[New Frontier] What Do You Think?

Man, I just wanna say that this thread has turned into comedy gold. :D

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Originally posted by Phantom
Ok, now I know how some of the other people I have argued with in the past feel.:) I have already, repeated said that I agree the Mugato was silly, McHenry's background somewhat over the top, and Lefler's mom dosen't really factor in as, to my knowledge, she is a background character (ie Q) and Robin doesn't have any special abilities from her mother. Ok, great. A given...I take your point. Now, let's see;

1 silly idea.
1 somewhat powerful main character.
1 powerful NPC, if you will.
1Hermat with roughly equivalant in fighting ability and agility as I remember the Caitians (Regulans) being.
1 guy that is immune to lower level phaser settings, not a big deal as that is what the power setting switch is for.

Equals;
1 Guy who knows where he is spatially. Did they add any really big super powers to McHenry.
1 Guy immune to phasers on low settings.
1 Hermat who is what the equivalent of...oh, I don't know...hmmm, Worf/Odo/Garak in h-to-h.

We're not exactly talking the Justice League here are we? I've seen more powerful characters in some of the games I've run, and at lower levels.

Your Honours do we have any further evidence? Or does the prosecution wish to continue beating me about the head with the same facts?:D

Note: that was a joke.:)

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Okay. The problem here is not that I'm trying to beat you over the head with anything. That would be most impolite! My point, by reiterating what I have already said, is that I think you're minimalizing the superness of the characters that have already been mentioned. Dismissing them as common to the Trek universe. I never read any of the books where McHenry's powers were realized; in the ones I read, he was always just a lazy guy with his feet up on the helm station. So, to be honest, I didn't care one way or the other about him, as relates to the discussion. Then, someone mentioned he was the grandson of Apollo. I don't think his spatial awareness powers (or whatever they are) sound too bad. It's crazy, sure. But on the whole, no crazier than a sexy Borg super-hottie, or a geneticially enhanced CMO with the super ability to shoot darts with perfect accuracy.

As for the hermie, I do think her fighting skills were a bit more than on par with Worf or Garak. maybe she was on par with Odo, admittedly, because he can do that whole terminator 2 liquid thing. Worf was just a guy with some very good, solid training. The fact that he was a klingon warrior meant nothing because even Picard can whup the average Klingon in h-t-h. Same with garak, I reckon. He was just a well trained...er...tailor. Neither Klingons nor Cardies are so much stronger than humans that a guy like Picard can't whup them with some Kirk-fu-fighting. Worf is just a good fighter, plain and simple. He's every bit as vulnerable to a punch to the gut, a phaser blast a wrist lock or a good old fashioned kick to the jimmy. He's an awesome fighter. And he has Klingon strength. That strength was never shown as a factor, however. When they needed super strength, they turned to Data. Odo, of course, was super. No two ways about it. Data was super, again, no two ways about it, and to a degree, Seven of Nine was as well (for toher reasons...heh). Wes, Deanna and geordi are roughly on the same scale as Mchenry in "superness." They have abilities or qualities that others don't. The difference is that their origins are really rather normal. McHenry's obviously are not. having a "god" as your granddad opens up a lot of possibilities.

And of, course, I mentioned Lefler's mom, merely out of suprise, because I had assumed Lefler was as normal as they come. having an immortal for a mom also opens up things. It's certainly not exactly normal, is it?

On each of the shows, we have a majority of the main cast being shown as essentially normal. They are all heroes, no doubt, so they strive beyond the achiements of contemporaries, but that's to be expected in a show about heroic characters. And they have either a limited share of super-types, or those super types are balanced out well. Deanna's telepathy, more than half the time basically just served to either reaffirm Picard's impressions of a situation, or occluded and hindered things. Wes was smart, but his inexperience made him take second or third place to geordi and Data. And his traveller abilities were rarely seen or used. And when they were used, they were highly problematic. Balance.

The NF crew seems to have an inordinate amount of super-types, who are poorly balanced. This is fine for the Avengers. or the Hulk. Or the X-Men. But for Star trek, it's over the top. It's like they took all the supers from all of the shows and stuffed them into the same ship.

Of course, this is just my opinion. When I read the books, that was my impression, but it was interesting to read this thread and see so many comments that mirrored what I was thinking when I read the stories. I hope you don't think that I'm bashing you simply because I am responding to your comments on this matter. My initial intent when I first responded to you was to try and elucidate on the points brought up by other posters about the super-ness of the characters. My contention is that "super" is not out of place in Trek. Just that, in NF, it is overdone.

With that said, let me also state that I don't have any problem with you disagreeing with me. It's like Dalton said, "Opinions vary..." ;)


Strictly Speaking

Kirk-fu fighting. I like that.:D

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Originally posted by strict31
Deanna's telepathy, more than half the time basically just served to either reaffirm Picard's impressions of a situation, or occluded and hindered things. Wes was smart, but his inexperience made him take second or third place to geordi and Data. And his traveller abilities were rarely seen or used. And when they were used, they were highly problematic. Balance.

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Don't forget her new feat (using CODA) "Targeting by Ouija Board." :rolleyes:

As you say opinions vary.

"Ok, now I know how some of the other people I have argued with in the past feel. " - Phantom


I made Don's sig! Hey, can he do that?!:D :cool:

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Originally posted by Phantom
Kirk-fu fighting. I like that.:D




Don't forget her new feat (using CODA) "Targeting by Ouija Board." :rolleyes:

As you say opinions vary.

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You have to wonder what Worf was thinking through that whole scene... "I can't believe I slept with this nutcase..."

And Michael Dorn was also probably thinking, "Jesus H! I'm the guy playing the weapons officer, can't they just let me have this one damned scene?" :D


Strictly Speaking

Note: This is mostly a tongue-in-cheek post, so don’t take it too seriously. :)

I think the point that may or not have been made thus far is that in all the other Trek series the characters – save perhaps one per series – were believable. (Yup, strict31 just made that point.) :D

While Riker was good-looking, charismatic, and a somewhat skilled tactician, he was essentially a normal guy. (A lot like myself, sans the rugged good looks. ;) )

Same with Picard. Beverly Crusher. Ensign Kim. Captain Janeway. Paris.

I’ll grant we have notables, but some were really more color than anything. Geordi’s “disability” added flavor and character depth. Wesley being a savant. Kirk being, well, Kirk.

Spock. Data. Odo. Seven of Nine. Those were the real standouts.

The real annoying thing about New Frontier characters is what I call the “Lucas Effect,” or “gosh, look how clever I am foreshadowing crap that already happened.” :rolleyes:

Talking mogatu? (“Look how clever I am, I worked in a TOS creature!”)
Horta in Starfleet (“Look, I did it again!”)
McHenry related to a god? (“I took a TOS episode and ran with it!”)
Lefler's mom? (“Look, another TOS reference! Go me!”)
Shelby (“Another TNG reference! It’s ‘Star Trek Castaways’!”)
Jellico (“I don’t have any original character ideas at all!”)
Brooding super-Calhoun? (“He’s hot like Riker, bad-ass like Kirk, and brooding like Sisko! I rock!”)
The Great Bird of the Galaxy? (I won’t even try it was so silly… :D )

Then we get a walking brick that can shrug off phaser shots and a hermit that goes around humping just about every other character.

It’s just that, to me, it was just waaaay too much of being beaten over the head with Trek references at every corner. I knew I was in trouble in the very first book when we’re introduced to Calhoun. There’s a throwaway line by Picard (?) about how he (Calhoun) was, or could have been, “the best there ever was.” Right there, before we’ve done anything, David anointed Calhoun above Kirk and everyone else. It was pretty hard taking anything serious after that point.

It was like freakin' Snake Plisken in a Starfleet uniform...

(Then talking bunny rabbits started appearing on the bridge. Remember that one?)

[Edit] Fixed a flub.

Now that was humour.

Bravo!

"Jellico (“I don’t have any original character ideas at all!”)"
This was my favourite.
:D

That is exactly the main problem I had with these novels. All of the characters are "unbelievable" where in other series most of the characters could have existed in real life that way.
Of course Riker was skilled - but he was the career guy - he sacrificed a lot for it. Picard is the same. The sacrifices he made are very well depictd in ST VII, I think.

Additionally these cameo appearances of several characters was too much as well I think. I liked the idea of a reappering Shelby but with all the others it was way too much, especially since all of those were former Enterprise Crew members, like Lefler that Doctor Selar (?), Shelby, Jellico, you name it.

And third I tihnk there are several canon mistakes. Since it is quite a while since I read the books, I do not remember them.

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Talking mogatu? (“Look how clever I am, I worked in a TOS creature!”)
Horta in Starfleet (“Look, I did it again!”)
McHenry related to a god? (“I took a TOS episode and ran with it!”)
Lefler's mom? (“Look, another TOS reference! Go me!”)
Shelby (“Another TNG reference! It’s ‘Star Trek Castaways’!”)
Jellico (“I don’t have any original character ideas at all!”)
Brooding super-Calhoun? (“He’s hot like Riker, bad-ass like Kirk, and brooding like Sisko! I rock!”)
The Great Bird of the Galaxy? (I won’t even try it was so silly… :D )


It’s just that, to me, it was just waaaay too much of being beaten over the head with Trek references at every corner. I knew I was in trouble in the very first book when we’re introduced to Calhoun. There’s a throwaway line by Picard (?) about how he (Calhoun) was, or could have been, “the best there ever was.” Right there, before we’ve done anything, David anointed Calhoun above Kirk and everyone else. It was pretty hard taking anything serious after that point.

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And again I say unto you: Bad fan fiction

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It was like freakin' Snake Plisken in a Starfleet uniform...

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LOL!


PS: "I thought you were dead"

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Originally posted by Evan van Eyk
Additionally these cameo appearances of several characters was too much as well I think. I liked the idea of a reappering Shelby but with all the others it was way too much, especially since all of those were former Enterprise Crew members, like Lefler that Doctor Selar (?), Shelby, Jellico, you name it.

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Awwwa crap, I totally forgot about Selar! Okay, here we go:

[Addendum to list]
Dr. Selar ("Look, another TNG reference! I'z gotz the MADZ 5K!LLZ!")

I swear, I was waiting for freakin' Bobba Fett to appear in the books at one point. :D ("I will make every TNG supporting cast member appear at some point in my novels and utterly destroy their characterizations, thus ruining any enjoyment that you may have had for them.")

Hey, did Ensign Ro ever show up? ;)

I think Diane Dunane was responsible for the Horta security guard... talk about someone who's Trek writing I just can't stand... :shudder: I mean come on, I will have a floating crystal snowflake in Starfleet and a talking Dolphin, but they will essentially act human. Oh how alien! Bah...

And as to Uhura being able to speak many languages, don't forget that comic genius moment (sarcasm) in Trek 6 (as you all know my fav) where they have to get out the old (ancient) hard bound English to Klingon dictionaries to fool the border station.

Back to Peter David. I am rereadng my DC Movie Era comics right now, and as you may know the second series was written by David. Is it just me or does this guy hav no clue about Star Trek? All his new alien races belong in Star Wars or Farscape. Especially the honred devil navigator girl. Sheehs... and don't even get me started on the Worthy... who ever called this guys writing fanfic was dead on the money.

Oh, and Jellico a jerk? I don't know, all my friends (who were raised on TOS and not TNG) thought he was a refreshing change of pace who acted a lot more like a commanding officer instead of the team facilitator Picard could be.

YMMV

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Originally posted by AslanC

Oh, and Jellico a jerk? I don't know, all my friends (who were raised on TOS and not TNG) thought he was a refreshing change of pace who acted a lot more like a commanding officer instead of the team facilitator Picard could be.

YMMV

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Exactly.

Feh. I like the books. They don't take themselves too seriously.

Unfortunately, some folks just can't STAND anybody not taking Star Trek as seriously as they do.

NF is all about fan faves. That's why all the characters who crossed over from TNG were popular, yet rather undeveloped characters.

As for Kebron and Soleta, they were characters from PD's Starfleet Academy books. Worf's classmates. (Put a Klingon in Starfleet! How fannish is that??)

Or the new characters, Arex and M'Ress, the popular animated characters who would likely never have appeared outside of animation, unless it was a book.

(Personally, I wish he had the right to bring in Niven's Kzin, but apparently he doesn't)

Anyway, I'm in the minority, I know. But I don't care, so :p

:D

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Originally posted by First of Two
Feh. I like the books. They don't take themselves too seriously.

Unfortunately, some folks just can't STAND anybody not taking Star Trek as seriously as they do.

NF is all about fan faves. That's why all the characters who crossed over from TNG were popular, yet rather undeveloped characters.

As for Kebron and Soleta, they were characters from PD's Starfleet Academy books. Worf's classmates. (Put a Klingon in Starfleet! How fannish is that??)

Or the new characters, Arex and M'Ress, the popular animated characters who would likely never have appeared outside of animation, unless it was a book.

(Personally, I wish he had the right to bring in Niven's Kzin, but apparently he doesn't)

Anyway, I'm in the minority, I know. But I don't care, so :p

:D

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Opinions, again vary. I would only point out that as far as not taking Trek seriously, there were many episodes that didn't take themselves seriously and were quite hilarious, so, at least in my case, that has nothing to do with NF.

In fact, to be quite honest, having read Peter David's other work, I was actually expecting the humor. I was expecting light hearted. So, that's really not a factor in my case.


Strictly Speaking

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Originally posted by First of Two
(Personally, I wish he had the right to bring in Niven's Kzin.

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This is quite possibly the only thing that would turn me against the series.