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True, but the technology can only get better. If Next Gen era phasers can be modified for drilling, they should be able to certainly stun a large area of ground.Quote:
Originally posted by Typhonis 1
Not since TOS have they shown the ability to stun a target from orbit
Sorry, but if phasers can hit a shuttle moving at impulse speed - tens of thousands of kilometres a second - they're not going to have any problems hitting a vehicle moving along the surface of the world.Quote:
Originally posted by Typhonis 1
Hitting a stationary target is easier than a sensor jamming ,moving target that could be shielded. Think armored and heavily armed shuttlecrft that hugs the ground. Not since TOS have they shown the ability to stun a target from orbit also transportes as easily stoped funny ores in the hills ECM shields .
An armoured or heavily armed shuttle hugging the ground would possibly be a threat to ground forces...but it is simply a sitting duck to something in orbit.
Stunning? Who's talkinga about stunning? I'm talking about vaping a battalion at a time! :D
Transporters can be stopped in numerous ways, which I pointed out in my original post. The rub is, however, that it can't be done over a large area.
Sure, you can hide out in mountains lined with kelbonite. Terrific. Let's assume I'm the Dominion, and you're the Federation defending Betazed. I've destroyed your starships in the system.
You have, say, a million ground troops.
I have, say, 10,000 Jem'Hadar. I want to capture government facilities, communications nexi, power distribution grid nexi, etc.
Now stop me.
Go ahead :) Show me a way you could prevent me taking those areas. Remember that transport inhibitors and shields are localised. You can protect small areas, maybe even up to a kilometre or so in diameter with them.
For my part, I'm going to sit in orbit and scan for signs of shield use or transporter scattering fields. When I find them, I'm going to hit them with concentrated phaser fire and photon torpedoes.
Once this is done, I'm going to pick out the key locations I need to capture and scan them at high-resolution. As soon as I detect weapon signatures, I'm going to beam the individuals up and scatter their molecules into space.
Then I'm going to beam down teams of around 100 troops to secure each location. If there is any resistance, the troops on the ground will provide local defence, while my phasers carve up any approaching forces from orbit. Any vehicles approaching the location will be vaporised.
Now...how are you going to defend? :D
you do realise that by blasting the areas you are after like that you stand a good chance of destroying what you will need in occupation ok fine first off ground batteries to defend the planet kinda hard to blast something when you are being shot at . Both phjaser and Photon torpeo the phasers can be the nice mk12 variety supplied by there own generators abnd the torp launchers can have nice big magazines ready for them .
An examplere of a ship in orbit firing and hitting a moving target i n Trek would be nice but ok the tanks and apcs are disperesed located in sensor protected alcoves near key areas this can be done in Trek
Pump out large amounts of ECM this will also work look at what it did on the founder homeworld in TDIC if you cannot use your sensors to target things you cannot hit them and spotting from the air is hard THESE days
OK your troops beam down and some of them whip out tricorders to scan the area. After using those nice active scanners some simple mortar shells land in there general area
At this point ground forces close with your own and the chance you will kill your own troops from orbit increases
Look orbital fire is nice but isnt the only way to do things Fine you phaser the enemy troops slaughtering them all and destroyuying the local infastructure in the process. How long to replace it even if you replicate it?? what about the parts that can`t be replicated????
Also arent there transport inhibitors that can be worn by troops?
Hey, Typhonis!
This is KEWL! :D We should figure out a way to actually game this out over the net!
Okay...
you do realise that by blasting the areas you are after like that you stand a good chance of destroying what you will need in occupation
Mmm...thought of this. There is certainly going to be collateral damage, but there are two points concerning it.
1) We're talking phaser fire within metres - and that was 23rd Century targetting.
2) Much of what is damaged can quickly be replaced with replicators
3) Unless the shield generators are inside the actual buildings I'm after, I can still target them separately. Massive fire onto the shields, overwhelming them and then destroying the generators.
ok fine first off ground batteries to defend the planet kinda hard to blast something when you are being shot at . Both phjaser and Photon torpeo the phasers can be the nice mk12 variety supplied by there own generators abnd the torp launchers can have nice big magazines ready for them .
Hmm...okay. I wasn't really considering them as I was talking about already having orbital superiority...but I'll take it on anyway. :)
Yep...I'm gonna take casualties. I think it's impossible to say exactly how many without actually gaming out the scenario, but I'd hazard a guess that mobile starships - many of them - have a distinct advantage over ground-based defence platforms. Going back to the WWII example, big land-based guns could do a lot of damage to fleets, but ultimately they were vulnerable to air-strikes and counter-battery fire from heavy battleships.
An examplere of a ship in orbit firing and hitting a moving target i n Trek would be nice but ok the tanks and apcs are disperesed located in sensor protected alcoves near key areas this can be done in Trek
Okay, but this goes back to the problem of hiding the troops in kelbonite-rich caves. Sure, I can't see them while they're in the alcoves, but the minute they move out to do anything I get a free shot at them. Unless you're talking about excellent stealth vehicles, which changes the whole ball-game.
Pump out large amounts of ECM this will also work look at what it did on the founder homeworld in TDIC if you cannot use your sensors to target things you cannot hit them and spotting from the air is hard THESE days
Okay...check your response below. Those ECM generators are also pumping out exactly where they are. Even if my sensors can't pinpoint it from one ship, I only need two to triangulate exactly where the ECM is coming from - and blast away...:)
OK your troops beam down and some of them whip out tricorders to scan the area. After using those nice active scanners some simple mortar shells land in there general area
Who says tricorders are active? There's plenty of on-screen evidence for tricorders being used in covert scenarios - I'm sure they have an active mode, but they most certainly have a passive mode.
Besides...I'd simply datalink the tricorders to the orbiting ships and use those scanners, then feed the data back to the tricorders. :)
At this point ground forces close with your own and the chance you will kill your own troops from orbit increases
Ah yes...I'm not saying there won't be any ground combat, remember. Just small-unit stuff. If I'm occupying a localised area, even if you throw a division at me, they can't all attack at once. There are reserves, artillery units, air units - most of the firepower of your division, in fact, which cannot close. This is what I'm going to be targeting.
Besides...this is where I just start beaming your troops into space...;)
Look orbital fire is nice but isnt the only way to do things Fine you phaser the enemy troops slaughtering them all and destroyuying the local infastructure in the process. How long to replace it even if you replicate it?? what about the parts that can`t be replicated????
Yes, this is a potential problem. But remember, we're talking about winning the ground with minimal troops. It's certainly possible I could destroy what I'm trying to capture...but my whole point with this is that because of the massive casualties you'll undoubtedly take, I don't think you'll have fielded such a huge army in the first place.
You'd take your million troops, train maybe 50,000 as ground troops - and the rest of your resources would be far better used to build and crew starships to stop me getting orbital superiority in the first place! :D
Keep it up, though...this is excellent stuff, Typhonis. And it's definitely finding its way into my campaign when we get to the Dominion War! :D
Thanks...
course that was against a strructure with Kirk giving directions
Ep number 12 Too short a season Data uses his tricorder to scan an area on a covert mission
Within minutes the team is being attcked .
Ground based defenses can be larger and nastier than ship mounted ones ,point defenses can be set up to deal with air attacks also the planet can have attack suttles of there own .
If transporter inhibitors can be worn then you cannot beam enemy troops up also you will not always be guranteed space superiority
Now I'll have to start calling it the Enbab Cod. Or should it be ENBABCDOE? Enbab C Doe? Is that someone's name? :DQuote:
Originally posted by Aldaron
:) Sorry...
Enterprise - No Bloody A, B, C Or D
:D
Don't fogget the possibilioties of the enemy fleet showing up to pulverize you as youre slowly taking your time to selectively destroy/beam enemy ground positions and troops. As while as the potential of them slipping through and occuping another 4 or 5 systems while your fleet is concentrated in one spot. Just another fleet being in the nieghborhood can sevearly alter an entire campiegn such as what happen at Gudalcannel in World War II. Or the Impact the Italian fleet had in the Med on Royal Navy operations through most of 1940-43. The US Navy got a sevear bruising off Okinawa in 1945 because it stayed around the Island and presented the Japanese with a sitting target, as also happen at Iwo Jima. In both cases this was a fleet with emense capabilities which did and could react effectively but if the Japanese had a substancial force it could have made more strategic responses to the invasions.Quote:
Originally posted by Typhonis 1
Ground based defenses can be larger and nastier than ship mounted ones ,point defenses can be set up to deal with air attacks also the planet can have attack suttles of there own .
Arrgh! :(
And thus Aldaron falls victim to that old military axiom:
"No battle plan survives contact with the enemy." :D
Thanks for this, guys - Dogsoldier and Typhonis especially. You've really given me something to chew on. I'll have to rethink my position on this...
Edited to add a question:
Are there personal transporter inhibitors? The only time I can remember anything to do with transporters were the pattern-enhancers (the trio of posts set up on the ground to help beam stuff), and the garden-lamp-post-like inhibitors they used in Insurrection.
I do give you fair warning, though: if it's in VOY, I don't consider it canon! :D :D
(Any more than millions of sentient holograms and Borg cubes that fall before Intrepid class light explorers! :D)
Thats a nasty thought a small enemy force leaves as you enter the system you start up planetary assault operations and the fleet and planetary defenses catch you in a crossfire
No, there aren't.Quote:
Originally posted by Aldaron
Are there personal transporter inhibitors? The only time I can remember anything to do with transporters were the pattern-enhancers (the trio of posts set up on the ground to help beam stuff), and the garden-lamp-post-like inhibitors they used in Insurrection.
Hi,
New to this forum but in reading your posts you all seem to have forgotten the DS9 Season 7 episode The Siege of AR-558. Whilst there are clearly engineering and command crew there were what could be considered Starfleet ground force crew.
Although that side I do get the impression (especially from this episode) that all Starfleet officers go through some form of basic ground combat training at the Acadamy. How else would Dr Bashir be able to hold his own against the Jem Hadar on AR-558 with a rifle.
But given the Borg Threat/Dominion War and the shake up of Starfleet policy it generated (development of pure warships like the Akira, Sabre, Steamrunner, Defiant and Prometheus classes) it would seem fairly cannon that Starfleet would also initiate some form of specialised infantry units if only for defence purposes.
JonA
Well in Bashir's case the explanation is in the character's make up from the start. Julian was a gung ho type of guy even though he was a Doctor he wanted to see action, thats what got him and O'Brian in some early misadventures and don't forget the basic leason he surely learned in the various holoprograms the two participated in.Quote:
Originally posted by JonA
Hi,
Although that side I do get the impression (especially from this episode) that all Starfleet officers go through some form of basic ground combat training at the Acadamy. How else would Dr Bashir be able to hold his own against the Jem Hadar on AR-558 with a rifle.
JonA
My take on the Starfleet Marines (ground forces, whatever) existence or nonexistence can be summed up with the following thought:
It really doesn't matter whether the Federation believes in having a standing ground force, as long as their potentially hostile neighbors believe in having one.
When the Klingons/Dominion/Alien-Of-The-Week shows up at your planet with his ground pounders, you'd better have some of your own to hold your facilities with.
In response to the transporter tactics ideas: A transporter is a very fickle thing to trust the lives of your people to... There are lots of canon things that can screw with Transporters.
The notion that 'Security' personnel can be used as combatants is shaky at best, as well. You wouldn't send the LAPD to storm Omaha Beach, would you? Two completely different mission parameters...
Just my two cents...
The notion that 'Security' personnel can be used as combatants is shaky at best, as well. You wouldn't send the LAPD to storm Omaha Beach, would you? Two completely different mission parameters...
Actually, this is a problem faced by a lot of modern police forces. Where does one draw the line between police force and military force? The police have SWAT, and the military has MPs, so there is crossover. Also, I remember the security professions in the player's guide. One was an investigator (read cop), while the other was a tactical officer (read soldier). The tactical officer had tactics skill, which implies general tactical ability, whether ground or space. If I wanted to create a "ground-pounder" I would use the tactical officer and increase energy weapon, tactics, and probably survival. That would focus him more on ground combat than space, which would have a high system operation. Just my opinion.