Madness: Crazy Alternative Timelines You've Always Wanted To Try

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Originally Posted by C5

The concept of being human is now slowly disappearing. And maybe the other UFP races are also using augment technology, blending their traits together.

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The Biogaea Sphere, a thinking organ the size of a planet is the only government the Federation knows now. Biological resources, DNA as thought patterns are stored in it's vast, neural libraries (both on Earth and in the asteroid ganglion known as Memory Alpha) and psionically imprinted on the blank templates of protoplasm stored in their ships. These ships are crewed by extensions of the Biogaea's will, mindless thrall-forms birthed according to the needs of the hive mind.

"We are the Federation. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your cultural and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your biology will adapt to service us.

"Resistance... is futile."

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Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King

The RDM Klingons are not particularly different from Ford's Klingons–they're both hypocrites with fucked-up medieval justifications for what they do, they're both republics of competing aristocratic lineages, they're both economically dependant on slaves to run their empire.

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Dont swear. It makes you look like a little kid pretending to be an adult.

Please remember that this is a FAMILY freindly place, if you must curse, nothing worse than has been seen on-screen in Trek (as appropriate).

But in this case. Not appropriate, not neccesay, and certainly not welcome.

Grow up TTK.

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Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King

"We are the Federation. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your cultural and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your biology will adapt to service us.

"Resistance... is futile."

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I had something like that in mind, too. Maybe it could be a possible evolution for the Borg, too, after assimilating a species with this knowledge.

But anyway... a race who would be able to alter its member's DNA as easily as Starfleet gives phasers and tricorders to an away team could be a quite interesting protagonist. Either as a villain (able to gain any ability or race trait needed overnight) or a new possible Federation ally or member, who might suffer prejudice from the allegedly tolerant Federation ("Hey, this planet is freezing! Don't you want your away team members to have their DNA altered so they can withstand such temperatures ? Why are you looking at me like that ?").

Ok, that's not an alternate universe...

Hey, this is starting to sound a lil bit familar to me...:rolleyes:

http://forum.trek-rpg.net/showthread.php?t=14544

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Originally Posted by Tricky

Hey, this is starting to sound a lil bit familar to me...:rolleyes:

http://forum.trek-rpg.net/showthread.php?t=14544

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Well, we know it could be cool.

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Originally Posted by Tricky

Hey, this is starting to sound a lil bit familar to me...:rolleyes:

http://forum.trek-rpg.net/showthread.php?t=14544

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Actually, the idea I had then was that if a race who would not hesitate to alter it's member's DNA, but through gene resequencing, instead of a built-in mechanism. More like the Dark Angel series.

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Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King

The RDM Klingons are not particularly different from Ford's Klingons–they're both hypocrites with frakked-up medieval justifications for what they do, they're both republics of competing aristocratic lineages, they're both economically dependant on slaves to run their empire.

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I've held off on replying to this post, for a bunch of the usual reasons, including that I simply disagree about your conclusion.

That having been said, there was one thing I thought worth sharing about this: in my discussions with Mike Ford about The Final Reflection, he made it very clear to me that he had a very different view of the Klingon Empire and the Klingons as a species, from what they evolved into in ST:TNG and DS9, etc. And Reflection was Mike's attempt to explain the Klingons on their own terms. I think he succeeded quite well.

It's worth keeping in mind that Reflection was published in 1984, quite some time before much of what is considered "canon" Klingon characterization was developed, so similarities between the Klingons of Reflection, and the later view arise from those later writers making a connection (of sorts) with Mike's depiction of Klingons and not the other way around. From things Mike mentioned to me, he didn't see much of a resemblance.

As always, your mileage may vary.

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Originally Posted by badger2305

From things Mike mentioned to me, he didn't see much of a resemblance.

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Can you give me some examples?

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Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King

Can you give me some examples?

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I'll try. Keep in mind I'm remembering this from conversations late at night about a whole bunch of topics, and Trek was only one. (Mike liked having the Weather Channel on - he was asked once by a mutual friend why, and his reply was, "I like the plot" - and if not watching that, he preferred Deutsche Welle).

Generally, Mike thought that the depiction of Klingons that came later was dumb, or so it seemed to me. He'd probably have agreed with your assessment, and was irritated by it. But being the creative writer that he was, he recognized that he was playing in somebody else's sandbox, and if they wanted to muck it up....well, there was always other work to do.

Mike's view of Klingons started with the idea that there had to be some internal consistency and some idea of why they were successful. If they were dumb, they weren't the sort of enemy that had the Federation thinking twice about war. They had to be smart, and ruthless, and different. So he came up with an internal logic based on inequality (this is my gloss on what he said), and a finely honed strategic sense that basically made "diplomacy" and "politics" into forms of carefully constrained limited war (the Komerex Zha, if I recall correctly). It was important to Mike that Klingons make sense on their own terms - and if you've read any of his other stuff, you could see what he meant by that.

A couple of specific comments - Mike also said to me that he found the later portrayal of Klingons as a kind of Viking/Samurai culture to be fairly bad cardboard cutouts. Mike's Klingons would have read Clauswitz and Sun Tsu and said, "these humans actually understand how the universe works - why have they been ignored?" The personal battles for "honor" without a larger political context seemed pretty silly to him. I suspect Cmdr. Krenn would have cut through much of what passed for Klingon "leadership" in the movies and TV shows like a buzzsaw, carefully holstered his disruptor, and then would've gone on to found a new Imperial dynasty (but this is my own take on it, not Mike's).

Mike also had an objection to Okrand's language in that it had no semiotics - there wasn't any connection between words and what they symbolized (if I understood him correctly). There are a few places in The Final Reflection where he tried to provide that (pre-Okrand, remember) - the explanation for the literal meaning of "disruptor" - the "shake-it-until-it-falls-apart-tool" was definitely my favorite.

I haven't looked at in in an age, but the FASA Klingons supplement has a lot of Mike's thinking in it (though again, it was a group effort, so I'm wary of saying a lot more about that). And Eric Burns' commentary also does a decent job of explaining this stuff further.

I appreciate having the chance to write about this, but it also reminds me how much I miss Mike. (sigh)

While I do have a lot of affection for The Final Reflection, I think part of the difference comes from a television series requiring things painted in vast, broad strokes. Some things, like the inferred modernity of Klingon thought, are definitively different (RDM Klingons are explicitly a feudal culture, while Ford Klingons might have actually invented warp drive themselves). But the basic resemblance of two culture of people who see everything through the rubric of conflict and personal conquest, and justify themselves through that lens, along with the trappings of feudal nepotism, is hard to deny. The explicit philosophy is lost, but unless it's a plot point, when is it going to come up in a weekly TV series? Could TFR work as a televised bildungsroman? I don't know. ST6 shows us the closest things to Ford's Klingons–no talk of honour there, just the need to conquer or die–and even then the subtleties get lost.

And while I do like TFR a lot, something about Ford Klingons bother me. They're kind of... nihilistic. Almost Sovietically so : P RDM Klingons know how to party, and are a gut-level archetypal counterpoint to the Vulcans, as gothic romantic expressions of medieval joie de vivre. Ford Klingons vivisect people to learn their language and play miniature wargames. RDM Klingons just gesture more vigourously and sing opera while drunk.

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Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King

While I do have a lot of affection for The Final Reflection, I think part of the difference comes from a television series requiring things painted in vast, broad strokes. Some things, like the inferred modernity of Klingon thought, are definitively different (RDM Klingons are explicitly a feudal culture, while Ford Klingons might have actually invented warp drive themselves). But the basic resemblance of two culture of people who see everything through the rubric of conflict and personal conquest, and justify themselves through that lens, along with the trappings of feudal nepotism, is hard to deny. The explicit philosophy is lost, but unless it's a plot point, when is it going to come up in a weekly TV series? Could TFR work as a televised bildungsroman? I don't know. ST6 shows us the closest things to Ford's Klingons–no talk of honour there, just the need to conquer or die–and even then the subtleties get lost.

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I think you're probably right about the difference between a television and a literary protrayal. I'm not so sure about the exact similarities that you are pointing to, but I can also put that down to simple difference of perspective on what stands out as important. I know Mike thought about this topic; keep in mind that the favorite telescreen show amongst Krenn's crew was Battlecruiser Vengence.

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And while I do like TFR a lot, something about Ford Klingons bother me. They're kind of... nihilistic. Almost Sovietically so : P RDM Klingons know how to party, and are a gut-level archetypal counterpoint to the Vulcans, as gothic romantic expressions of medieval joie de vivre. Ford Klingons vivisect people to learn their language and play miniature wargames. RDM Klingons just gesture more vigourously and sing opera while drunk.

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Edit: Another point - from a stylistic perspective, the Romulans were intended to be that counterpoint to Vulcans, originally, or so it seems to me. That was reflected in looking very similar, but acting very differently. Klingons, as Gene Coon created them, seemed to be an archetypal counterpoint to humans themselves - the darker side of humanity, given existence and reason for being (again, as it seems to me). I think you've put your finger on what bothered me about both Klingons and Romulans in TNG and DS9 and the later movies - they seem to me to have been forced to switch places, metaphorically.

But by itself, I'd say you might be right about Klingons as shown in Reflection. However, if you want to see how Mike's Klingons would party, go (re)read How Much For Just The Planet?. :D

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Originally Posted by badger2305

I think you've put your finger on what bothered me about both Klingons and Romulans in TNG and DS9 and the later movies - they seem to me to have been forced to switch places, metaphorically.

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That's something I realized early on when I starte dwatching TNG. In TOS, the "honorable" species were the Romulans, while the Klingons were the savege ones that could not be trusted. In TNG, their roles reversed. But I like the TNG Klingons,although I was never exposed to Ford'skKlingons, except fo rthe FASA supplement.

Tchau!

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Originally Posted by badger2305

I know Mike thought about this topic; keep in mind that the favorite telescreen show amongst Krenn's crew was Battlecruiser Vengence.

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Which is what we were watching, essentially. These are the larger-than-life exploits of heroic crews. Trek is pulp with a conscience.

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Another point - from a stylistic perspective, the Romulans were intended to be that counterpoint to Vulcans, originally, or so it seems to me.

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Maybe. They haven't been focused on enough to really have a developed that kind of gut-level resonance like the Klingons and the Cardassians.

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I think you've put your finger on what bothered me about both Klingons and Romulans in TNG and DS9 and the later movies - they seem to me to have been forced to switch places, metaphorically.

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This is very true; the Romulans were at least slightly sympathetic and noble in TOS.

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But by itself, I'd say you might be right about Klingons as shown in Reflection. However, if you want to see how Mike's Klingons would party, go (re)read How Much For Just The Planet?. :D

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On that note, this is totally a hijack.

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Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King

Maybe. They haven't been focused on enough to really have a developed that kind of gut-level resonance like the Klingons and the Cardassians.

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They haven't been focused on enough in the series; that's why I cited Diane Duane's Rihannsu series - they certainly get enough focus there!

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On that note, this is totally a hijack.

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No, not really. What I'm talking about here are very different timelines and interpretations of two of the major antagonist races in ST. So we're still quite topical here, or so it seems to me.

It seems one of those another crazy alternative timelines has been tried now :D
Though I find funny that, while many ideas on this thread (and similar ones) were about Earth being destroyed, no one mentioned Vulcan.

Now I got 2 alternative timelines I'd like to try : the 24th century Abramsverse... and the 24th century unaltered Abramsverse: my theory being that Spock and Nero were not sent back to the Prime Universe past, but to another, slightly different universe (explaining for instance the Kelvin size and a few other discrepancies not always explainable by the arrival of Nero), I'm now trying to imagine what this universe would have evolved into :p