Chaplains in Starfleet?

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Originally posted by Cochrane:
The reason I didn't have packages for other specific religions is that I am not an authority on those subjects.

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A wise decision...

But not quite what I meant, I thought that for the peolpe that dont think outside the box, the single focus of the Christian Religion in amongst all the other generalised packages could be taken the wrong way (and lets face it, we argue about religion semi-regularly on these boards). As an example;

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Originally posted by Cochrane:
Early Life Packages

Christian Youth Seminary:
Theology (Christian) 1 (2)
History (Christan) 1 (2)
+1 willpower OR +1 empathy edge
Fanatic -2 OR Pacifism -2

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Early Life Packages

Religious Youth Seminary:
This Package is designed to represent a focused up-bringing in religious surroundings, common with children at schools run by religions who go on to study to become practitioners and ministers of their chosen faith.

Theology (Specific Religion) 1 (2)
History (Specific Religion) 1 (2)
+1 willpower OR +1 empathy edge
Fanatic -2 OR Pacifism -2

The package is innofensive enough, but by swapping the word Christian for a choice then suddenly opens the package to all religious beliefs without the need to re-wtite the same package over and over with a single word change.

NOTE: Remember I got where your coming from, but feel that rules additions should be easily read and understood, that the meaning can be mis-interpreted far to easily, and that when dealing with religion, already a touchy subject, the need to 'nerf pad' the world becomes even greater...


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DanG.

"Hi, I'm Commander Troy McClure, you might remember me from other academy training holo-simulations as, Abandon Ship, the quickest way out, and I sense danger, 101 things you dont need a Betazoid to know..."

http://www.theventure.freeserve.co.uk

Edited the overlay again.

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Games. The Final Product. These are the books of the Star Trek RPG. Their five year license. To explore strange new roles. To breathe new life into get togethers. To boldly play what no fan has played before!

Grumpy,

Can you cite evidence of this "sneering contempt?" I don't remember any in the TNG, Voy or DS9.

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In the Praetors Name!

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Originally posted by Phantom:
Grumpy,

Can you cite evidence of this "sneering contempt?" I don't remember any in the TNG, Voy or DS9.

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It is true that, with the exception of DS9, virtually every religion/ spiritual-oriented character in Trek was a villan or otherwise an example of intolerance or unenlightened thought... or was aprimative who couldn't be expected to "know any better".

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"I'd rather die standing than live on my knees..."
Shania Twain

The only thing I've seen as negative towards spiritual beliefs in TNG was the episode where Troi was held captive planet side, and Picard broke the Prime Directive, getting shot with an arrow at the end.

Everything else I've seen has led me to believe that Starfleet personel keep their spiritual beliefs to themselves, except where they might interfere with their ship(or station)-board duties, such as a passifist not being forced to carry weapons while on away missions, etc. This would prevent personal conflicts rather than infringe on religious rights-- everyone agrees to dis-agree rather than bicker about who's god is better, as some religions are wont to do..

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Even in this age of technological wonders, the human mind is still the most powerful weapon in the universe.

I can think of a good example.

Bajorans wear earrings (my guess is it is supposed to hold their pah, as that's where they seem to think it's stored). It's a Bajoran cultural touch, much like Worf's sash. Yet, Picard forbade Ro Laren from wearing hers, citing how it wasn't part of a Federation uniform. Neither is worf's sash, yet I remember him in the gold uniform, at tactical, with the sash displayed proudly across his chest.. and it's even more obtrusive than the earring!

Now, obviously the Federation doesn't play cultural favorites, so the obvious assumption (whether it's correct or nto is anyone's guess) is that Worf wears a political adornment, so it's okay, while Ro wore a religious adornment, so it's wrong.



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"You got your Star Trek Trek in my roleplaying game!"
"You got your roleplaying game in my Star Trek!"
LUGTrek, two great tastes that taste great together

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Originally posted by Traska:
I can think of a good example.

Bajorans wear earrings (my guess is it is supposed to hold their pah, as that's where they seem to think it's stored). It's a Bajoran cultural touch, much like Worf's sash. Yet, Picard forbade Ro Laren from wearing hers, citing how it wasn't part of a Federation uniform. Neither is worf's sash, yet I remember him in the gold uniform, at tactical, with the sash displayed proudly across his chest.. and it's even more obtrusive than the earring!

Now, obviously the Federation doesn't play cultural favorites, so the obvious assumption (whether it's correct or nto is anyone's guess) is that Worf wears a political adornment, so it's okay, while Ro wore a religious adornment, so it's wrong.

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Actually it was Riker, and it seemed more to be a senior officer putting a potential problem in its place with a steel rod...

Not the best method, but they lightened up when Ro proved herself.

Of course this does show a completely diferent level of hypocracy, but not religiously based...



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DanG.

"Hi, I'm Commander Troy McClure, you might remember me from other academy training holo-simulations as, Abandon Ship, the quickest way out, and I sense danger, 101 things you dont need a Betazoid to know..."

http://www.theventure.freeserve.co.uk

Didn't Tuvok do something similar with former Maquis Bajoran during his "academy training"?

And I have seen a similar trend downplaying religion in Trek of late, which I find sad.

Truely DS9 did it the best, showing both the good sides and the bad sides of spirituality. Even then I sa more of the bad sides shown than the good sides, at least in the early episodes. It got better later on.

However I'd rather that religion not be shown at all then played in the negative light that it often was in later Trek.

Ah, Riker, yes. My bad. Saw the episde all of once, but the scene itself stuck with me.

I still say he never would have gotten away with that, however, it was a political distinctiveness item, like the sash or Nog's headwrap. But because the earring is (I believe, anyway... someone official want to correct either way?) linked to Bajoran religion, Riker felt free to require her to ditch it.

Heck, maybe he felt that her religion was the very reason she was as rebellious as she was. Who knows?

Obviously, though, he was authorized to do this, even though other Starfleet personnel clearly wear similar items. Now, maybe it's specific to certain races (although not only Federation-member worlds, as Nog is from Ferenginnar), or maybe it's something commanding officers decide on a case by case basis (which seems to fly in the face of the level of equality the Federation seems to stand for). But I keep coming back to what the item in question represents.



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"You got your Star Trek Trek in my roleplaying game!"
"You got your roleplaying game in my Star Trek!"
LUGTrek, two great tastes that taste great together

It is interesting - in a vulgar kind of way - how many people demand freedom and tolerance but are unwilling to extend the same freedom and tolerance.

All of Star Trek: the Next Generation and Star Trek: Voyager treated religion and spirituality with a sneering contempt. Both programs treated characters who used religious to pursue spirituality with sneering concept. The only exception to this rule is Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, and even then Major Kira was the only character presented as a spiritual individual who was not also a brittle tempered lunatic. This represent a clear bias on part of the writers, producers and creators of the programs.

In the Star Trek universe, it is not appropriate to use scientific jargon or psychological discussions to dissect a person’s sexuality or condemn a persons sexuality as deviant (with the notable exceptions of rape). This would be discrimination and bigotry.

In the Star Trek universe, it is not appropriate to use scientific jargon or psychological discussions to dissect a person’s gender or condemn a persons gender as inferior. This would be discrimination and bigotry.

In the Star Trek universe, it is not appropriate who use scientific jargon or psychological discussion to dissect a person’s race/species or condemn a persons race/species. This would be discrimination and bigotry.

In the Star Trek universe, it is not appropriate who use scientific jargon or psychological discussion to dissect a person’s age or condemn a person for their age. This would be discrimination and bigotry.

In the Star Trek universe, it is not appropriate who use scientific jargon or psychological discussion to dissect a person’s appearance or condemn a person for their appearance. This would be discrimination and bigotry.

In the Star Trek universe, it is not appropriate who use scientific jargon or psychological discussion to dissect a person’s socio-political philosophy or condemn a persons socio-political philosophy (unless they are using their socio-political philosophy to justify violent action, which case it is still the action which are condemned). This would be discrimination and bigotry.

Yet if a character expresses spirituality, all the other characters expresses a kind of sneering contempt and ill-concealed hostility as though the spiritual character was farting loudly at the dinner table. They promptly swoop in with all manner of scientific jargon and/or psychological discussion to dissect a person’s person spirituality and either directly or by intimation, condemn the spirituality and the person for expressing spirituality.

Sexuality, gender, age, appearance, race/species and socio-political are all sacrosanct - with good reason. Yet religion and spirituality are all unilaterally condemned.

The hypocrisy of this boarders on the vulgar.

The litmus test - the only litmus test - would be if an individual religion or spirituality interfered with their work and duties and/or prompted them to commit crimes. If a characters religion and spirituality does not interfere with their duties and/or cause them to commit crime, there is no rational, logical or ethically/morally defensible reason to condemn them or there religion and spirituality.

Yet the majority of Star Trek fans, writers and creators - while at the same time defending liberty, tolerance, sexuality, gender, age, appearance, race/species and socio-political - spit on religion, spirituality, and those who follow either.

If Star Trek is held to the standards it ostensibly defends...

Given the purportedly large numbers of colonies in the Star Trek universe, it is highly probable that there are religious colonies.

Every single culture in human history has - at least at one time - has had religion and spirituality as a vital component of its society. Given that most alien cultures in Star Trek are inspired by (if not out right derived from) human nature and human cultures, (even excluding such established spiritual races as Vulcan, Klingons, Betazed, Ferangi and Bajorans) it is reasonably to assume most alien cultures at one time or another had religion and spirituality as a vital component of its society. In fact, it might be viewed as irrational to view all alien societies as inherently atheists.

Given the above, there are likely studies in aliens religions at institutions such as Star Fleet academy and the Vulcan Science Academy, if just as extensions of the fields of sociology and anthropology.

Yet the majority of Trekers still spit on religion, spirituality, and those who follow either.


[This message has been edited by Grumpy (edited 08-01-2001).]

I don't recall the Enterprise crew sneering at Worf concerning his religion...

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Games. The Final Product. These are the books of the Star Trek RPG. Their five year license. To explore strange new roles. To breathe new life into get togethers. To boldly play what no fan has played before!

allright, as far as contempt, I didnot see it either. Particullarly in Voyager, where Chakotay's beliefs where very well expounded on. Though Janeway could be considered a scientologist and she originally had, mixed feelings about Chakotay's belief until she experienced them herself... her power animal was a lizard( I believe) much like Chakotays is a wolf.

I think Star Trek has done a good job w/ dealing w/ religion as it is a touchy subject, we grew to enjoy the Bajoran beliefs through the course of the DS9. It wasn't just dumped on us. Bab 5 did, well when they had that episode of the diffrent beliefs from around the Universe and SHeridan introduced the various religions of Earth in a simple manner, due to Earths abundance of religions.

I think with any show, it would be hard to give any religion any specific nod, unless that show was geared towards that religion. SHow's like Seventh Heaven, Touched by an Angel, Father Dowling Mysteries... are all prime examples of shows that have catered to the Catholic faith. WHile other shows like Charmed, Buffy and Angel have suported the Pagan faith.

Star Trek brings out the best in us, it makes us realize that our faiths though important to us as individuals is not important to everyone as a whole.

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Jonathan Talbot.
Medical Officer
"First Away Team Mission... Beaming down to a Hostile Planet... Captain Kirk is leading the Away Team... I am wearing a red shirt... No Fear!!! Unknown Crew Member

Originally posted by Jonathan Talbot:
"Particullarly in Voyager, where Chakotay's beliefs where very well expounded on."

After first season, Chakotay's spirital beleif were never really revisited. Janeway never went on a spiritual journey agian. In th entire run of the show only two episodes dealt with spirituality in an intresting way. The first was where Nelix died and had no afterlife and had a crisis of faith. That was dealt with well with out treating him like an ideot for having the beleifs in the first place. The other was the episode where B'Lanna died and did have an afterlife experience.

The fact that the writers did like spirituality and religous was so pronouced it hurt there stories. In the two-parter where the Dr. is kidnapped by freedomsighting hologram - it turns out their leader was a religious lunatic. Making the leader of their cause a lunatic undermined the drama of the story and umdermiend the freed-cause of the holograms. But the writers disliked religion so much that they did it anyway.

"The first was where Nelix died and had no afterlife and had a crisis of faith." as qouted by Grumpy.

Actually Chakotay's beliefs where once again brought to the forefront in that epsiode as they where in the ones w/ the aliens that could only interact through the Dreaming World. It was just brought up in different manners and areas. A spirit journey or quest is a highly symbolic-spiritual.

If Star Trek tried to expound on every religion, including the ones they make up. They would be slammed with a religious harrassement suite so fast, there head would swim.

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Jonathan Talbot.
Medical Officer
"First Away Team Mission... Beaming down to a Hostile Planet... Captain Kirk is leading the Away Team... I am wearing a red shirt... No Fear!!! Unknown Crew Member

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Originally posted by Phantom:
Grumpy,

Can you cite evidence of this "sneering contempt?" I don't remember any in the TNG, Voy or DS9.

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I remember Picard derisively saying that 'mankind had outgrown that foolishness'. I seem to remember it dealing with religion. Could be wrong, but I always got the anti-religion vibes off of TNG whenever the subject came up. the Federation is very socialist/communist in its presentation; I suppose the 'opiate of the masses' mentality goes with that. Or wait...that TV now.

Actually, I've been pumping up religious elements of my campaign. Though I am a skeptical/agnostic -- it provides an emotional pillow for a lot of people. That's not going to go away just because of holodecks & replictors.

As for Voyager, really couldn't say...I stopped watching after season one. DS9 seemed to have a bit more balanced look on the religion thing, but once again, I didn't watch it regularly.

[This message has been edited by qerlin (edited 08-02-2001).]

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Originally posted by Traska:
There are more atheists and agnostics right now (myself being an agnostic) than there were in any point in history. Just three hundred years ago, the idea that there wasn't a god (or even might not be one) was completely absurd.

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About 400 years ago, a man could be hung for saying there was no god in public. That would, I assume, cut into their numbers. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif

Add to that a well known phenomenon that people crave control of their environment to a degree approaching dementia. Basicly, people who feel like they do not have control over their environment tend to invent ways of asserting control, which are often superstitions. Baseball players tend to be superstitious, and this is in part because they, individually, have so little control over the outcome of the game.

It is proposed that the origin of religion lies in this phenomena. Basicly a man moves along this path: I wish it would rain, I wish I could make it rain, Someone must be able to make it rain, I wish I could make them make it rain for me. Having offended your god is easier to deal with, emotionally, than having absolutely no control over whether the rain that is vital to your survival will happen or not.

What I'm saying above is that, as one expands scientific knowledge, the need for religion as a crutch lessens. If you can predict whether it will rain or not, you no longer feel the need to beg your god to make it rain.

That said, I'll take the opposite tack:
If you wanted to do an experiment to determine which was better, good or evil, you would need to do quite a few things. You would need to codify what was good and waht was evil. You would need to define what "better" means in this context, like 'more likely to survive'. You would then need to create experiment subjects, who were either good or evil, and place them in competition with each other. Or perhaps you would want to make your subjects equally capable of good or evil, and able to freely decide between their possable courses of action.
Looking at it this way, you might soon realize that, were you gifted with infinite powers and resources, your experiment might look a little like our universe. Similarly, you might realize that your experimental subjects, in order to model our reality, should have the capactiy to guess your existance.
Then you find yourself asking: If I know the algorithm the computer uses to generate random numbers, and I know the random number seed, then I could compute the result of every call for a random number, and therefore predict the status at every checkpoint of my program, if I care to. Is that the same as omniscience?
And you find yourself drawn to the notion that our universe, and our lives, are indistinguishable from a detailed experiment in the nature of good and evil in an environment of subjects imbued with free will. So the only question remaining is, is someone waiting for the result? Is there, in fact, a creator who established this experiment, or is this just a random happenstance.

As a RPG book I once read said, "God created me in His image, is it any wonder I delight in the creation of worlds?"

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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.

While folks are picking on this:

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Originally posted by Cochrane:
Starfleet Chaplain Overlay
...

Medical Sciences (Psychology) 1 (2)
...

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I'd make Psychology a subset of Social Sciences, since it really has so little in common with medicine. While some students of psychology also know a great deal about medicine, they are (by and large) possessed of an MD in addition to their Psychiatry degree.

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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.

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Originally posted by Phantom:
Science has proven many things in the Bible could have possibly happened for scientific reasons. I for one say "so what?"

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Indeed. Like the Babelfish of Hitchhiker's Guide fame, if there were a single "miracle" that absoltely defied scientific explanation, it would constitute proff of the existance of god, which it says right there in the rules we can't have.
God wrote the rules of the game and then let us see a copy. One of the rules is that we can't prove he exists. Therefore, explanation for how things He reportedly caused might have just happend randomly is not only okay, but nessicary.
Evolution? Not only possable but probable. I mean, who says God has to do things the hard way? If all of existance exists so that you have a place to be, is it nessicary that you be spontaneously created within it? Is it any less miraculous to say that God tweaked a few random events and set in motion a chain of events that, over billions of years, led inevitably to your creation?

I sure don't think so.

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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.

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Originally posted by Grumpy:
All of Star Trek: the Next Generation and Star Trek: Voyager treated religion and spirituality with a sneering contempt. Both programs treated characters who used religious to pursue spirituality with sneering concept. The only exception to this rule is Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, and even then Major Kira was the only character presented as a spiritual individual who was not also a brittle tempered lunatic. This represent a clear bias on part of the writers, producers and creators of the programs.

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Okay.
Blanket disagreement.
While all the shows could wax a little intolerant on occasion, they also all treated religion with respect on occasion. Mainly, they avoided it like the plague, as it is one issue where clear identification with a real-world source tends to alienate people.
DS9 dealt with religion more than the others. And it dealt with it even-handedly. Vedek Barial was a Good Man, drawn to the service of others, giving selflessly of himself, who even took dishonor onto himself rather than expose a good and devout woman for having made a difficult choice. (Kai Opaka had betrayed her own son to the Cardassians to spare the lives of many others.)
Vedek (later Kai) Winn, however, was self-deluded and power-hungry.
Of all the religions characters on DS9, Kira is the one I'd be most likely to call "a brittle tempered lunatic", except maybe for Worf, who was portraey IMO far more as a man with violent compulsions trying to keep them in check.

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In the Star Trek universe, it is not appropriate to use scientific jargon or psychological discussions to dissect a person’s gender or condemn a persons gender as inferior. This would be discrimination and bigotry.

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Not at all sure about this. I recall them acknowledging on several occasions that the physiological differences between the genders exist, in various species, and that htese differences often cause a prediposition toward ability for certain tasks.
[quote]
In the Star Trek universe, it is not appropriate who use scientific jargon or psychological discussion to dissect a person’s race/species or condemn a persons race/species. This would be discrimination and bigotry.[quote]
And yet, on several occasions, they said very much this kind of thing. Klingons make good fighters, due to the durability of their physical structure. Ferengi make good traders, due to the emphasis on deal-making in their culture.
Deltans make good lovers, due to physiological differences and cultural emphasis.
Vulcans, and Romulans, are strong. Cardassians can endure heat. Medusans are good at navigating, due to the way their minds work.

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In the Star Trek universe, it is not appropriate who use scientific jargon or psychological discussion to dissect a person’s age or condemn a person for their age. This would be discrimination and bigotry.

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Yet is is, again, often mentioned that advanced age limits one's physical abilities, and that the exrtemely aged require assistance for the most basic of tasks. Some people age gracefully, but Admiral Jameson so rejected the infimities of age that he took massive doses of a compound that would make him young again. Ben Tracy was so obsessed with having found a cure for aging that he egregiously violated the Prime Directive.
[quote][b]

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Yet if a character expresses spirituality, all the other characters expresses a kind of sneering contempt and ill-concealed hostility as though the spiritual character was farting loudly at the dinner table.

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I have no idea where you got that impression.
Picard did go over the line with the Edo people. Bad episode. He strayed close to the line in "Devil's Due", but there Troi questioned him about whether he had considered that the woman might be "Ardra".
Sisko was slightly condescending to members of the Bajoran faith, because he regarded them as misguided. A big piece of that, I think, was due to his unwillingly becoming a major religious figure to them. As he came to accept his role as Emissary better, he also came to respect their faith better.

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Yet the majority of Star Trek fans, writers and creators - while at the same time defending liberty, tolerance, sexuality, gender, age, appearance, race/species and socio-political - spit on religion, spirituality, and those who follow either.

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This has got to be the weirdest thing you've said. And you said it TWICE.

I suggest your perception of insult, both from the fans and the show, says a lot more about you than it says about the fans and the show. I consider myself religious, and I did not find the shows to be consistantly insulting. (though on rare occasion...)
I have never found the fans to be intolerant. In fact, they are by and large far more tolerant than I am.


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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.

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Originally posted by Traska:
Now, obviously the Federation doesn't play cultural favorites, so the obvious assumption (whether it's correct or nto is anyone's guess) is that Worf wears a political adornment, so it's okay, while Ro wore a religious adornment, so it's wrong.

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Or that Worf had gotten his CO's permission to deviate from the standard uniform, as Ro did at the end of the episode.

BTW, the pah is not in the earring. Rather, the earring is worn on one ear so the other ear is free to be grasped by someone who wants to sense your pah. And while the earring is "a symbol of their spiritual devotion"(Encyclopedia), it is a cultural symbol as well, as each one is unique and those of family members will likely be similar. The earring can be used to identify a person, and often is sent as proof of death.

Oh, and Ro wore hers on the wrong ear. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif
The new books ("Avatar") say she does it as an act of rebellion, to show her distance from the faith.

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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.

[This message has been edited by spyone (edited 08-02-2001).]

May seem like nitpicking, but

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Originally posted by Jonathan Talbot:

I think with any show, it would be hard to give any religion any specific nod, unless that show was geared towards that religion. SHow's like Seventh Heaven, Touched by an Angel, Father Dowling Mysteries... are all prime examples of shows that have catered to the Catholic faith. WHile other shows like Charmed, Buffy and Angel have suported the Pagan faith.

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I think the word you wanted there was "Christian" and not "Catholic". Father Dowling was a Catholic, and I'm unsure about Touched By An Angel, but the folks on Seventh Heaven are not Catholics. They are the family of a minister. A brief web-seach failed to turn up the Reverend Camden's denomination, but I feel safe in saying it is a protestant faith.

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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.

Correct me if I am wrong, but Reverends are Protestant "Priests" and Fathers are Catholic ones?

I could be mistaken.

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In the Praetors Name!

I don't recall the Enterprise crew sneering at Worf concerning his religion...

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Would YOU?

"It is a good day to die!"
"Aw c'mon, don't start with that Sto-vo-kor nonsen--"
THWACK!
'Urk....."
"....medic...."



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"You got your Star Trek Trek in my roleplaying game!"
"You got your roleplaying game in my Star Trek!"
LUGTrek, two great tastes that taste great together

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Originally posted by Phantom:
Correct me if I am wrong, but Reverends are Protestant "Priests" and Fathers are Catholic ones?

I could be mistaken.

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That is my understanding.
However, IIRC the term "Father" and "Priest" also applies to the clergy of the Orthodox faiths, such as Russian Othodox and Greek Orthodox, which split from the Catholic Church well before Protestantism. (Around 300 ad, IIRC).
And of course, "Priest" is used as a genaric term for clergy. As in "Vodoo Priest, Pagan Priest, Shinto Priest".
A big clue that he's non-catholic is that he's married and has children. While I've heard that marriage is not strictly forbidden for Catholic priests, it is strongly discouraged and counter to their teachings. (The clergyman who performed Hugh Hefner's wedding, IIRC, at least considers himself a Catholic Priest, and was married at the time he performed the ceremony. He said that his marriage did not terminate his Priesthood, but did mean he was never going to get promoted to Bishop.)

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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.

Okay, so I was wrong about the ear the earring was on... but it still is connected to the pah, making it a religious symbol. To be frank, though, I don't see Starfleet as giving COs that kind of control over the curturalism of its members. They strive for equality, and that idea virtually smacks of allowing favoritsm.

Riker did allow her the earring, yes, but I don't see why it should have been disallowed in the first place. But, we're probably going to have to agree to disagree on this one.



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"You got your Star Trek Trek in my roleplaying game!"
"You got your roleplaying game in my Star Trek!"
LUGTrek, two great tastes that taste great together

I was using the "priest" as a member of the clergy. Just a lack of any other term.

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In the Praetors Name!

Quote:

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Originally posted by Traska:
Okay, so I was wrong about the ear the earring was on... but it still is connected to the pah, making it a religious symbol. To be frank, though, I don't see Starfleet as giving COs that kind of control over the curturalism of its members. They strive for equality, and that idea virtually smacks of allowing favoritsm.

Riker did allow her the earring, yes, but I don't see why it should have been disallowed in the first place. But, we're probably going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

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Then why would Starfleet have uniforms at all? The whole point of uniforms is that everyone dresses according to a set of rules... uniforms actually aren't "uniform" each is different and you can tell various important facts about the wearer by looking a the uniform.

In any case, if Starfleet couldn't prevent members from wearing whatever they want, whenever they want, then why have uniforms in the first place? It may be policy that certain cultural items may be worn, or that commanders may give permission that certain items may be worn... but it would also be the case that that permission could be revoked or not given.

If a Starfleet officer has authority to order a servicemember to certain death, they certainly have permission to tell them they can't wear an earring on their ship. If an officer did that he might have to explain his order to his commander/ superior, but he wouldn't have to explain it to the servicemember in question.

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"I'd rather die standing than live on my knees..."
Shania Twain

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Originally posted by Phantom:
Correct me if I am wrong, but Reverends are Protestant "Priests" and Fathers are Catholic ones?

I could be mistaken.

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Reverent is a Protestant term... but so is Priest, Pastor, Minister... the Protestant side of Christianity isn't nearly as uniform as the Catholic side.

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"I'd rather die standing than live on my knees..."
Shania Twain

Chello!

Doesn't it say in the STNG RPG that the captain has the authority to allow alterations to the SF uniform as long as those changes don't interfere wih the proprer running of the ship?

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Originally posted by Lord Kjeran:
Chello!

Doesn't it say in the STNG RPG that the captain has the authority to allow alterations to the SF uniform as long as those changes don't interfere wih the proprer running of the ship?

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I imagine that it does... which implies he doesn't HAVE to authorize it.

Didn't Worf quit wearing his sash during Jellico's tenure? And he put Troi in uniform as well...

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"I'd rather die standing than live on my knees..."
Shania Twain

Actually, good point about uniforms being just that. So let's get that sash off of Worf. Let's get that headwrap off of Nog. Either apply the rule uniformly or don't apply it is my point.

As for the RPG, I love LUGTrek, so don't read into this... but the game has to coincide with the TV show, after all. I'm sure if some episode had O'Brien doing the hokey pokey every time he activated the transporters, the rules would have to reflect that being a part of the transporter activation sequence. =)



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"You got your Star Trek Trek in my roleplaying game!"
"You got your roleplaying game in my Star Trek!"
LUGTrek, two great tastes that taste great together

After some consideration, I've decided that I am adding a Chaplain to my TOS-era NPC crew. Partly, because my players won't expect it and will most likely misinterpret my intentions (mwah-ha-HAH!), but partly because it seems, reasonable. Since the ship will be totally out of contact with ANY planet for very long periods of time, it seems reasonable for there to be a spiritual as well as psychological anchor on board.
I debated what sort of Chaplain to design, and finally came up with a "Mensaean Universalist" minister.

The Mensaean Universalist doctrine is that there is, in fact, definitive Truth to be found in the universe. That Truth is best discovered by studying the beliefs of other species, distilling each species' spectrum of beliefs down to a core "ur-truth" for that species, and then assembling these together to get an overview of "Universal Truth". The Mensaean Universalist acts sort of like a spiritual psychoanalist, asking the believer about his beliefs, slowly working to define and interpret those beliefs and ultimately, to find the Truth within them that transcends the specific names, doctrines, sacraments etc. associated with the faith.
To carry this off in-character, I've been working on some distilled "ur-truths" for the various Trek species. These are some of the ideas I'm kicking around:

VULCANS: It is possible to find Peace from the ravages of uncontrolled Passion by refining and developing Discipline. Discipline of the mind, body, and spirit produce clarity and clarity produces peace.

ANDORIANS: It is possible to structure a chaotic system through ritual and thereby bring chaos into Order. The Past must be dead. If the Past is not allowed to Die, then those living in the present will not have Free Will, but will instead be slaves to their histories. The Past must die, must be allowed to die, in order for the future to be born.

TELLARITES: Out of a bewildering plurality of doctrines, religions, beliefs and practices, a certain underlying theme emerges--The Universe is an imperfect system. Imperfect Systems can be Perfected. The Universe, therefore, can be Perfected by the actions of enlightened individuals. It is possible to make a better reality through direct, personal action!

MEDUSANS: The Universe creates Infinity out of the Finite by folding each dimension through the next higher dimension. The finite line becomes an infinite Circle when the ends are folded through a second dimension. That Circle is made infinite by twisting it through a third dimension into a Moebius Strip. The Sphere is extended by folding into a Klein Bottle, through the fourth dimension. This process continues until in its ultimate expression, the Finite reality of the Universe transcends itself, folding into Infinity.
(Medusans are weird. Damn Non-Euclidian Bastards!)

Some Species still require work.
TIBURONIAN belief seems to bog down on a core of "If it FEELS good, odds are it IS good!"

AXANARI: There is RIGHT and there is WRONG. The two ideals are like Matter and Anti-matter. They cannot co-exist in the same physical space without annihilating each other. If a Rightful Government does something Wrong, it will disintegrate. The individual cannot survive being both Right and Wrong. Such conflicted individuals will lose all ability for meaningful accomplishment.
(sigh. Well. They are making progress, albeit slowly..)

Wrestled with the "Human Truth" for a bit. A little weighty a topic for one GM to tackle, solely as character-chrome for an RPG, but I gave it my best shot.
My candidate for the ultimate truth behind the aggregate of human beliefs boils down to the Game Theory conclusion:
"In the long term, the individual benefits more from Altruistic Behavior than from Selfish Behavior. Altruism produces the best results for the most participants, for the least risk."

There it is! Thank you! Good night! Tell the Philosophers to turn off the lights on their way out!

There you go again! Doing my work for me! Pretty soon these guys won't be mine at all any more. Sheesh. Keep it up!

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Games. The Final Product. These are the books of the Star Trek RPG. Their five year license. To explore strange new roles. To breathe new life into get togethers. To boldly play what no fan has played before!

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Originally posted by spyone:
...the term[s] "father" and "priest" also apply to the clergy of the Orthodox faiths, such as Russian Othodox and Greek Orthodox, which split from the Catholic Church well before Protestantism. (Around A.D. 300...).

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Actually, it was A.D. 1056, if I'm not mistaken.

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While I've heard that marriage is not strictly forbidden for Catholic priests, it is strongly discouraged and counter to their teachings.

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Actually, it was one of the causes of the abovementioned split with the Byzantine church--called in theological jargon a schism. Marriage, by the way, is forbidden for Roman Catholic priests--now. That doesn't stop all of them, obviously... and, of course, a dispensation can be obtained for just about anything. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif

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The clergyman who performed Hugh Hefner's wedding... at least considers himself a Catholic priest, and was married at the time he performed the ceremony. He said that his marriage did not terminate his priesthood, but did mean he was never going to get promoted to bishop.

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The term is sacerdos en aeternum (loosely, "Thou art a priest forever"). No mortal being has the authority to rescind the power God puts upon a priest to act in the stead of His Son, Jesus Christ. They can be forbidden to exercise those functions, but the power remains within them. Hefner's priest is being a bad boy, but the marriage is a valid one--whether or not the Church particularly likes it. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/eek.gif

Actually, LCM, I am a Roman Catholic and the rector of our Church is married. He was an episcopalian priest who left said church after having theological differences. HE was accepted into the Catholic faith as a full priest.

Canon law does allow priest to marry. the current convention of practice does not. "Holy orders are am impediment to marriage, but marriage is not an impediment to holy orders." In other words, if a man is a priest, under canon law he can never marry, but a married man can still become a priest (although there are only 8 married priests in the US that I know of and they are all former Episcopals).

There are Churches in Communion with the Holy See that allow marriage for priest (following the above guideline)--the Byzantine Catholics, the Rumanian Catholics, the Ukranian Catholics, etc. They are under the umbrella of the Holy See and subservient to the Holy Father. However they follow the Eastern rites (ie, Orthodox).

As to the Schism of 1056, it occurred because of a difference in belief over the Primacy of the Pope as the greatest of the Patriarchs. No more, no less. As my medieval history prof stated, there were other issues, but they were ancillary.

BTW, how did my thread get so far off topic?
http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/biggrin.gif



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"We are Klingons!"

Cmdr. Kruge, ST III

As a faithful Christian, this may come out a little strange.

First, I tend to view the Star Trek universe as a mostly non-spiritual universe where there are many godlike beings but no gods. Most everything has an an explanation even if no one understands it, and religion is mostly a cultural event that ties people to their pasts.

I'm not saying that a religion or multiple religions couldn't be partially or completely true. For instance if you want the Bible to be true when you run your game, you could say that Revelations was revealed in a way that the people of the time could understand. Perhaps, the locusts could be spaceships duking it out, and Gog and Magog could refer to the Klingons and Ferengi or something. I am using Christianity because I am a Christian and understand it better than other religions. You would have to use your own imaginations to work in other belief systems.

Personally, being the rare combination of a Christian roleplayer. Working religion into my campaigns is one of the things I wrestle with most. I want my worlds to be as realistic as possible which would include non-Christian or other-Christian religious beliefs, but not wanting to support something I feel to be blasphemy. I also don't want to get to preachy about my religious beliefs when we are not together to discuss religion; so, I usually take my own religious beliefs totally out of the world and call it an alternate fictional with nothing that I would consider real in it.

It may sound weird to take out my own religious beliefs so as not to offend them, but it is a way I can justify a world that might have Zeus or the God as a real power or having the beliefs of a differing denomination being presented as the truth when I feel it is not, and it works for me.


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"The best mind-altering drug is truth."
--Lily Tomlin

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Originally posted by calguard66:
I have to disagree on this point. C.S. Lewis once said that it takes less faith to believe in a Creator than to believe in Evolution.

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Lewis' agenda (he was, after all, a Christian apologist) would be enough to call that statement into question. The facts essentially disintegrate it.

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To believe in a Creator takes only a single act of faith... to believe in the Creator's existance.

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The logical fallacy here is that a single act of faith is inherently less substantive, cumulatively speaking, than are the series of smaller acts of faith required to have belief, say, that the Mets will resurrect their season by winning ten in a row starting tonight.

Talk about needing serious prayer. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/wink.gif

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To believe in evolution one has to believe that thousands of events transpired in a particular order producing the current result.

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But each of those events has a grounding in empiricism, and is thus far more believable than the non-existent evidence(other than hearsay, of course) for the actuality of a Creator.

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Any one of those thousands of events going awry would have resulted in something else, or nothing at all.

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Resulting in "something else" hardly invalidates the process. If anything, it solidifies the idea that evolution is taking place on a macrocosmic scale.

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This assumes, of course, that what we consider humanity and sentience is something special... which I assume as a default, since if we're not then there's no point to anything. It's sort of like Pascal's Wager.

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Perhaps humans have to find their own meaning, rather than simply despairing, and/or hoping they've been a priori supplied with one from Without.

Pascal's Wager is one of my pet peeves. It has so many logical holes that you could drive a Sovereign-class starship through it.

The man should have stuck to pure mathematics.

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In any case, the evidence for at least limited evolution is irrefutable... however, it also seems clear that evolution doesn't hold the entire answer.

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Well, religion's been given thousands of years to provide the entire answer, yet people continue to abandon it as insufficient. Perhaps all tools of understanding are discarded as superior ones appear. Religion seems to be fighting a losing rearguard action against a better-armed opponent--science. Comfortable, remember, is not correct.

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Therefore I personally subscribe to Creator-directed evolution. I also believe that no human religion has pinned down the nature of the Creator... and we probably aren't meant to. The universe was created for exploring, and we were created to explore it.

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And this answers "Why?" how? http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif

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There: A harmonious combination of science and religion... of reason and faith.

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Its harmony seems to depend on a little selective reasoning, in my opinion.

People want to make faith "reasonable," and it never will be, ultimately. Either your believe, or you don't. If you can give a "reason" why you believe, then your belief can be taken from you by a refutation of that reason. Thus, the best defense of faith may be, "I believe. I dont know why, and don't feel I have to explain it to you. I only know that I'm right."

Totally irrational... and completely irrefutable. Paradox is, after all, at the very heart of faith... and my words are as much straw, ultimately, as are those of Lewis, Pascal... and calguard 66. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif

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Originally posted by Jonathan Talbot:
Shows like Seventh Heaven, Touched by an Angel, Father Dowling Mysteries... are all prime examples of shows that have catered to the Catholic faith. WHile other shows like Charmed, Buffy and Angel have suported the Pagan faith.

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Please, please, please let's differentiate between Catholic and Protestant Christianity. There are glaring differences. Only the last program mentioned above had any Catholic trappings. The rest are, essentially, non-denominational Protestant recruiting posters... not that there's anything wrong with that. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/rolleyes.gif



[This message has been edited by LCM (edited 08-09-2001).]

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Originally posted by Lord Kjeran:

Canon law does allow priest[s] to marry. [T]he current convention of practice does not.

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The stricture has greater weight than simply the "current convention of practice" for those who were raised Catholic and took their vows from within the embrace of Holy Mother Church.

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"Holy orders are am impediment to marriage, but marriage is not an impediment to holy orders." In other words, if a man is a priest, under canon law he can never marry, but a married man can still become a priest (although there are only eight married priests in the US that I know of and they are all former Episcopal[ians]).

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And, as I said above, even this can be set aside by a dispensation.

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There are Churches in Communion with the Holy See that allow marriage for priest[s] (following the above guideline)--the Byzantine Catholics, the Rumanian Catholics, the Ukranian Catholics, etc. They are under the umbrella of the Holy See and subservient to the Holy Father. However they follow the Eastern rites (i.e., Orthodox).

As to the Schism of 1056, it occurred because of a difference in belief over the Primacy of the Pope as the greatest of the Patriarchs. No more, no less. As my medieval history prof stated, there were other issues, but they were ancillary.

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As a both a Catholic and a Catholic theologian, Lord Kieran, I was aware of all you mentioned above (the Byzantine "reconciliation" occurred in A.D. 1438, if I'm not mistaken). Of course, most Greek Orthodox adherents found the accommodation an abomination: According to some sources, the phrase, "Better the turban than the mitre" (as in, "We'd prefer to live under Ottoman suzerainty rather than kowtowing to a bishop in Rome exceeding his authority") became common in Constantinople during the years before the city's fall in A.D. 1453.

As to the causes of the Schism: There's a difference between something being the only issue--"no more, no less," as you say--and it being the primary issue, which it clearly was. Your medieval history professor's position is one that some historians and theologians might dispute.

While I agree that it was a pissing contest between the Pope and the Patriarch, they were only too happy to add whatever fuel to the fire they could.

And you're right, we are off topic. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by LCM (edited 08-10-2001).]

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Originally posted by LCM:
Please, please, please let's differentiate between Catholic and Protestant Christianity. There are glaring differences. Only the last program mentioned above had any Catholic trappings. The rest are, essentially, non-denominational Protestant recruiting posters... not that there's anything wrong with that. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/rolleyes.gif

I think I caught about 10 minutes of Touched by an Angel after a hefty night clubbing...

There struck me as being MANY things wrong with it... But I dont think that my opinion of the show as Sentimental Crap holds any weight in a religious debate. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by LCM (edited 08-09-2001).]

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DanG.

"Hi, I'm Commander Troy McClure, you might remember me from other academy training holo-simulations as, Abandon Ship, the quickest way out, and I sense danger, 101 things you dont need a Betazoid to know..."

http://www.theventure.freeserve.co.uk