Chaplains in Starfleet?

I can think of a good example.

Bajorans wear earrings (my guess is it is supposed to hold their pah, as that's where they seem to think it's stored). It's a Bajoran cultural touch, much like Worf's sash. Yet, Picard forbade Ro Laren from wearing hers, citing how it wasn't part of a Federation uniform. Neither is worf's sash, yet I remember him in the gold uniform, at tactical, with the sash displayed proudly across his chest.. and it's even more obtrusive than the earring!

Now, obviously the Federation doesn't play cultural favorites, so the obvious assumption (whether it's correct or nto is anyone's guess) is that Worf wears a political adornment, so it's okay, while Ro wore a religious adornment, so it's wrong.



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"You got your Star Trek Trek in my roleplaying game!"
"You got your roleplaying game in my Star Trek!"
LUGTrek, two great tastes that taste great together

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Originally posted by Traska:
I can think of a good example.

Bajorans wear earrings (my guess is it is supposed to hold their pah, as that's where they seem to think it's stored). It's a Bajoran cultural touch, much like Worf's sash. Yet, Picard forbade Ro Laren from wearing hers, citing how it wasn't part of a Federation uniform. Neither is worf's sash, yet I remember him in the gold uniform, at tactical, with the sash displayed proudly across his chest.. and it's even more obtrusive than the earring!

Now, obviously the Federation doesn't play cultural favorites, so the obvious assumption (whether it's correct or nto is anyone's guess) is that Worf wears a political adornment, so it's okay, while Ro wore a religious adornment, so it's wrong.

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Actually it was Riker, and it seemed more to be a senior officer putting a potential problem in its place with a steel rod...

Not the best method, but they lightened up when Ro proved herself.

Of course this does show a completely diferent level of hypocracy, but not religiously based...



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DanG.

"Hi, I'm Commander Troy McClure, you might remember me from other academy training holo-simulations as, Abandon Ship, the quickest way out, and I sense danger, 101 things you dont need a Betazoid to know..."

http://www.theventure.freeserve.co.uk

Didn't Tuvok do something similar with former Maquis Bajoran during his "academy training"?

And I have seen a similar trend downplaying religion in Trek of late, which I find sad.

Truely DS9 did it the best, showing both the good sides and the bad sides of spirituality. Even then I sa more of the bad sides shown than the good sides, at least in the early episodes. It got better later on.

However I'd rather that religion not be shown at all then played in the negative light that it often was in later Trek.

Ah, Riker, yes. My bad. Saw the episde all of once, but the scene itself stuck with me.

I still say he never would have gotten away with that, however, it was a political distinctiveness item, like the sash or Nog's headwrap. But because the earring is (I believe, anyway... someone official want to correct either way?) linked to Bajoran religion, Riker felt free to require her to ditch it.

Heck, maybe he felt that her religion was the very reason she was as rebellious as she was. Who knows?

Obviously, though, he was authorized to do this, even though other Starfleet personnel clearly wear similar items. Now, maybe it's specific to certain races (although not only Federation-member worlds, as Nog is from Ferenginnar), or maybe it's something commanding officers decide on a case by case basis (which seems to fly in the face of the level of equality the Federation seems to stand for). But I keep coming back to what the item in question represents.



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"You got your Star Trek Trek in my roleplaying game!"
"You got your roleplaying game in my Star Trek!"
LUGTrek, two great tastes that taste great together

It is interesting - in a vulgar kind of way - how many people demand freedom and tolerance but are unwilling to extend the same freedom and tolerance.

All of Star Trek: the Next Generation and Star Trek: Voyager treated religion and spirituality with a sneering contempt. Both programs treated characters who used religious to pursue spirituality with sneering concept. The only exception to this rule is Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, and even then Major Kira was the only character presented as a spiritual individual who was not also a brittle tempered lunatic. This represent a clear bias on part of the writers, producers and creators of the programs.

In the Star Trek universe, it is not appropriate to use scientific jargon or psychological discussions to dissect a person’s sexuality or condemn a persons sexuality as deviant (with the notable exceptions of rape). This would be discrimination and bigotry.

In the Star Trek universe, it is not appropriate to use scientific jargon or psychological discussions to dissect a person’s gender or condemn a persons gender as inferior. This would be discrimination and bigotry.

In the Star Trek universe, it is not appropriate who use scientific jargon or psychological discussion to dissect a person’s race/species or condemn a persons race/species. This would be discrimination and bigotry.

In the Star Trek universe, it is not appropriate who use scientific jargon or psychological discussion to dissect a person’s age or condemn a person for their age. This would be discrimination and bigotry.

In the Star Trek universe, it is not appropriate who use scientific jargon or psychological discussion to dissect a person’s appearance or condemn a person for their appearance. This would be discrimination and bigotry.

In the Star Trek universe, it is not appropriate who use scientific jargon or psychological discussion to dissect a person’s socio-political philosophy or condemn a persons socio-political philosophy (unless they are using their socio-political philosophy to justify violent action, which case it is still the action which are condemned). This would be discrimination and bigotry.

Yet if a character expresses spirituality, all the other characters expresses a kind of sneering contempt and ill-concealed hostility as though the spiritual character was farting loudly at the dinner table. They promptly swoop in with all manner of scientific jargon and/or psychological discussion to dissect a person’s person spirituality and either directly or by intimation, condemn the spirituality and the person for expressing spirituality.

Sexuality, gender, age, appearance, race/species and socio-political are all sacrosanct - with good reason. Yet religion and spirituality are all unilaterally condemned.

The hypocrisy of this boarders on the vulgar.

The litmus test - the only litmus test - would be if an individual religion or spirituality interfered with their work and duties and/or prompted them to commit crimes. If a characters religion and spirituality does not interfere with their duties and/or cause them to commit crime, there is no rational, logical or ethically/morally defensible reason to condemn them or there religion and spirituality.

Yet the majority of Star Trek fans, writers and creators - while at the same time defending liberty, tolerance, sexuality, gender, age, appearance, race/species and socio-political - spit on religion, spirituality, and those who follow either.

If Star Trek is held to the standards it ostensibly defends...

Given the purportedly large numbers of colonies in the Star Trek universe, it is highly probable that there are religious colonies.

Every single culture in human history has - at least at one time - has had religion and spirituality as a vital component of its society. Given that most alien cultures in Star Trek are inspired by (if not out right derived from) human nature and human cultures, (even excluding such established spiritual races as Vulcan, Klingons, Betazed, Ferangi and Bajorans) it is reasonably to assume most alien cultures at one time or another had religion and spirituality as a vital component of its society. In fact, it might be viewed as irrational to view all alien societies as inherently atheists.

Given the above, there are likely studies in aliens religions at institutions such as Star Fleet academy and the Vulcan Science Academy, if just as extensions of the fields of sociology and anthropology.

Yet the majority of Trekers still spit on religion, spirituality, and those who follow either.


[This message has been edited by Grumpy (edited 08-01-2001).]

I don't recall the Enterprise crew sneering at Worf concerning his religion...

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allright, as far as contempt, I didnot see it either. Particullarly in Voyager, where Chakotay's beliefs where very well expounded on. Though Janeway could be considered a scientologist and she originally had, mixed feelings about Chakotay's belief until she experienced them herself... her power animal was a lizard( I believe) much like Chakotays is a wolf.

I think Star Trek has done a good job w/ dealing w/ religion as it is a touchy subject, we grew to enjoy the Bajoran beliefs through the course of the DS9. It wasn't just dumped on us. Bab 5 did, well when they had that episode of the diffrent beliefs from around the Universe and SHeridan introduced the various religions of Earth in a simple manner, due to Earths abundance of religions.

I think with any show, it would be hard to give any religion any specific nod, unless that show was geared towards that religion. SHow's like Seventh Heaven, Touched by an Angel, Father Dowling Mysteries... are all prime examples of shows that have catered to the Catholic faith. WHile other shows like Charmed, Buffy and Angel have suported the Pagan faith.

Star Trek brings out the best in us, it makes us realize that our faiths though important to us as individuals is not important to everyone as a whole.

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Jonathan Talbot.
Medical Officer
"First Away Team Mission... Beaming down to a Hostile Planet... Captain Kirk is leading the Away Team... I am wearing a red shirt... No Fear!!! Unknown Crew Member

Originally posted by Jonathan Talbot:
"Particullarly in Voyager, where Chakotay's beliefs where very well expounded on."

After first season, Chakotay's spirital beleif were never really revisited. Janeway never went on a spiritual journey agian. In th entire run of the show only two episodes dealt with spirituality in an intresting way. The first was where Nelix died and had no afterlife and had a crisis of faith. That was dealt with well with out treating him like an ideot for having the beleifs in the first place. The other was the episode where B'Lanna died and did have an afterlife experience.

The fact that the writers did like spirituality and religous was so pronouced it hurt there stories. In the two-parter where the Dr. is kidnapped by freedomsighting hologram - it turns out their leader was a religious lunatic. Making the leader of their cause a lunatic undermined the drama of the story and umdermiend the freed-cause of the holograms. But the writers disliked religion so much that they did it anyway.

"The first was where Nelix died and had no afterlife and had a crisis of faith." as qouted by Grumpy.

Actually Chakotay's beliefs where once again brought to the forefront in that epsiode as they where in the ones w/ the aliens that could only interact through the Dreaming World. It was just brought up in different manners and areas. A spirit journey or quest is a highly symbolic-spiritual.

If Star Trek tried to expound on every religion, including the ones they make up. They would be slammed with a religious harrassement suite so fast, there head would swim.

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Jonathan Talbot.
Medical Officer
"First Away Team Mission... Beaming down to a Hostile Planet... Captain Kirk is leading the Away Team... I am wearing a red shirt... No Fear!!! Unknown Crew Member

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Originally posted by Phantom:
Grumpy,

Can you cite evidence of this "sneering contempt?" I don't remember any in the TNG, Voy or DS9.

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I remember Picard derisively saying that 'mankind had outgrown that foolishness'. I seem to remember it dealing with religion. Could be wrong, but I always got the anti-religion vibes off of TNG whenever the subject came up. the Federation is very socialist/communist in its presentation; I suppose the 'opiate of the masses' mentality goes with that. Or wait...that TV now.

Actually, I've been pumping up religious elements of my campaign. Though I am a skeptical/agnostic -- it provides an emotional pillow for a lot of people. That's not going to go away just because of holodecks & replictors.

As for Voyager, really couldn't say...I stopped watching after season one. DS9 seemed to have a bit more balanced look on the religion thing, but once again, I didn't watch it regularly.

[This message has been edited by qerlin (edited 08-02-2001).]

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Originally posted by Traska:
There are more atheists and agnostics right now (myself being an agnostic) than there were in any point in history. Just three hundred years ago, the idea that there wasn't a god (or even might not be one) was completely absurd.

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About 400 years ago, a man could be hung for saying there was no god in public. That would, I assume, cut into their numbers. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif

Add to that a well known phenomenon that people crave control of their environment to a degree approaching dementia. Basicly, people who feel like they do not have control over their environment tend to invent ways of asserting control, which are often superstitions. Baseball players tend to be superstitious, and this is in part because they, individually, have so little control over the outcome of the game.

It is proposed that the origin of religion lies in this phenomena. Basicly a man moves along this path: I wish it would rain, I wish I could make it rain, Someone must be able to make it rain, I wish I could make them make it rain for me. Having offended your god is easier to deal with, emotionally, than having absolutely no control over whether the rain that is vital to your survival will happen or not.

What I'm saying above is that, as one expands scientific knowledge, the need for religion as a crutch lessens. If you can predict whether it will rain or not, you no longer feel the need to beg your god to make it rain.

That said, I'll take the opposite tack:
If you wanted to do an experiment to determine which was better, good or evil, you would need to do quite a few things. You would need to codify what was good and waht was evil. You would need to define what "better" means in this context, like 'more likely to survive'. You would then need to create experiment subjects, who were either good or evil, and place them in competition with each other. Or perhaps you would want to make your subjects equally capable of good or evil, and able to freely decide between their possable courses of action.
Looking at it this way, you might soon realize that, were you gifted with infinite powers and resources, your experiment might look a little like our universe. Similarly, you might realize that your experimental subjects, in order to model our reality, should have the capactiy to guess your existance.
Then you find yourself asking: If I know the algorithm the computer uses to generate random numbers, and I know the random number seed, then I could compute the result of every call for a random number, and therefore predict the status at every checkpoint of my program, if I care to. Is that the same as omniscience?
And you find yourself drawn to the notion that our universe, and our lives, are indistinguishable from a detailed experiment in the nature of good and evil in an environment of subjects imbued with free will. So the only question remaining is, is someone waiting for the result? Is there, in fact, a creator who established this experiment, or is this just a random happenstance.

As a RPG book I once read said, "God created me in His image, is it any wonder I delight in the creation of worlds?"

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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.

While folks are picking on this:

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Originally posted by Cochrane:
Starfleet Chaplain Overlay
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Medical Sciences (Psychology) 1 (2)
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I'd make Psychology a subset of Social Sciences, since it really has so little in common with medicine. While some students of psychology also know a great deal about medicine, they are (by and large) possessed of an MD in addition to their Psychiatry degree.

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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.

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Originally posted by Phantom:
Science has proven many things in the Bible could have possibly happened for scientific reasons. I for one say "so what?"

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Indeed. Like the Babelfish of Hitchhiker's Guide fame, if there were a single "miracle" that absoltely defied scientific explanation, it would constitute proff of the existance of god, which it says right there in the rules we can't have.
God wrote the rules of the game and then let us see a copy. One of the rules is that we can't prove he exists. Therefore, explanation for how things He reportedly caused might have just happend randomly is not only okay, but nessicary.
Evolution? Not only possable but probable. I mean, who says God has to do things the hard way? If all of existance exists so that you have a place to be, is it nessicary that you be spontaneously created within it? Is it any less miraculous to say that God tweaked a few random events and set in motion a chain of events that, over billions of years, led inevitably to your creation?

I sure don't think so.

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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.

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Originally posted by Grumpy:
All of Star Trek: the Next Generation and Star Trek: Voyager treated religion and spirituality with a sneering contempt. Both programs treated characters who used religious to pursue spirituality with sneering concept. The only exception to this rule is Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, and even then Major Kira was the only character presented as a spiritual individual who was not also a brittle tempered lunatic. This represent a clear bias on part of the writers, producers and creators of the programs.

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Okay.
Blanket disagreement.
While all the shows could wax a little intolerant on occasion, they also all treated religion with respect on occasion. Mainly, they avoided it like the plague, as it is one issue where clear identification with a real-world source tends to alienate people.
DS9 dealt with religion more than the others. And it dealt with it even-handedly. Vedek Barial was a Good Man, drawn to the service of others, giving selflessly of himself, who even took dishonor onto himself rather than expose a good and devout woman for having made a difficult choice. (Kai Opaka had betrayed her own son to the Cardassians to spare the lives of many others.)
Vedek (later Kai) Winn, however, was self-deluded and power-hungry.
Of all the religions characters on DS9, Kira is the one I'd be most likely to call "a brittle tempered lunatic", except maybe for Worf, who was portraey IMO far more as a man with violent compulsions trying to keep them in check.

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In the Star Trek universe, it is not appropriate to use scientific jargon or psychological discussions to dissect a person’s gender or condemn a persons gender as inferior. This would be discrimination and bigotry.

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Not at all sure about this. I recall them acknowledging on several occasions that the physiological differences between the genders exist, in various species, and that htese differences often cause a prediposition toward ability for certain tasks.
[quote]
In the Star Trek universe, it is not appropriate who use scientific jargon or psychological discussion to dissect a person’s race/species or condemn a persons race/species. This would be discrimination and bigotry.[quote]
And yet, on several occasions, they said very much this kind of thing. Klingons make good fighters, due to the durability of their physical structure. Ferengi make good traders, due to the emphasis on deal-making in their culture.
Deltans make good lovers, due to physiological differences and cultural emphasis.
Vulcans, and Romulans, are strong. Cardassians can endure heat. Medusans are good at navigating, due to the way their minds work.

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In the Star Trek universe, it is not appropriate who use scientific jargon or psychological discussion to dissect a person’s age or condemn a person for their age. This would be discrimination and bigotry.

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Yet is is, again, often mentioned that advanced age limits one's physical abilities, and that the exrtemely aged require assistance for the most basic of tasks. Some people age gracefully, but Admiral Jameson so rejected the infimities of age that he took massive doses of a compound that would make him young again. Ben Tracy was so obsessed with having found a cure for aging that he egregiously violated the Prime Directive.
[quote][b]

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Yet if a character expresses spirituality, all the other characters expresses a kind of sneering contempt and ill-concealed hostility as though the spiritual character was farting loudly at the dinner table.

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I have no idea where you got that impression.
Picard did go over the line with the Edo people. Bad episode. He strayed close to the line in "Devil's Due", but there Troi questioned him about whether he had considered that the woman might be "Ardra".
Sisko was slightly condescending to members of the Bajoran faith, because he regarded them as misguided. A big piece of that, I think, was due to his unwillingly becoming a major religious figure to them. As he came to accept his role as Emissary better, he also came to respect their faith better.

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Yet the majority of Star Trek fans, writers and creators - while at the same time defending liberty, tolerance, sexuality, gender, age, appearance, race/species and socio-political - spit on religion, spirituality, and those who follow either.

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This has got to be the weirdest thing you've said. And you said it TWICE.

I suggest your perception of insult, both from the fans and the show, says a lot more about you than it says about the fans and the show. I consider myself religious, and I did not find the shows to be consistantly insulting. (though on rare occasion...)
I have never found the fans to be intolerant. In fact, they are by and large far more tolerant than I am.


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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.

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Originally posted by Traska:
Now, obviously the Federation doesn't play cultural favorites, so the obvious assumption (whether it's correct or nto is anyone's guess) is that Worf wears a political adornment, so it's okay, while Ro wore a religious adornment, so it's wrong.

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Or that Worf had gotten his CO's permission to deviate from the standard uniform, as Ro did at the end of the episode.

BTW, the pah is not in the earring. Rather, the earring is worn on one ear so the other ear is free to be grasped by someone who wants to sense your pah. And while the earring is "a symbol of their spiritual devotion"(Encyclopedia), it is a cultural symbol as well, as each one is unique and those of family members will likely be similar. The earring can be used to identify a person, and often is sent as proof of death.

Oh, and Ro wore hers on the wrong ear. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif
The new books ("Avatar") say she does it as an act of rebellion, to show her distance from the faith.

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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.

[This message has been edited by spyone (edited 08-02-2001).]