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I could see a small increase in the birth rate of Half-Elves in the 4th Age. As most of them returned home, some of the small amount that did stay, like the Wandering Companies IMS, could marry outside the Race and their offspring would half-elven. This is not say it wouldn't still be a reare occurance, but I think it would happen a bit more then it did in previous ages.
Why would an Elf choose to marry a human who will die long before they do when they could simply journey to Valinor and live forever amoung their own people?
It's possible, but I just can't see it happening on a racial level.
Also, just remember that forcing an Elf to mate would result in their death, according to Tolkien.
But does this thought process count for the Avari since they never went to Valinor?
Didn't they also not see the light or something?
What I was describing was for all Elves in ME. Tolkien said that the Avari who refused to go to Valinor would eventually fade away, becoming a rustic folk of glen and dale, who would probably form some of the basis for later day folk tales and legends concerning 'Fairies'.
Check this out:
http://www.ansereg.com/what_tolkien_...y_said_abo.htm
It's helpful to have an idea of what Tolkien conceived as Elven psychology. They had vastly different perspectives on life in Arda than Men did. Check this out as well:
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/86105
At some point though I have to make this my game and not what i think tolkien would have done.
I understand the stuff you have been sighting, but in the end, I still have to run a game for a bunch of players who have little appreciation beyond maybe having reading the books once and having seen the movies.
Not that I don't appreciate the guidence, I do. Keep it coming :)
I shall nag you no more! ;-)
Please post anything from the game if you can, I'd be really interested to hear about it!
There is no Nag :) I find your posts extremely helpful :)Quote:
Originally posted by Manveru
I shall nag you no more! ;-)
Please post anything from the game if you can, I'd be really interested to hear about it!
And yes I shall indeed post what happens :)
Here is the first and roughest draft of the timeline of events leading up to my campaign.
It is designed to show the major points of history for the 4th Age and hint at things that may be important to the players.
Let me know what you think and if I should add anything.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Timeline for The New Shadow
March 25th, F.A. 1 – According to Gondor this is the beinging of the Fourth Age.
July 1st, F.A. 41 - Buckland and the Westmarch are officially incorporated into the Shire by order of King Elessar.
F.A. 63 - Death of King Éomer of Rohan ; he is succeeded by his son Elfwine .
F.A. 99 - Durin VII becomes King under the Mountain.
F.A. 101 – Aldarion is born to King Elessar and Queen Arwen.
F.A. 120 - Death of King Aragorn II Elessar of Gondor; he is succeeded by his son Eldarion.
May 23rd, F.A. 139 – Durin VII and his company reenter Khazad-dûm.
October 11th, F.A. 171 – Durin VII reports that Khazad-dûm is now completely in the hands of the Dwarves and reopens the mines.
F.A. 172 - A copy of the Red Book of Westmarch is completed in Gondor by Findegil , the King's Writer . This is the last event chronicled by Tolkien.
F.A. 189 – Aldamir is born to King Eldarion.
February 3rd, F.A. 209 - King Eldarion is killed when his horse throws him while hunting. As the horse was a gift from Rohan, the Rohirrim decry the accusations that one of their horses threw its' rider. The Steward of Gondor refuses to retract the statement. This insult is not soon forgotten in Rohan. Eldarion is succeeded by his son Aldamir II.
April 12th, F.A. 299 - King Aldamir II sends Captain Dolomir and a contingent of 100 men, retainers, diplomats and loremasters into the Far East to formalize relations. This is done at the behest of his advisors.
June 21st, F.A. 299 - Captain Dolomir passes the farthest Gondorian outpost and into the East.
November 9th, F.A. 304 – Daerion is born to King eldarion and his third wife.
January 17th, F.A. 309 – King Aldamir II dies in his sleep of natural causes, he was 120 years old.
February 12th, F.A. 309 - King Daerion is crowned King of the Reunited Kingdom. He is only 5 years of age, the Stewards of Gondor and Arnor see to the day to day running of the Kingdom.
December 11t h, F.A. 315 – Dolomir returns with his company (including many Easterlings or various groups) and reports complete success in his mission.
January 3rd, F.A. 315 – Dolomir is named Steward of Mordor after his plan for the reclaiming of that land is approved.
April 14t h, F.A. 315 – The first Dwarves from Khazad-dûm arrive to help rebuild Minas Ithil, the first step in Dolomir’s plan.
June 12th, F.A. 320 – Against the wishes of his advisors, King Daerion dispatches a company to Rivendell. Their mission is to ascertain why the orcs and other fell creatures are on the move again. The group is led by Belengol the Green, a wizard and loremaster.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Neat timeline, Aslan.
I'm curious though; Captain Dolomir was given only 100 men, all retainers, diplomats, and loremasters, to go into the East alone? Wouldn't this act be quite foolhardy? 100 men, almost none of them warriors, would stand no chance at all against any Easterling force, or against even an angry mob!
But perhaps I don't know all the story; perhaps Dolomir is really a traitor, that'd be neat. I'm sure you'll have a good explanation! :)
Well given that everyone's hero (but not mine) Elessar had already brought the Easterlings under heel (as well as the Southrons) I figured they wouldn't need so many men to go to a place they saw as friendly or at least neutral.
Therein lays my logic :)
Perhaps I could increase it to 1000.
Thoughts?
It says in RotK that Aragon:
"...pardoned the Easterlings that had given themselves up, and sent them away free, and he made peace with the peoples of Harad; and the slaves of Mordor he released and gave to them all the lands about Lake Núrnen to be their own."
This makes leads me to imagine that the East is still largely untamed, and the South surely will have deep embers of hate that could possibly be set aflame.
So yep, I'd increase the number a bit. :D
1000 might be actually too much, scaring the inhabitants, but I'm not sure. In Appendix A, Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion, when Gondor sends reinforcements north to Arnor it says this:
So great in Draught and so many were [Earnur's] ships that they could scarcely find harbourage, though both the Harlond and the Forlond also were filled; and from them descended an army of power, with munition and provision for a war of great kings. Or so it seemed to the people of the North, though this was but a small sending-force of the whole might of Gondor.
From this passage I mean to show how powerful Gondor was, around the year 1973 of the Third Age. Since it is now the year 299 of the Fourth Age, a great amount of the might of Gondor may have been reclaimed by this time. Meaning that the force could easily be a few thousand if need be.
If too many came, of course, it might frighten the Easterlings, or they might declare war, whereas the intentions of that force are to mediate an alliance.
So probably a few extra hundred warriors might suffice. Of course, whatever you think is best is good. :)
But am I crazy of did not in King elessar's reign he conquor the East and the South?
I am sure I read that some where... anyone?
Here are a couple page references in the Core Book which you may have read:
Page 71: Last paragraph under Men of Darkness.
Page 33: Last paragraph under Umbar.
Page 33: Last paragraph under Harad.
Page 33: Last paragraph under Rhun.
All these seem to suggest that King Elessar made peace or conquered them, but they continued to make trouble for a while. Even FA 300 or so, at the time of your game, the conquered South could easily contain firebrands that would anger the people into rebellion, and the East could not possibly be entirely conquered.
In fact, looking at the major map, it says "Map of the West of Middle-earth". Perhaps suggesting that there is a whole "East of Middle-earth" that is uncharted? If it's the about the same size as the West of Middle-earth and contains even half as many people, it could be a big problem/solution of interesting quality. :)
Looks pretty good, Aslan. I think you've brought Durin VII (and last) on stage too soon in the game (IMO, there should be a few generations between Thorin III and him), but otherwise it has good potential.
-Chris Landmark
Thanks Chris.Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Landmark
Looks pretty good, Aslan. I think you've brought Durin VII (and last) on stage too soon in the game (IMO, there should be a few generations between Thorin III and him), but otherwise it has good potential.
I bring in Durin VII based on a Michael Martinez article that started this whole affair for me.
And I quote :)
So therein lies my reasioning for the palcing of Durin VII. :)Quote:
in The Peoples of Middle-earth we learn that Durin VII, the Dwarven king destined to restore the Longbeard Dwarves to Moria, would probably have been the son of Thorin III Stonehelm, the son of Dain II Ironfoot. Thorin III was born in the year 2866 of the Third Age, and he would have been 153 years old when his father died in the War of the Ring. Thorin probably would not have lived to the end of Aragorn's reign (though Gimli, who was born in TA 2879, did live that long). Hence, Durin VII became King under the Mountain around the year Fourth Age 100.
When did the Longbeard Dwarves return to Moria? Maybe early in Durin's reign, but probably not until after Aragorn's death. Undoubtedly the event would have occurred before the year 172 of the Fourth Age, when Findegil made the last recorded note in the Thain's Copy of the Red Book of Westmarch. So the recovery of Moria probably occurred between the years 120 and 172. Such an event would have resulted, perhaps, in one of the last wars with Orcs before the time of The New Shadow. Borlas, the aged protagonist of The New Shadow, could smell "the old evil", which apparently was the evil represented by the true Orcs, former servants of Sauron, and other creatures. Perhaps he would have fought these creatures in his youth.
Well I have decided to use the world map provided with the MERP supplement Adventure & Campaign Guide. I just like that map :)Quote:
Originally posted by ben hur
In fact, looking at the major map, it says "Map of the West of Middle-earth". Perhaps suggesting that there is a whole "East of Middle-earth" that is uncharted? If it's the about the same size as the West of Middle-earth and contains even half as many people, it could be a big problem/solution of interesting quality. :)
Moved here as requested .........
You know if you want big bad you could always use Thuringwethil the messenger of Morgoth. She used to run around as a bat a lot, but nobody knows what happened to her.
Maybe Sauron's death woke her up & she is out doing evil things again. She is not quite a Sauron threat without a ring, but she is still a big threat & allows you to bring in a new name.
Interesting idea, she would make an excellent replacement for the whole Morlob/Shelob idea or an extension of it :)
What do we know about Tolkien's vampires? They have Bat-wings but can take human form right?
What about sunlight? Drinking blood? Etc... ?
There is a Vampire write up in Fell Beasts and Wondrous Magic, complete with stats for a Vampire-Bat.
Contrary to popular thoughts on vampires in most other RPGs, these vampires are not technically Undead. Basically, a "Tolkienian" vampire is an evil spirit that can possess a mortal body. It can then masquerade (pardon the reference to "that other game" ;)) as that person.
Under the possession of a vampire spirit, the mortal body decays and gains Corruption and can be "healed" by consuming blood. The vampire spirit can enter and leave the possessed body at will and take the form of a bat. They can only possess Men, Hobbits, and Dwarves. No mention is made of "staking the heart" or any vulnerability to sunlight, but you can mimic actual vampire mythology by ruling that by day a vampire cannot use any of its special abilities or spells. (Vampires turning to dust in sunlight is an invention of Hollywood).
Interesting.
But they can't posses elves eh?
Cool.
I will have to read up on this :)
Here is another interesting concept you might want to explore in your 4th Age campaign.
Were-worms
Check this reference page in the Encyclopedia of Arda:
http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/w/wereworms.html
Since you are having some "bad guys" coming in from the East anyway, one of them could be just such a were-worm. As the article says, Tolkien only ever mentioned them once, and you are therefore pretty much free to detail them as you see fit! :)
In "Tolkienite" circles Michael Martinez has got a bit of a mixed reputation. He does write some really good, thought provoking things, but at other times you wonder what he was thinking. This is one of them (for me, at least).Quote:
Originally posted by AslanC
Thanks Chris.
I bring in Durin VII based on a Michael Martinez article that started this whole affair for me.
You see, the passages he's referring to in The Peoples of Middle Earth (which indicate that Durin VII is Thorin III's son) are from early drafts of Appendix A. The geneology chart for the lords of the house of Durin was amended before publication with a dotted line between Thorin III and Durin VII, suggesting the span of some generations rather than direct primogeniture.
It's kind of like saying that Aragorn is a hobbit, because in the early drafts of the Lord of the Rings he was a Hobbit named Trotter.:D
OK, so it's not really that bad, but you can see my point hopefully. Not that you need to change your game or anything just because I've got a problem with your history; I'm not in your game, after all, and you don't have to listen to me complain about it every week.:p
Just a little FYI.
-Chris Landmark
Cool I can see that, but as I have stated I won't let Tolkienisim stop me :) I respect what the man wrote, but I've got a game to run ;)Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Landmark
In "Tolkienite" circles Michael Martinez has got a bit of a mixed reputation. He does write some really good, thought provoking things, but at other times you wonder what he was thinking. This is one of them (for me, at least).
LOL! Noted and filed away :)Quote:
OK, so it's not really that bad, but you can see my point hopefully. Not that you need to change your game or anything just because I've got a problem with your history; I'm not in your game, after all, and you don't have to listen to me complain about it every week.:p
Since this came up in another thread and I am trying to cull all my threads together here :)
From the Encyclopedia of Arda
"These were the Mearas, noble horses that lived as long as a Man, and had extraordinary strength and intelligence. Throughout their history, they would only allow themselves to be ridden by the Lord of the Mark or his sons. This long tradition was broken by Gandalf, who managed to train the greatest of the Mearas of his time, Shadowfax, and rode that mighty horse throughout the War of the Ring."
So given that Mearas only let the Lord of the Mark or his sons ride, how can I explain the fact that Erynae has one (amed Ashwind, that once was the steed of Prince Alfien)?
Well I think that this is one of those Gandalf cases. The horses simply chose to let her ride him. Maybe it recognizes in her that she will someday change the way the Shieldmaidens of Rohan are viewed, or that she may someday become the first Queen of Rohan.
It is just one of those things :)
Neat idea.Quote:
Originally posted by Camdin
Here is another interesting concept you might want to explore in your 4th Age campaign.
Were-worms
Not sure how I would use it, except for maybe a race of Dragon Lords like the Melnibonians or some such...
Hmmm... an island of Dragon Lords... now that has potential :)
So we had our first session back on Friday night, and since we had to rebuild the characters from the ground up, we didn't get much time to play.
That said it was fun.
They made it through the Gap of Rohan with no troubles and then headed up the South Road towards Tharbad.
They got ambused in the rain one night by a scout party of Orcs bearing a red skull symbol.
They managed to deafeat them (with minor injuries taken by the group) and then mad for Tharbad. It didn't take Barahir (the ranger) long to notice the tracks of the Orc war party that had sent the scouts. When Andunae (the elf) rode up from her rear guard position, she confirmed the Orcs were on their tail.
Barahir, realising that they couldn't make Tharbad in time, suggested they ride off the road to the Dunland Pass, a gap in the mountains that they could defend.
Ilian (the Knight of Dol Amroth) and Gror (the dwarf) hung back to be a rear surprise once the orcs hit the pass and the others, under the guidence of Arendan (the Captain of Arnor) they managed to block the pass with brush and then waited.
The war party arrived... nearly 100 orcs (1 hit villains) strong with 10 Uruks (3 hit) calling the shots.
The fight was brutal, though without Barahir and Andunae laying down as much bowfire as they could at range, it might not have gone as well.
Illian and Gror did plenty of damage from the rear and Erynae's (the Shield maiden of Rohan) armour's special ability triggered (Display of Power).
As the morning light broke they road hard for tharabad to rest before continuing to Rivendell.
So now they are in Tharbad. I need to know everything anyone can tell me about the place. The Encyclopedia of Arda is scanty on the details and the MERP info is way too D&D (a Thieves Quarter no less).
Any ideas?
The session sounds like it was fun, Aslan...it makes me wish my own LotR game hadn't folded... :(
Anyway, as far as Tharbad is concerned, it only came into play for my group back in the old MERP days, but we used it as a trade center, which seemed to fit, given its location. Rustic, yet very mercantile=oriented, it was home to mostly Middle Men and Dunedain, with a few members of the other races (a couple Dwarves ran the local smithy, if I remember correctly).
Our game took place before Aragorn ascended to the throne at the end of the Third Age, so at that point Tharbad was just getting rebuilt (if I remember correctly, there was a rather famous stone bridge that crossed a river there, which, in our campaign Dwarves and Men rebuilt together, to help forge a stronger friendship). In a Fourth Age campaign, it could fall under the auspices of Arnor, maybe serving as a frontier trading community, or as a border town between the Northern and Southern Kingdoms (sort of a middle ground, perhaps). Or, maybe it remains independent, under the protection of the Reunited Kingdom, but ruled by its own officials.
One of the things that I like about Tharbad is that, between its relatively good location for stories and adventures, and the lack of written detail about it, it makes a great spot to use in campaigns. Given that, it really depends on what direction you want to take Tharbad. If it's just a one-stop for the PC's, and they won't be there much (or for long), then there's not much to do with it. If they'll be using it often, and stopping in frequently, I'm sure that the members of the board would be willing to help you flesh out Tharbad to make it suitably useable (at least, I wouldn't mind helping out here and there).
In any event, good luck with the campaign. Sounds like it'll be fun! :)
Greg
The city was flooded and destroyed in the year 2911 of the Third Age. Depending on how far into the Fourth Age you are playing, Tharbad could be just a small growing village, a larger community just starting to rebuild stone buildings, or -- if you are playing hundreds or more years into the age -- a large, thriving city as it was in its glory days.
In short, Tharbad is pretty much yours to make up! :)
Thanks for the info guys :)
I had read in the MERP stuff that it was a port city, some 250 miles from the sea. Now living on the St Lawrence river I have no doubt such things are very very possible. But that said is the Greyflood deep enough you suppose for that type of city?
Perhaps for flat-bottmed river barges and longboat-style sea craft as used by the Vikings.Quote:
Originally posted by AslanC
But that said is the Greyflood deep enough you suppose for that type of city?
Than again, in the lack of any further geological details provided by "The Professor," you can have it be deep as you want! :)
I have decided to add another element to my game which will be that when they reach Rivendell they will meet a noble man from Far Harad, a Prince in fact. Later in the game it will be his sister who they (the Morgothians) will try to marry to young King Daerion in return for control (through the family of the Princess) of Umbar.
Now the Prince they meet will be one of two sons not seduced by the Cult and who has come North to seek out Rivendell for advice.
This has lead to me having to come up with Haradrim names. This leaves much to be desired in the Tolkien work, since there isn't much source material (aside from the MERP stuff).
So working with actual Arabic here are some of the words and names I have come up with in Haradrim...
Anahara - Flower of the desert
Farahyam - Happiness of the sea
Anasakir –Hawk of the desert
Ana’asad –Lion of the desert
Ananisir –Eagle of the desert
Emira –Princess
Emir –Prince
Elakeh - Queen
Elasha –King
Ibin –Son of
Bina –Daughter of
Elzarkra –The Grey One
Zafajhir – The fast dawn, Sudden daybreak
Elakabish – Queen of the spiders.
So the Prince they meet will be; Emir Ana'asad ibin Anasakir - Or; Prince Ana'asad son of Anasakir
His brother will be; Emir Ananisir ibin Anasakir - Or; Prince Ananisir son of Anasakir
The sister will be; Emira Anahara bina Farahyam - Or; Princess Anahara daughter of Farahyam
Why has this Prince come to the North and specifically Rivendell? The idea is that his father was struck dead by his brother Anaisir and his mother Farahyam, who are both part of the Morgothian Cult (in the South it is Spider motifed). Seeking for knowledge on this topic, Ana'asad ride into the desert and there he was tormented by Effrit who showed him vision of Elzarkra (Gandalf) and how he had come centuries before and told the Elasha of that time that council against the Enemy awaited them in Rivendell (Called Wadi'isnajim = Valley of the star).
Also this is where Shelob/Morlob has been sent, transformed into a pale human female, to create the cult and turn the south back to serving darkness. There she is known only as Elakabish – Queen of the spiders.
This is all I have right now, aside from his fine Haradric charger (horse) is the rival of any horse of Rohan (though much smaller by a long shot) and is called Zafajhir – The fast dawn, Sudden daybreak.
Any thoughts? :)
How about this then. Tharbad serves as the last place where deep keel ships can arrive, the bridge denying anything but flat bottomed barges the northern parts of the greyflood.Quote:
Originally posted by Camdin
Perhaps for flat-bottmed river barges and longboat-style sea craft as used by the Vikings.
Than again, in the lack of any further geological details provided by "The Professor," you can have it be deep as you want! :)
That way, since there is no city at the mouth of the Greyflood, it would make sense that Tharbad is the port city :)
In my chronicle the characters will go to Tharbad as well. I like the way MERP portayed in Thieves of Tharbad (with the canals and such) so I adapted Tharbad to be more like Venice (with all the intrigue associated with it).
My chronicle is set around TA 2907, a couple of years before Tharbad is destroyed by the Great Flood of 2912 TA. I picture it as a city full of corruption and decay, where a small elite group of rich nobles and merchants feasts everyday on carnavalesque balls while the masses fight among each other for food.
Isn't it said somewhere that the Numenoreans used Tharbad as a haven, or port? That way sea-going vessels are able to dock there.
On the other hand, Earnur's fleet docked at Mithlond...
Tharbad looks about just as far away from Fornost as Mithlond does... and Tharbad seems to be closer to Gondor as well.Quote:
Originally posted by Meneltin
Isn't it said somewhere that the Numenoreans used Tharbad as a haven, or port? That way sea-going vessels are able to dock there.
On the other hand, Earnur's fleet docked at Mithlond...
However, I believe that in the appendix it specifically states that the ships in the fleet were impressively huge and of "great drought"... and I think drought means how deep in the water it goes?
So I'm not whether they could enter the Greyflood to reach Tharbad, though possibly smaller ships could. If Tharbad was a Numenorean port in the first place.
It's definitely an interesting idea. It'd also seem relatively safe from Corsairs, as the Greyflood is pretty long, and if enemies entered the river then alarm (sent by horse to Tharbad) would be allowed a sizable amount of time to be spread.
So it is decided that Tharbad is the point in the river where the keels cannot pass, for the level is no longer deep enough :)
As to my attempt at Haradric, I assume by the complete lack of reply that everyone thinks it was great? ;)
It sounded Arabic enough for me to be convinving Haradic?/Haradaic?/whatever...Quote:
Originally posted by AslanC
As to my attempt at Haradric, I assume by the complete lack of reply that everyone thinks it was great? ;)
thank you Meneltin :)Quote:
Originally posted by Meneltin
It sounded Arabic enough for me to be convinving Haradic?/Haradaic?/whatever...
My only regret is that I cannot really create a Muslim style religion, since there is no 1 God in the Tolkien world.
Actually, that's not entirely accurate, Aslan. Eru, or Illuvatar, is the one God of Middle-earth. The Valar, while often mistaken for Gods, are more akin to angels, with them acting as the guardians of Middle-earth and the servants and companions of Eru.Quote:
Originally posted by AslanC
thank you Meneltin :)
My only regret is that I cannot really create a Muslim style religion, since there is no 1 God in the Tolkien world.
You might want to take a look at the Silmarillion for further clarification, as well as various entries in the History of Middle-earth volumes.
In any event, even if you go with the Valar being gods, there's no reason why, just because the people of Northwestern Middle-earth follow this belief that all the peoples of Middle-earth have to. Maybe they just worship Eru, and ignore the Valar altogether, or perhaps they only revere one of the Valar, or perhaps a Maia who walks among them (a living god, in a sense).
There seems to be lots of possibilities here, depending on what you really want to do, and how much of a role you want religion to play in your chronicle.
Greg
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