America's Loss

I understand you may disagree with our government's foreign policies. As a US citizen, I too expressed my criticisms with some of them ... including getting involved in the Middle East Peace Process. Of course, right now, I am totally behind US President Bush with regards to terrorism being an act of war against us.

All I ask that you choose your words lightly. As I have said many times before, our emotions are running high right now. Perhaps we have not gotten over the shock yet. You can choose to express any criticisms about us but do so in a diplomatic fashion, not in a tone which may be misconstrued as an attack.

I know my country isn't perfect, but to me personally it's the best country that I'm glad to be born in. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Anyhoo, just some random thoughts...

I just noticed something ... disturbing ... just bear with me for a second:

As Michael and Capt. Hunter very sensibly pointed out, American people often suffer from the resentment that has been caused by the actions of their government. Either because those people misinterpret what is being said against their government and take it for them personally, or (more often) because those expressing resentment are not clever enough to make a difference between a government and its people (for them, "the US government has made something [insert negative qualifier], therefore all US citizens are [ditto]").

Now I can't recall how often I heard, on these boards, on IRC, and so on, that people who (had the misfortune to) live in countries whose government supported terrorism only had what they deserved if the US decided to wage war on them.

Makes one think, doesn't it?

[This message has been edited by Calcoran (edited 09-14-2001).]

Let there be no mistake. The crimes of the United States of America are great and unforgiveable. Look at the record:

1. The United States of America is guilty of the greatest measure of economic freedom ever promulgated in the history of the world.

2. As a direct result of the first crime, the United States of America is guilty of the highest degree of personal prosperity over the longest period of time in the history of the world. This is a direct affront to the over-managed economies of the world who operate so inefficiently they cannot feed their populations.

3. The United States is guilty of promoting religious freedom. This crime weighs heavily on all those nations and peoples who know without question what the One True Faith for all mankind must be.

4. The United States is guilty of promoting political freedom. This is an outrage to those nations whose proper regard for law and order requires that they properly arrest, torture and execute those who question the wisdom of their governments.

5. The United States is guilty of promoting equality among all citizens. Women in the US are actually allowed to appear in public without covering themselves from head to toe as all moral societies require. This insane policy actually extends so far as to allow women to divorce their husbands in violation of the law of every True God and even to own property in their own names.

6. The United States is guilty of sending aid to any nation that needs it and will accept it from us. This undermines the stability of legitimate governments whose authority rests on the poverty and powerlessness of their citizens.

7. The United States is guilty of holding a policy of conducting public business in the open light of public scrutiny and to insist on the unnatural and immoral idea that the government is responsible to its citizens rather than the other way around, which is the obvious natural order.

It might be offered in mitigation of these grievous faults that the United States of America has often failed to one degree or another in this perfidious program of enlightening the world. But let the record show that no matter how clumsily at times, no matter how imperfectly, the government and people of the United States have steadfastly proclaimed their intention of pursuing these subversive ends without remorse or contrition.

Let the United States of America be judged before the bar of world opinion as a dangerous example of radical politics and uncontrolled idealism.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

I got this off a mailing list & thought I would share it with you. Read it for what it is worth & think about it, it could apply to any Western Nation in point of fact.

~LL

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"When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite. " - Sir Winston Churchill

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/The_13th_Fleet_Starfleet_Academy
http://www.haz-matt.com/13thfleet/

He he he ... this one was good ... if a bit sarcastic.
Actually, I guess no-one was referring to those ... but you are right, in the eyes of those rabid fanatics, good deeds can indeed be described as sins or crimes http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/frown.gif.

I apologize to all my European friends if I've taken anything that has been said personally. For me it's 2-fold: I'm upset over what happened this week and I'm a patriotic American who sometimes posts before he thinks. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif



I've always wondered, how much international press is part of the average European news broadcast? I'd assume quite alot considering the sheer number of nations on the continent. I for one cannot say that I can disagree or take issue with France, Germany, England, etc. (their people or their government) simply because they aren't in the headlines or on the news here in the States.



I can tell you that I'm proud to be an American and I'll take the good with the bad. Considering the diversity of people, culture and geography within the United States, I cannot imagine wanting to raise my children anywhere else. I'm proud that we are a young nation founded primarially by the tired, dispossed, persecuted and unwanted from around the world. (My family falls into all of the above categories when they fled Europe) I think we've done a pretty good job considering we're a bunch of cast-offs. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif



I teach my son about the culture he lives in as well as the cultures he is decended from and we're equally proud of both. (Or I should say "all" instead of "both". My son is truely a melting pot of nations)

News from the US (german view):

Quite a lot (CNN is on satellite over here in germany) and TIME is readily available even in small rural communities.

For us the US is important (Wallstreet and Whitehouse mostly) so they feature in our local newspapers. Depending on which you took from Hurray Amerika (Bild[1]) to Let's see what this means and remain a bit sceptical (SPIEGEL[2]) or It's American, we must be sceptical for no good comes from there (Berlin TAZ[3])


Side question: With all the "systems" discussion going on, what about a threat where each nation outlines it's political system (two view each minimum if possible) to minimize problems. For example a german "Liberal" is a member of the FDP, a party that caters for self-employeed engineers, small businessman, doctors etc. while a US "Liberal" is close to a communist IIRC[4]


Michael


[1] aka BLÖD (dumb), BLUT (Blood) or "Völkischer Beobachter Western Issue" (Eastern Issue was GDR's Neues Deutschland). A yellow press publication printed daily (30mil+) despite nobody reading it http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/wink.gif using big letters and short sentenced. (I also happen to find a copy in my car every morning. One day I find the guy that delivers it)

[2] SPIEGEL is a weekly magazin known for got research and background information. Closer to the social democrats (current ruling party similar to New Labor currently http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/frown.gif ) than to the CDU/CSU (Kohl) or (gasp!) the FDP (Westerwelle)

[3] Left wing publication when I last (5+ years ago) read it.

[4] At least from the looks of the US PFC I shared Guard duty with. Me (armed with Battle rifle, armored etc): "I am a liberal" He: Took three steps back, moved hand to pistol, slightly panicked look

[This message has been edited by Michael Brinkhues (edited 09-17-2001).]

And hell, if you're a Liberal over here (I mean in terms of ideology, not the Liberal Democrat political party) it generally means that you favour each person's right to live life the way they want to as long as it harms no-one else. So equal rights (including marriage) for homosexuals, recognizing that unmarried couples are not inherently a less stable environment for kids to be brought up in than married couples, etcetera. And I'm firmly a believer on those issues. I may not be homosexual myself, but then I don't smoke either, and I've never told anyone that it is wrong to smoke - it's their choice.

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"Spatial anomalies, energy beings, telepathic echoes. You know, sometimes I really miss the Dominion War. At least then all we had to worry about was where the next polaron beam was coming from...": Capt.Hunter, USS Tempest

I got sent this just a little while ago, I thought I would share.

An open letter to a terrorist:

Well, you hit the World Trade Center, but you missed America. You hit the Pentagon, but you missed America. You used helpless American bodies, to take out other American bodies, but like a poor marksman, you STILL missed America.

Why?

Because of something you guys will never understand.

America isn't about a building or two, not about financial centers, not about military centers, America isn't about a place, America isn't even about a bunch of bodies. America is about an IDEA.

An idea, that you can go someplace where you can earn as much as you can figure out how to, live for the most part, like you envisioned living, and pursue Happiness. (No
guarantees that you'll reach it, but you can sure try!)

Go ahead and whine your terrorist whine, and chant your terrorist litany:

"If you can not see my point, then feel my pain."
This concept is alien to Americans. We live in a country where we don't have to see your point. But you're free to have one. We don't have to listen to your speech. But you're free to say one. Don't know where you got the strange idea that everyone has to agree with you. We don't agree with each other in
this country, almost as a matter of pride. We're a collection of people that don't agree, called States. We united our individual states to protect ourselves from
tyranny in the world. Another idea, we made up on the spot. You CAN make it up as you go, when it's your country.

If you're free enough.

Yeah, we're fat, sloppy, easy-going goofs most of the time.

That's an unfortunate image to project to the world, but it comes of feeling free and easy about the world you live in. It's unfortunate too, because people start to forget that when you attack Americans, they tend to fight like a cornered badger. The first we knew of the War of 1812, was when
England burned Washington D.C. to the ground. Didn't turn out like England thought it was going to, and it's not going to turn out like you think, either.

Sorry, but you're not the first bully on our shores, just the most recent.

No Marquis of Queensbury rules for Americans, either. We were the FIRST and
so far, only country in the world to use nuclear weapons in anger.

Horrific idea, nowadays? News for you bucko, it was back then too, but we
used it anyway. Only had two of them in the whole world and we used them both. Grandpa Jones worked on the Manhattan Project.
Told me once, that right up until they threw the switch, the physicists were still arguing over whether the Uranium alone would fission, or whether it would start a fission chain reaction that would eat everything. But they threw the switch anyway, because we had a War to win. Does that tell you something about American Resolve?

So who just declared War on us? It would be nice to point to some real estate, like the good old days. Unfortunately, we're probably at war with random camps, in far-flung places. Who think they're safe. Just like the Barbary Pirates did, IIRC.. Better start sleeping with one eye open.

There's a spirit that tends to take over people who come to this country, looking for opportunity, looking for liberty, looking for freedom. Even if they misuse it. The Marielistas that Castro emptied out of his prisons, were overjoyed to find out how much freedom there was. First thing they did when they hit our shores, was run out and buy guns.

The ones that didn't end up dead, ended up in prisons. It was a big PITA then (especially in south Florida), but you're only the newest PITA, not the first.

You guys seem to be incapable of understanding that we don't live in America, America lives in US! American Spirit is what it's called. And killing a few thousand of us, or a few million of us, won't change it.

Most of the time, it's a pretty happy-go-lucky kind of Spirit. Until we're crossed in a cowardly manner, then it becomes an entirely different kind of Spirit.

Wait until you see what we do with that Spirit, this time.

Sleep tight, if you can. We're coming.

Charles Brennan, Author

I agree with each and point. Except of course the references to the War 1812, IIRC the War started when the US tried to invade Canada (I could be wrong, I will have to look it up.) He was right about the burning of the Whitehouse though. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/biggrin.gif Sorry guys.

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In the Praetors Name!

Well, Guys

Been whatching F-16's and F-18's flying overhead as the President was coming into NY

I cant tell you what a sight that is

These Terrorists Have awoken a Sleeping Giant

Karg

Well guys I just wanted to inform you that 75 000+ Canadians gathered on Parliament Hill in Ottawa today for our National Day of Mourning for those who were touched by that dreadful act of terrorism on Tuesday. I was unable to attend, as I had class and work today, but the University observed, as most of Canada did, 3 minutes of silence. And quite a few, including my household, were flying American Flags today. In fact it is my understanding that flag stores in the Ottawa area couldn't keep the USofA flags on the shelves. I think it is a good example of how we grieve and stand with you in these trying days.

Also, I was informed today the total Canadian dead has reached 500. This truly is an international disaster.

Long may our flags stand together.



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In the Praetors Name!

On lighter note, I found it amusing anyway. A passer-by at the American Embassy in Ottawa apparently made light of what happened in the states...He was escorted away by two police officers in cuffs for his trouble. Don't know what he said, but it must have been a whopper. What a loser. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/frown.gif

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In the Praetors Name!

I'm way behind here. I had an uncle injured at the Pentagon, and two of my girfriend's school chums worked for Morgan Stanley at the WTC and are unnaccounted for.

To the Canadians here -- I didn't know so many of your citizens were caught up in this. It's too bad non-Americans got entangled in this. Support is all the more appreciated when it comes from someone who has also been hurt.

To all other non-Americans -- we do appreciate your kindness. Thank you.

The War of 1812 -- I've often wondered what would have happened if Napolean hadn't been kicking up a ruckus at the same time...

American arrogance -- unfortunately a lot of US citizens (that I know, anyway) are appallingly uneducated/uninformed where history and current affairs are concerned. There are many reasons for this that aren't worth going into right now.

To make a return to the subject of America's current leaders. Think (or re-think) what you will of George W, but he was smart enough to ask Colin Powell to be Sec. of State. I'm personally very glad to have that man in that position -- he's all about cool heads and measured reaction. He doesn't start anything without a plan for how to finish or get out of it. This was one of his reasons for getting out of the Clinton administration -- too much fuzziness and political wavering.

Can't remember what else I was going to comment on, so I'll stop for now.

- Daniel

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-- "Hey brother! Ready for another dose of my Yankee pride?"

This message has been removed on request by the
poster

This message has been removed on request by the
poster

Quote:

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Originally posted by StyroFoam Man:
You are sick. Very sick. Nothing justifies killing on this scale.

Very very sick.

When someone plans the death of thousands, they are subhuman.

How does this happen? When the death toll reaches a certain number, does Horus come down out of the sky and pluck the soul out of the person who did it? And if they did, whould the subhuman creatures be inhuman, and therefore innocent, like, say a dog? Can you declare war on canines?


Those who carry out thier plans are too.

What, pray tell in your mind justifies this?

Please enlighten us!

I'm not going to say anything else because I don't want to get banned...

Which is what should happen to you.

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I said it might be justified. I personally don't think it could have been, but hey, I'm not omniscient.



[This message has been edited by C. Huth (edited 09-15-2001).]

I am horrified by that statement Huth, horrified and speechless. When I look at this with detatched eyes all I see are terrorists who have ended the lives of thousands of other people because (if it is tracked down to Osama Bin Laden and this is not entirely certain by this point) they don't like our government's policies. Some have suggested that the very presence of western culture is seen by these groups as a kind of disease that they are fighting against. In the cold light of day that is amazingly self-centered and this horrific act is by its very definition inhumane. Human beings commit acts of depravity unknown to other species, to ourselves and our environment, but this does not instill in me sympathy.

I have seen others skirt this sort of thing above, by stating here on a thread that deals with a massive loss of American lives that our system of government is not to their liking, but I have tried to ignore it. I have seen worse that what has been said previously, and on any other thread what was said would not be inappropriate. On one BBS-style board for the HERO system website, another foreigner implied we Americans are no better than Nazis so American-bashing is a phenomenon not limited to this discussion by any means and much more abhorent statements have been made elsewhere that were not made here. In my own opinion, other nationals like to take potshots at us Americans, and apparently this seems to be a good time to hit us in more ways than one. You however seem to be suggesting that thousands of innocent Americans deserved to die, which is the only way I can take something like implying there was a 'justification' in the terrotists for these acts. A justification is simply an excuse, and we cannot excuse this act. You will undoubtably claim that this is not the case, but when you say something is justified you are acknowledging the fruits of that act as legitimate. That is to me beyod the pale. Someone here has said that Canadians also died in large numbers, I suppose that means you feel this way about your own nationals, I find this maybe even more strange and bizzare.

This is a mind-numbing statement which I as an American citizen, as a human being living on planet Earth, cannot abide. I am trying not to make any personal comments here out of respect for the owner of the board but I think that this makes my feelings known. I will go back to trying to be silent on this thread, my own opinions are too embroiled in anger at the moment, and I think I will try to ignore this thread for a while because I am just sick and hurt and not feeling the same way about being here that I once did. Once I was proud because of the content here, now I am sick.

Remember New York.
Remember the Pentagon.
Remember the fallen and those who unselfishly tried to help them only to became victims themselves.

Furthermore as a Canadian citizen, I was appalled when a TD bank in TO had "Capitalists deserve what they get" spray painted above it. A--holes. They should be ashamed to live here whoever or whatever creed they were from. The attack on Tuesday had victims from many nations, INNOCENT Muslims included. The Toronto Sun had listed that as many as 500 Canadians could have been killed. This is truly an act of war against all peoples.
Even though we must urge restraint and protect our friendly Muslim/Islam communities
all over North America those cultures must also understand that there are extremists amongst their ranks, possible terrorists, amd their HELP is greatly needed to expose those they may know harbor such ill will toward the western world. Their extremist ways are an act of high treason and they are not welcome here.
These acts the past dark Tuesday were committed by Islam's version of "rednecks" and we must not let our own version of rednecks like the Timothy McVeigh's of our society lash out against innocent people who stand for the same ideals we all cherish and hold dear lest we become no better than the terrorists themselves.

"When you attacked the USS Malinche you proved one thing; that the Maquis have become an intolerable threat to the security of the Federation." --Cpt. Sisko ("For The Uniform")


[This message has been edited by Weyoun11 (edited 09-15-2001).]

Quote:

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Originally posted by Publius:
I am horrified by that statement Huth, horrified and speechless. When I look at this with detatched eyes all I see are terrorists who have ended the lives of thousands of other people because (if it is tracked down to Osama Bin Laden and this is not entirely certain by this point) they don't like our government's policies. Some have suggested that the very presence of western culture is seen by these groups as a kind of disease that they are fighting against. In the cold light of day that is amazingly self-centered and this horrific act is by its very definition inhumane. Human beings commit acts of depravity unknown to other species, to ourselves and our environment, but this does not instill in me sympathy.


Then what does instill in you sympathy? I have sympathy for those who did this, the same kind of sympathy for those who want to take revenge.
What appalls me is how everyone keeps referring to the terrorists as inhuman/subhuman. They are as human as you or I, and, I think, should be treated accordingly.
[/b]

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[This message has been edited by C. Huth (edited 09-15-2001).]

I would like to apologize, with deep regret, before this gets out of hand, to the people I have offended, and to those who have died that I may have dishonoured with my statement.
What I was trying to say got massively skewed when I wrote it down.
What I was trying to say is that these terrorist are people too. They have done a abominable thing. But they (the ones still alive) are still human, and...

*sigh* Sorry.

Quote:

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Originally posted by C. Huth:
I, actually, have sympathy for these terrorists. I, in fact, have some respect for these people who gave their lives trying to hurt this sleeping dragon.

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I couldn't disagree more, Huth. You won't be banned from this board for having an opinion, but do expect counter-points.

How could anyone respect an group of people that board a plane with the plan to crash it into a heavily-populated city, look into the eyes of the 2-year old child that is sitting on his mothers lap and still think these people deserve respect? What did that child do that would make you want to respect her killer? How can any mass murderer be respected? Pitied, yes. But respected? This attack was an action based on a political agenda, not on religion (save for a misguided interperation of what Islam teaches) No, these people do not deserve respect.

As for the attack not being like Pearl Harbor, lets not forget that the United States was at peace when that happened. The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki happened during a time of war and the reasons that the bombings happened are very complex and were intended, in the end, to save Allied lives when Japan refused to unconditional surrender. A great history of the decision and history can be found at http://www.doug-long.com/hiroshim.htm
As long as this terrorist attack is being likened to the actions of 60 years ago, lets not limit the history of WWII brutality to the bombings of Japan. You've got the Holocaust, the firebombing of Dresden, the rape of Nanking, the rape of Berlin, the bombing of London, the decision to protect the ENIGMA code cracking by allowing the bombing of Coventry, the bombing of Hamburg, the Japanese germ war testing program, the internment of Japanese civilians in America...the list goes on and on and on. Take your pick on which sin is the greatest. In my mind, they're all sins. Thankfully we seem to have learned from the brutality of the past. The concience of the 1st world no longer sees the killing of civialians as a military objective but rather as something to be avoided. Iraq knew this when they surrounded key installations with human shields, playing upon the humanity of the West. We abhore the loss of innocent life. Those that you respect see this as a weakness and use it in their acts of terrorism. I see it as our greatest strength.



[This message has been edited by dimeboy99 (edited 09-15-2001).]

Huth, I for one understood what it was you are tryinh to say, and I do Except youe apology.

At this moment I am reminded of a Catoon Character from WWII (I think.) his name was POGO. In one of his skits he is in a GI's uniform and he is looking out at the enemy and is qouted as saying. " We have met the Enemy and they are us."

Folks what is going to happen here in the next couple of weeks, months or Years is not a War of Good or Evil as Mr. Bush said, But a War of Ideas, that will be fought with Blood and Guts. The Individual who carried out this act and Died in those PLanes considered themselves Soldiers fighting a War against an Implacaple enemy. MOst of us have never known such a fight, now our Grandfathers Did, when they Fought against the Axis in WWII. Those individuals died doing what they thought was an Honorable act for the greater Glory of their People. Even thought most of their people right now are mourning along side us.

We must remeber this when we do go to War, that they are the enemy, they are deserving of Respect under the Geneva Convention. THey must be mad to see, that a few raving mad men have turned their heads and have filled them with this hatered and anger. Thought this types of people have Killed Civilians. We must not. I remeber the Achille Loral Hijacking, where they killed an old man ina wheel chair. These people will fall and fall hard.

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Jonathan Talbot.
Medical Officer
"First Away Team Mission... Beaming down to a Hostile Planet... Captain Kirk is leading the Away Team... I am wearing a red shirt... No Fear!!! Unknown Crew Member

[This message has been edited by Jonathan Talbot (edited 09-15-2001).]

Quote:

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Originally posted by dimeboy99:

How could anyone respect an group of people that board a plane with the plan to crash it into a heavily-populated city, look into the eyes of the 2-year old child that is sitting on his mothers lap and still think these people deserve respect?

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My choice of the word 'respect' ws probably the biggest mistake I made there. What, essentially, I was saying in that one sentance, is that the people who did this planned and executed it very well. Was it morally right? I seriously doubt it, but I, and no other human being on earth, has the capability to judge that. 'Respect' in this case, meant 'admiration for the skill involved.' And, yes, that is probably not a good thing to think.

This message has been removed on request by the
poster

Quote:

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Originally posted by C. Huth:
What appalls me is how everyone keeps referring to the terrorists as inhuman/subhuman. They are as human as you or I, and, I think, should be treated accordingly.

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I think this is a very valid point, that I would like to elaborate on:

Whoever is behind this horrible attack is still a human being.
We may call them rabid animals or worse, but we should not treat them as such. After all, how do you deal with a rabid dog? You shoot it or kill it in any other way that is convenient at the moment.
Could the same be done with those terrorists? "Yes of course" many of you will say and saying so is certainly your right, since freedom of speech is one of the cornerstones of our social systems here in the so-called "first world".

But another of those cornerstones is our law, be it in America, Canada, France or here in Germany. The laws we make are certainly not without their flaws and shortcomings, but that is the case with almost anything mankind does. Still many of us believe that our laws are good and just and while this is not always the case we are glad that our legal systems insure us of the right to a fair process and court procedures that apply to everbody the same way, regardless of their descent, wealth or education.

I for one believe that the same laws should be applied to anybody, however horrendous their crimes might have been. IMO nobody should be just shot (or "nuked") without a trial.

If you now cry out "but they killed 10.000 innocents", then my answer would be to ask you in turn where you would draw the line. How many dead does it take for us to ignore the laws we otherwise hold as fair and just in the pursuit of a criminal?
If we want to truely protect the free and democratic system we all live in such a number must never exist!
If we start to apply the principals and values our societies are based upon selectivly to some, but not to all humans, how can these values hold any real meaning?

So I say, try to apprehend those responsible for this terrible incident and put them on trial.

And if you define what happened on tuesday as an act of war, then put them before a war-crimes tribunal.
Even after WWII the Allies didn't just shoot every nazi they could find. They tried to do justice, not revenge, and Americans had an important part in those procedings.

In the end all I want to say is this:
You can't serve the principles of freedom by not applying them to everyone in equal measure.

While many of you are still angry and shocked and maybe feeling vengefull right now (and you have every right to feel that way), please try to be Doctor Bashir and not turn into Admiral Ross.

Law and justice must never be silenced!

[This message has been edited by Lancer (edited 09-15-2001).]

Quote:

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Originally posted by Jonathan Talbot:
"The Individual who carried out this act and Died in those PLanes considered themselves Soldiers fighting a War against an Implacaple enemy. MOst of us have never known such a fight, now our Grandfathers Did, when they Fought against the Axis in WWII. Those individuals died doing what they thought was an Honorable act for the greater Glory of their People.

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And please remember that these kind of people took the Geneva Convention and threw it out the window. Why should we give a rats azz for them as fellow members of the human community when they commit an act of genocide upon the whole world?
Yeah sure these wack jobbies come from a poor part of the world and went to great lengths to make it big in America to train obstensibly as upstanding US citizens as civil pilots, not realising the benefits of such an accomplishment, or respecting the people that taught 'em because their inbred hatred for the "Great Satan" was such that everyone must die including if it means killing their own. What point was made by this attack by these guys? Blowing up the whole planet is cool for all Islam so they can all go to heaven and the infidels (us) go to hell? This is insanity. Would their Islamic brethren be proud of their heroic maytrs to know some of them were at a Florida strip club and threatening to spill blood an act forbidden in their holy texts? There was absolutely nothing remarkable about these SOBs...none. They were willing pawns played by a higher diabolical mastermind(s) who placed them in the U.S. to carry out these
treacherous attacks.

"Without the white the Jem'Hadar will die."--Admiral Ross
"I won't shed any tears."--Jadzia Dax ("A TIME TO STAND")

"There are rules Garak even in war."--Obrien
"Correction. Humans make rules in war. Rules that tend to make victory a little harder in my opinion."--Garak
"This isn't a vote. And Garak's right--we're
at war. Given a choice between us or them, there is no choice."--Cpt. Sisko

"Are you really ready to give up your life just for "the order of things"?"--Sisko
"It is not my life to give up Captain. And it never was. Our death brings glory to the founders."--Remeta'Klan
"What he say?"--Obrien
"All the wrong things."--Sisko

Quote:

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Originally posted by Weyoun11:
And please remember that these kind of people took the Geneva Convention and threw it out the window. Why should we give a rats azz for them as fellow members of the human community when they commit an act of genocide upon the whole world?

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This was nowhere near an act of genocide. Nor was this an act upon the whole world.

And the reason we should give a rat's ass for them is because if we don't, we are no better than them. Revenge (a foolish goal) is not worth that price.

And who said anything about them blowing up the whole world?

This is going to unite America like noting else. Even more than Pearl Harbor.

This lady may have stumbled but she has never failed. And if the Terrorists don't believe it they can all go straight to hell.

From the sound up in Long Island out to San Francisco Bay and everything in between we call our home. And we may have done some fighting amoungst ourselves, but we all stick together, and you can take that to the bank! That's the Cowboys and the Hippies and the Rebels and the Yanks.

You just go ahead and lay your hand on a New York Giants fan and I think you'r gonna finally understand!

You never would think that it ever would happen again in america.

Charlie Daniels.

We will get revenge. 86% of america is ready to go war over this.

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Originally posted by KlingonZ:

We will get revenge. 86% of america is ready to go war over this.

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And this is what scares me. Revenge just continues the misery and suffering. Do you want this to end well, or do you want this to send Earth screaming into the Abyss? If the former, Do Not Retailiate. Talk with them. Be the better people. It will be painful, it IS painful, but for the good of the world, don't make this mistake.
But, of course, if you want the latter, go right ahead. See you in Hell.

Talking to people like this does no good. They have to be killed! And the countries that support have to be punished. Only then will it stop or at least slow way down.

What does it take for you to realize that this is a war. Do you want the same thing to happen in Toronto or London.

You can't talk to people like this. Fanatics that murder thousands of men, women and children have to be exterminated!

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Originally posted by KlingonZ:
Talking to people like this does no good. They have to be killed! And the countries that support have to be punished. Only then will it stop or at least slow way down.

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No, it will not! Didn't you hear them? If you retailiate, Jihad!

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What does it take for you to realize that this is a war.

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I know it is war, but it doesn't have to be!

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Do you want the same thing to happen in Toronto or London.

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I don't want this to happen to Kabul either.

And if it does happen to Toronto, what right do I have to take revenge?

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You can't talk to people like this. Fanatics that murder thousands of men, women and children have to be exterminated!

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REVENGE IS NOT JUSTICE! Love your enemy as your neighbour!!

That is not just an idle platitude! It is the only way to resolve this without bloodshed!

[This message has been edited by C. Huth (edited 09-15-2001).]

Isn't this were they have forced us into Huth? A threat of global annihilation? What if their plan was to hijack some Russian nuclear missile silos instead and should we just sit around until they do? You know damn well where that one could lead. Just rent the HBO special "By Dawn's Early Light" where dissident forces framed Turkey a NATO country for attacking Russia with a nuclear weapon starting WWIII. Not "nearly" an act of genocide? "Death to America" chants
sound familiar to you? They could care less if all of America blows up and now they have proven it....its genocide against not only Americans but the worlds citizenry by attacking the WORLD TRADE CENTER. Its on record for all time so even though you may disagree with me I think a number of people share that opinion. You want 'em to be spared for a Nuremburg trial...what lawyer would want to defend these guys? You? Crimes against humanity=genocide a term the US has been using a lot in the media "crimes against humanity".

I have another somewhat personal question for you. How would you feel if the CN Tower was destroyed? The Bank of Montreal building? Your house? If our PM needs to conscript
(not likely but lets say the war measures act goes into effect etc.) soldiers and you are drafted to fight over there in this "war" will you? I must inform you that there are four duties a Canadian may/are (depending on circumstance) to be expected to perform as a citizen of the country:
1) Pay taxes is mandatory
2) Jury Duty when asked
3) Conduct the census when asked
4) FIGHT FOR YOUR COUNTRY WHEN ASKED

Since my grandfather was a paratrooper in WWII in the D-Day invasion I feel a need to
answer a similar call if it comes out to serve my nation and all it represents from the forces of evil. IMHO those hijackers forfeited their "rights".

"But if we fail, then the whole world, including the United States, including all that we have known and cared for will sink into the abyss of a new Dark Age mad more sinister and more protracted perhaps by the likes of peverted science. Let us therefore
brace ourselve to our duty and so bear ourselves that if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years men shall still say," This was their finest hour." --Winston Churchill

I am really am saddened by this world. I hate the idea that the only response to this is to murder more people. I, for one, do not think that this is as morally clear as the fight against the Third Reich, but I am reminded of the failures of those who tried 'appeasment' of the Nazis, and that only served to strengthen their position.
What really, is the point? Damned if we do and damned if we don't.

I hate this. I hate it all. Maybe we should blow everything up, just so we could start again.

[This message has been edited by C. Huth (edited 09-15-2001).]

"War is hell, there is no other way to refine it." --General Sherman US Civil War

I'm sorry Huth but no one likes war or killing but remember after Pearl Harbor the US wanted to avenge the lives lost that day by attacking Tokyo. Like one of the defense secretary said this isn't a matter of "vengeance" but self-defense. We have a chance to cast a mortal blow to terrorist groups for good and you can't act like Churchill said as if you're "made out of sugar candy".

"Anger, fear, agression...the Dark Side are they." --Yoda ("The Empire Strikes Back")

Yes love thy enemy but even God says the wicked must be punished.

[This message has been edited by Weyoun11 (edited 09-15-2001).]

*****Lancer******
Whoever is behind this horrible attack is still a human being.
We may call them rabid animals or worse, but we should not treat them as such. After all, how do you deal with a rabid dog? You shoot it or kill it in any other way that is convenient at the moment.
Could the same be done with those terrorists? "Yes of course" many of you will say and saying so is certainly your right, since freedom of speech is one of the cornerstones of our social systems here in the so-called "first world".

But another of those cornerstones is our law, be it in America, Canada, France or here in Germany. The laws we make are certainly not without their flaws and shortcomings, but that is the case with almost anything mankind does. Still many of us believe that our laws are good and just and while this is not always the case we are glad that our legal systems insure us of the right to a fair process and court procedures that apply to everbody the same way, regardless of their descent, wealth or education.

I for one believe that the same laws should be applied to anybody, however horrendous their crimes might have been. IMO nobody should be just shot (or "nuked") without a trial.

If you now cry out "but they killed 10.000 innocents", then my answer would be to ask you in turn where you would draw the line. How many dead does it take for us to ignore the laws we otherwise hold as fair and just in the pursuit of a criminal?
If we want to truely protect the free and democratic system we all live in such a number must never exist!
If we start to apply the principals and values our societies are based upon selectivly to some, but not to all humans, how can these values hold any real meaning?
*****

*****C. Huth*****
And the reason we should give a rat's ass for them is because if we don't, we are no better than them. Revenge (a foolish goal) is not worth that price.
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And this is what scares me. Revenge just continues the misery and suffering. Do you want this to end well, or do you want this to send Earth screaming into the Abyss? If the former, Do Not Retailiate. Talk with them. Be the better people. It will be painful, it IS painful, but for the good of the world, don't make this mistake.
But, of course, if you want the latter, go right ahead. See you in Hell.
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I am really am saddened by this world. I hate the idea that the only response to this is to murder more people. I, for one, do not think that this is as morally clear as the fight against the Third Reich, but I am reminded of the failures of those who tried 'appeasment' of the Nazis, and that only served to strengthen their position.
What really, is the point? Damned if we do and damned if we don't.

I hate this. I hate it all. Maybe we should blow everything up, just so we could start again.
*****

Since its beginning humanity was cursed with murder, vengeance and all cruelties the human mind is capable to think of (and these are many).

I agree with both of you. I for myself have to remember myself at various occasions, that killing a man for his deeds does not undo them. There is nothing to be gained by this. I know this. But another part of my conscience cries in vain "Let them pay". And again I only see the spiral of violence turning faster and faster while it draws us all into - well, time will tell. But I do not expect anything good.

[This message has been edited by Keny Suda (edited 09-15-2001).]

If we strike they strike back, this one of the arguments against us using force. but I ask have we not been in a war with terrorist since 1972? I still remember waking up in 1983 to the site of a Marine barracks building demolished, over 300 dead marine And I might add nearly 60 Frenchmen. we have tried everythng with some succeses and some failures. We have arrested them, we have bombed the, andm we have put them on trail and found them gulty only to have them still threaten "Devine" retailation. So we hit, that means they will hit back thats war.

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Originally posted by Phantom:
I agree with each and point. Except of course the references to the War 1812, IIRC the War started when the US tried to invade Canada (I could be wrong, I will have to look it up.) He was right about the burning of the Whitehouse though. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/biggrin.gif Sorry guys.

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The reason why the United States went to war with England in 1812, was the impressment of American sailors by the English (impressment was the unlawful siezing of American citizens by the English, analogous to being drafted in your home by a foreign country).

We invaded Canada sometime in 1813 or 1814.


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"Cry havoc! And let slip the dogs of war..."
-Chang (ST VI)

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Originally posted by Publius:
I am horrified by that statement Huth, horrified and speechless. When I look at this with detatched eyes all I see are terrorists who have ended the lives of thousands of other people because (if it is tracked down to Osama Bin Laden and this is not entirely certain by this point) they don't like our government's policies. Some have suggested that the very presence of western culture is seen by these groups as a kind of disease that they are fighting against. In the cold light of day that is amazingly self-centered and this horrific act is by its very definition inhumane. Human beings commit acts of depravity unknown to other species, to ourselves and our environment, but this does not instill in me sympathy.

I have seen others skirt this sort of thing above, by stating here on a thread that deals with a massive loss of American lives that our system of government is not to their liking, but I have tried to ignore it. I have seen worse that what has been said previously, and on any other thread what was said would not be inappropriate. On one BBS-style board for the HERO system website, another foreigner implied we Americans are no better than Nazis so American-bashing is a phenomenon not limited to this discussion by any means and much more abhorent statements have been made elsewhere that were not made here. In my own opinion, other nationals like to take potshots at us Americans, and apparently this seems to be a good time to hit us in more ways than one. You however seem to be suggesting that thousands of innocent Americans deserved to die, which is the only way I can take something like implying there was a 'justification' in the terrotists for these acts. A justification is simply an excuse, and we cannot excuse this act. You will undoubtably claim that this is not the case, but when you say something is justified you are acknowledging the fruits of that act as legitimate. That is to me beyod the pale. Someone here has said that Canadians also died in large numbers, I suppose that means you feel this way about your own nationals, I find this maybe even more strange and bizzare.

This is a mind-numbing statement which I as an American citizen, as a human being living on planet Earth, cannot abide. I am trying not to make any personal comments here out of respect for the owner of the board but I think that this makes my feelings known. I will go back to trying to be silent on this thread, my own opinions are too embroiled in anger at the moment, and I think I will try to ignore this thread for a while because I am just sick and hurt and not feeling the same way about being here that I once did. Once I was proud because of the content here, now I am sick.

Remember New York.
Remember the Pentagon.
Remember the fallen and those who unselfishly tried to help them only to became victims themselves.

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You couldn't have said it better Publius.

Where do you come off of, Huth? Canadians and Brits perished in this attack, and you're saying that you respect them?
I, as an American, find what you said extremely insulting and even a little degrading that you would side with them.

The United States was viciously attacked by a small group of fanatics, most likely financed by Osama Bin Laden (although I do think that Iraq is involved somehow). We, as Americans, do have the right to vent our frustration and horror at what happened. Thankfully you are in the extreme minority.

On a side note:

Today in the St Paul Pioneer Press (Pg 14A in the Snags, successes column):

"Standing Together

Berlin - More than 200,000 people and political leaders gathered before the Brandenburg Gate on Friday in a demonstration of solidarity with Americans, remembered here fondly for rebuilding Germany after World War II and sustaining the city during the Soviet blockade.

'No one knows better than the people here in Berlin what America has done for freedom and democracy in Germany,' said German President Johannes Rau. 'Therefore we say... America does not stand alone.'

Earlier, Germans across the country joined in three minutes of silence for the U.S. victims. Hundreds stood before the U.S. embassy in Berlin, joined by workers in overlooking office buildings who stood motionless in windows."

I can't say it enough, I find it moving to hear of the support around the world, but especially here in North America and Europe.

In my humble opinion, the Congress of the United States of America, should formalize a declaration of war against all terrorists and the countries that support, harbor, or sustain them.

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"Cry havoc! And let slip the dogs of war..."
-Chang (ST VI)

[This message has been edited by Treefrog (edited 09-15-2001).]

To all those who think that striking back at "the Enemy" is wrong, I say, the only thing that happens when you "turn the other cheek" is that you get hit harder. I for one hope the Americans (and the Canadians) strike back when they find who is directly responsible and who the traitors to world peace that hid them and financed them. When they are found I hope they are shot on sight, a trial would only be a farce anyway. The traitors who hid them...(I hate to say it) bomb them back to the stone age. As one of your Senators said "they have found "our" citizens expendable.." I high light "our" because if you look at the lists of the dead it is US, the world who was stabbed in the back. Austrailians, Japanese, Koreans, British, Canadians, Americans, Germans and yes innocent members of the Arab States. This was not an attack on one country, it is a declaration of War to the World.

To those who think the Geneva Convention should protect these ANIMALS, that's right ANIMALS for that is what they are, think again...These bastards might think they are soldiers, but soldiers do not hide from their deeds...A soldier will come out and say "yes, I did that" these gutless sons of bitchs don't even have the courage to stick their heads up an admit to the atrocity they have just done. The Geneva Convention protects the treatment of Soldiers and Enemy Civilians...This trash doesn't fall into either category.

Oh, and about the War of 1812, just some friendly humour. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/biggrin.gif

9/11/01. Black Tuesday. They are not truly gone, as long as we remeber.

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In the Praetors Name!

Omnibus, if you do see this. Don't let the mis-spoken words of a few drive you away...We should stand together, even here.

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In the Praetors Name!

[This message has been edited by Phantom (edited 09-16-2001).]