Not your average Trek vs. Wars...

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Originally Posted by C5

Meanwhile....
- We are the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender unconditionnally...
- *ksshhht*Now you'll obey me*kshhhht*
- We are the Borg. We serve the Empire.

:D

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This would be something much more dangerous then a Dominion v Borg war . . . which some discribe as an ultimate battle in the Star Trek Universe.

Imagine dropping a borg cube ontop of Imperial Courscant. Imagine the implications . . . imagine the wake in the force that would have . . . imagine . . . if a lone Federation ship followed it through the transwarp conduit . . . a one way mission . . . but in seperate parts of the Star Wars galaxy . . . say the lone Federation ship over Mon Calamari

Imagine the roleplaying possibilities!

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Originally Posted by Phoenix

As for the "M" word in Trek, I'm just tired of hearing about it, sorry about the snapish reply. Both sides are well entrenched.

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Don't forget about the third party that used to take the middle ground. But we where to busy running for cover when the flame wars started :D

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Originally Posted by C5

I love this sort of discussions, especially because they can never be quite solved and you can find endless new and funny ideas including both universes. I really love cross overs, actually.

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So do I. At least as long no one starts to take it to religiously.

I have no problem with the 'M' word as long as it stays out of Canon material (post Enterprise of course), and as far away from me as possible :D Fanboys have just the same freedom of expression as everyone else :D

Crossovers are one thing, because at least then there is a reason behind things, what I do intensilly dislike is Genre mixing for no reason... aka Trek characters with Light sabres, because they are 1337 :D

Hmm you know what would be fun (crossover or not) that lone Starfleet ship using the under-used aspect of Ships phasers... Stun MUAHAHAHAA :D

But yes, it has to be said that the Borg in the SW universe would be frightening, moreso than in Trek, because of the number of habited planets, all with just SO MUCH ship technology, and (relativelly) much shorter travel distances! We forget the Borg are not just killing machines, they assimilate too.. It only takes one drone to get on one small ship, and they have assimilated hyperdrive technology, turbolasers, blasters, and how their shield technology works and everything! Then it's uh oh time!, because Wars is a fairly stable technological level, indeed, with the exception of the Death star, it goes down before ANH, from the prequel trilogy! :)

I remind someone (I forgot who :o) once posted on these boards what would happen should a Borg cube venter into Empire territory :
First Borg cube is destroyed by a Star Destroyer.
Second Borg cube destroys half of the Empire Fleet before being critically damaged by the Death Star and eventually finished by the remains of the Fleet.
Third Borg cube assimilate the entire Empire.

I think the only thing that could help the SW-verse against the Borg might be the Force. It seems the Borg are not too much comfortable against psi powers, and they'd have a hard time adapting to telekinesis and such... not to mention mind tricks, which could endanger a drone link to the Collective. On the other hand, should a Jedi be assimilated and the Force another Borg weapon...

Another funny thought : TOS planet killer could be a later model of the DeathStar...

We haven't even dealt with Species 8472 either LOL - those guys are powerful enough with Psionics, that they would be a massive threat to even powerful Force users! They also have drive technology which is comparable (i.e. easilly just as fast, much as Borg Transwarp conduits are) and get together 9 of their ships - HAHAHAHAHA byebye Death Star! They could easilly pick of even executor level capital ships, just like the Death Star did! :D

Going back to the Dominion: I am not really that convinced they would be as effective agains the colective as people think... For one, the Dominion was scary because a) they had huge numbers of ships, b) they were slightly more technologically avanced than the Federation and c) they were powerful spapeshifters..

Ok well A) huge numbers of small ships would be pointless against the Borg, because as soon as they adapted to their shields, they would begin assimilating, and Jem Hadar Drones would be formidable! Smaller ships would just make picking them off faster, as Drones beamed on to them, rapidly assimilating the very few crew!
B) The Borg surpassed the Dominion and has the distinct advantage it can turn you into it.
C) The founders had fun unballancing politics and giving people the runaround, which gave them a decided advantage. All of that would be rendered useless against the collective, as there are no politics! A shapeshifter would have a hard time disguising himself as a Borg drone, as their collective would identify he was not one of them (akak not connected to the network)!

Also, The Borg are capable of amassing an armada, and as a much larger 'war' force is present, than with Alpha quadrant powers, they would send one. They scale the invasion relative to a) the worth of their foe to them (I.e how many goodies and cool technology they can pinch!) and b) how much of a tactical threat it is: So really, as a better prize, they would likelly send out more than one cube! :D The great Link is also a huge vulnerability to the Dominion, as most of the Founders all live in one place.. A Single Founder assimilated would reveal where to find them, and without the Founders, the Dominion would flat out collapse!

I think the thing that people have to consider with sitatons like "The Borg in SW" is that the Federation isn't as big or powerful as the Repulbic/Empire in SW. I think that while the Federation seems to have a qualitive edge in ships and crews, the Republic/Empire can muster a lot more forces. This would give them a better chance against the Borg that people seem to be giving them.

Both ST and SW seem t have the undelying rules that "good will triumph over evil" and "man is better than machine". I think the Borg would be defeated in either universe, just that it would probably take longer and be blodier in the SW one.



BTW, Bad news on finding my D20 SW and CODA Dalek write-ups. I've search the hard drive, but can't find the file (heck, I can't even locate the folder-and it had other stuff like a D20 cyberman supplement I had downloaded). I DID find some of my notes, tucked in between my FASA WHO and TIMELORD rpgs, so I should be able to recreate the file. I started work on it last night, and should finish it up in a day or so.

I've got a working rough write-up, now I'm just translasting and cleaning stuff up into game terms. Working up a species writeup and then adoing up the "suvival unit" as a cross between body armor and a droid. A few snags, for exampleI had to reduce the Dalek's armor from around 20 to 15 in SW, and might end up lowering it to 13 or 11. Sort of conficting goals between being bulletproof, but still vulnerable to SW blasters--CODA will be a lot easier to work this into, as was D6 SW (it differentiated between physical and energy attacks).

I do agree with you on a fundamental level about the good/evil thing, but as I have said , how any possible conflicts will entirelly depend on how such an encounter would occur. A Random meeting of the Replublic and the Federation would simply not result in conflict. A meeting between the Federation and the Empire would mean accordingly the Federation would win, because in both contexts, 'Good' would win.

The Borg meeting the empire.. difficult.. neither have a Evil Vs Evil clause :D If a lone ship wandered into the Empire - it would be destroyed by a huge fleet of vessels picking on it, before it could adapt. A lone Star Destroyer would likewise suffer a resounding defeat, and likewise the Borg, having assimilated some of the foremost technology, crew and one of the best ships in the fleet, would proceed to bo back to whence it came to get more jewels of power ;) (If it could!) Where the empire would do well would simply be raw attacking force, compared to the Federation, but part of that would depends on communication and mobilisation (much like the federation) undertstanding what they face early on would go a long way... But the Borg have a nasty habit of just turning up where you least want them and expect them! :D A Random 3km square cube shaped ship turning up on the edge of an industrialised world, such as Corruscant, might raise eyebrows, but it's not exceptionally big... and then strange aliens begin appearing like Magic on the surface, which don't die when you hit them with blasters... or lightsabers :D A Planet like that has teeming trillions, and the consequences would be scary ! :D

Yeah, it could be scary, but such a story is the sort of thing that either makes of prt of a novel (or trilogy) or is just backstory for another story where good beats evil. For example, if the Borg started to assimilate the Empire, it would problably lead to a Rebel and Imperial Forces joining sides against the greater threat--probably leading to the Imperial Forces actually seeing just what the rebels are really like.


Keep in mind, while the leaders of the Empire are evil, a large percentage of the Imperal Forces (indeed the majoirty) are people who beleive they are doing good, maintaining law and order, and protecting the citizens of the Empire from anarchy and terror.

A Federation meets the Empire encounter might not turn into a "good guy" vs. "Bad buy" fight at all. The Federation isn't going to be the agressor. The Imperials would probably be diplomatic-(in part to learn more about the UFP, but also becuase the UFP has some surface similarities). From a military standpoint it would not make much sense to attack the Federation (attacking an unknown quanity that otherwise would be firendly, won't interfer with imperial policy). The Empire unlike many of the major powers in the Trek Universe isn't expansionistic-it just want to consolidate it control over what it already has.


THe big "Star Destroyers vs. Starships" showdown is sort of unlikely.

OK say for scenario sake . . . a borg cube's transwarp system goes haywire . . . and it pops into the outerskirts of the corescant system. Of course the borg, being intellegent, would like to know its advisary first. So it takes a couple small-medium sized vessel. In doing so they assimilate the technology . . . and knowledge of the entire SW galaxy . . . since the vast majority is mapped.

They send a signal . . . which will take a VERY long time to reach the rest of the collective . . . therefore, they understand that they need to consolidate their resources . . . and move towards the outer realm . . . where their actions will go less noticed.

After a while . . . due to the massive populations . . . the borg can continue to operate outside of the republic/imperial realm . . . as long as it doesn't endanger it.

After a while, they will have a sizable enough force . . . to strike en mass. . . . and working as we have scene . . . they attempt to strike the heart first . . . and designate an ambassador of sorts . . . say a Darth? And out of no where, with the use of hyperdrive . . . they pop over Corescant . . . and begin to do their thing . . . knowing how to combat the force . . . and taking a planet of trillions.

The empire and the agents of the rebellion/new republic are taken a back. There is a new threat . . . that does not care for their ideas of good and evil . . . light and dark . . . just a locust with a maddening need to feed and grow Will the two sides decide to join forces against this new threat? Will the idea of the Death Star . . . become a godsend . . . and thought as the ultimate sterilizer against an almost unstoppable evil?

Imagine the shattered remnents of the Old Republic/Empire and members of the former rebellion actually working towards the construction of the Death Star.

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Originally Posted by Tobian

*someone misses the point* :D

There are serious technological tricks that trek has over other genres, such as transporters, but there are a number of points you are missing... 1) we have no real idea how the weapons and shield strengths compare. A 'Turbolaser' is fairly obviously not an actual 'laser', so we can't know what it's capable of, or for that matter if the Federation can beam through Wars shields, they can't beam through anybody elses in Trek ! :D

Of course if we're playing battle of the daddy pants, I'd just fire a trilithium torpedo at the local star, and warp away.. a planet is one thing, a solar system is another! :D

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Well, I was partly missing the point, but I think you also missed mine: The relative strengths of the weapons and defenses are largely irrelevant.
If I cannot be hit, and you cannot dodge my shots, then I don't need any defenses at all, and even if I am using a pea-shooter against your WWII battleship, if anyone ever wins it will be me.

If you are using STL weapons, my FTL sensors will tell me where you are shooting and my FTL drive will take me away from there. However, your STL sensors will do you no good in predicting where my FTL weapons are going.

Star Trek supposes FTL weapons, sensors, and drives. That gives its ships a significant tactical advantage over those of any setting that does not.
That doesn't make Trek "cooler", but it does make "who'd win" discussions kinda pointless. :)

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Originally Posted by spyone

Well, I was partly missing the point, but I think you also missed mine: The relative strengths of the weapons and defenses are largely irrelevant.
If I cannot be hit, and you cannot dodge my shots, then I don't need any defenses at all, and even if I am using a pea-shooter against your WWII battleship, if anyone ever wins it will be me.

If you are using STL weapons, my FTL sensors will tell me where you are shooting and my FTL drive will take me away from there. However, your STL sensors will do you no good in predicting where my FTL weapons are going.

Star Trek supposes FTL weapons, sensors, and drives. That gives its ships a significant tactical advantage over those of any setting that does not.
That doesn't make Trek "cooler", but it does make "who'd win" discussions kinda pointless. :)

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I dont think it would be quite as lopsided as you think. The ability of FTL ships vs FTL weapons proved to be one of the reasons why when running starship combat with games that use photorps as seeking weapons, thier effective ranges ened up beng about the same as phasers. Essentially if your tarrget is 4 milliom km away you target has the time to detect the weapon and go to warp.

But Star Wars does have evidence of FTL sensors and communications. The former is demostrated during hyperspace travel, and the latter is shown through the holonet (which seems to work in real time-but then so does trek's "subspace cmmunications").

A turbo laser might not only be more powerful than a standard laser, but accelerated to superlumal velocities. Who knows?

Trek has rarely, if ever, had a situation where one side could be immune to the other side's weapons via warp.

And, there is also the fact that eventually, Starfleet ships would end up in a stituation where they would be forced to keep at sublight velocities (like defending an attack against Earth) and go toe to toe with the SW ships.


My own personal slant on the relative tech of the two settings, for what it's worth (not much) is that Trek ships appear to be more powerful on a weapon for weapon, ship to ship basis, but that Star Wars ships tend to balance that out with greater numbers and more weapons per ship.

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Originally Posted by JALU3

The empire and the agents of the rebellion/new republic are taken a back. There is a new threat . . . that does not care for their ideas of good and evil . . . light and dark . . . just a locust with a maddening need to feed and grow Will the two sides decide to join forces against this new threat? Will the idea of the Death Star . . . become a godsend . . . and thought as the ultimate sterilizer against an almost unstoppable evil?

Imagine the shattered remnents of the Old Republic/Empire and members of the former rebellion actually working towards the construction of the Death Star.

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Remember the Doomsday Weapon/Planet Killer from TOS? There are some Tek novels that suggest that the weapon was built by a species for use against the Borg. Such a weapon is very similar in purpose to a Death Star (it destoys planets).

Someone who wanted to tie the two universes together could even assume that TOS's planet killer is a 3rd+ generation Death Star made by forces of Star Wars New Republic to combat the Borg manace. SW hyperspace travel is very similar to Borg transwarp travel (substitute the word subspace for hyperspace and comapre). If we go with the SW tech books that claim they use neutronium in thier hull construction, that would match up with the Planet Killer. The new shape could be explained as an attempt to eleiminate the Death Star's vulunerability (exhaust port).

Finally watched the video, kinda cute and not to biased to either side.

What I found most disturbing was that none of the Ent. personel noticed the changeling at the Helm controls: durring the fight the helm was manned by some extra, Ensign Rho, Wesley in a cadet uniform, and Wesley in a standard uniform! :p

I love a good crossover, and the Borg make good 'exportable baddies' (like Dr. Doom and The Joker; very adaptable and able to mess with anyone they meet), so the Ent. following a Borg Dodecahedron through a dimentional portal to SW might be fun. I don't think Picard would shoot first (at least not in the original version; in the re-released version he does...), but maybe he's force sensitive and knows the dark side.

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Originally Posted by spyone

Well, I was partly missing the point, but I think you also missed mine: The relative strengths of the weapons and defenses are largely irrelevant.
If I cannot be hit, and you cannot dodge my shots, then I don't need any defenses at all, and even if I am using a pea-shooter against your WWII battleship, if anyone ever wins it will be me.

If you are using STL weapons, my FTL sensors will tell me where you are shooting and my FTL drive will take me away from there. However, your STL sensors will do you no good in predicting where my FTL weapons are going.

Star Trek supposes FTL weapons, sensors, and drives. That gives its ships a significant tactical advantage over those of any setting that does not.
That doesn't make Trek "cooler", but it does make "who'd win" discussions kinda pointless. :)

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Ok so you have your brilliant plan... just a shame you will only get about 4 shots off from this miracle SHUTTLE you proposed :D

Seriously though.. FTL can only work in a limited number of scenarios.. From what we have seen, ranges on trek weapons are much huger with more accuracy, which would prove to be more of an advantage than warp flyby's - a stunt which would be mad for all but the best pilots - I for one don't want to miscalculate by a few picoseconds and ram a star destroyer at warp 3!! (albeit an effective way to destroy it, if Darwin award winner :D). Mystery shots which can't be detected aren't really relevant if your shields still stop them just the same: While really cool, a Starfleet shuttle, with it's extremely limited shots would still be just as much of a gadfly as an X Wing to the monstrous Star Destroyers!

If I were to battle them, I'd stay just on the edge of my weapons ranges and pummel them from afar :D

I tend to disregard the Neutronium 'canon' as bunk, as it's not classed as canon, and is nonsensical Neutroium is not something yo can just alloy - it is not conventional matter, let alone a metal :D The Same 'canon' which implies it, said it was lying around on some planet, just beneath the surface... so the reason why these people didn't compress instantly into an infinitelly thin splat of red good I don't know :D

I've noticed some "Borg vs. Force" comments, but what if the Borg were one of those "Force Resistant" (like the Hutts) or even "Force Blind" (like the Yuvush Vong in the expanded universe)? Their biomechanical bodies, focused hive mind and vast knowledge of the universe could give them an edge over your typical force user.....

or not.