star go nova just to light a cigarette-it works but there are better alternatives.

There is also the inpracticality of neutonium in regards to landing a ship on a planet. Being so dense, the ship would sink into the planet's crust. Luke would really lost his X-Wing on Dagobah.

I tend to regard Neutronium (In Trek) as something which is used in conjunction with subspace fields, to lower it's effective mass.. The hull is nigh on impregnible, bit if you damage the field - kablewie - one ready made pancake crew! :D

It's also amusing that the AT-ST also has (according to the Technical manuals) Neutronium based armour, yet we saw one get crushed by 2 logs on Endor... One wonders what those trees were made of, and how those vines managed to hold them up :D

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Originally Posted by Tobian

It's also amusing that the AT-ST also has (according to the Technical manuals) Neutronium based armour, yet we saw one get crushed by 2 logs on Endor... One wonders what those trees were made of, and how those vines managed to hold them up :D

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Goverment contractors! :eek: That's what happens when you use slave labor. :D


Come to think of it, it the Empire's technology is so superior how come they got thier butts kicked by a bunch of furry Prime Directive protectees?:confused:

At least the Klingons were able to fend off their arch-enemies the Tribbles. :D The Borg, Ha! What if Cyano Jones landed on Coruscant. :eek:

"Your tribble mind trick won't work on me!"
"Coooo..Coooo"
"It's soooo cute!"

Two weeks later and the planet turns into a black hole under the weight of enough tribbles to collaspe a neutronuim planet. [Neutronium: It'
s not just for starship anymore]

Maybe (a lot lore more reasonably) the stuff is just neutronium laced? Supposedly they use the stuff to make a durasteel alloy. A very small percentage of neutronium would enhance be a nice way to improve strutual integrity, but not result in indesctrubable ships. That would probably make durasteel similar to duranium in Trek.

Also, neutrnium might not be a superense strong substance. One scientific theory postulates that it could be a very light substance (atomic number 0). Do we know if SW is using ST's defintion of the stuff.