Fun with Greyscale III

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Originally Posted by Tobian

You're doing excellent work on converting over all of the designs, but to be honest, I can't see a point to most of them. How many designs do you actually NEED?!

I know many of the ships are meant to LOOK as if they are based on modules, but really, they are massive superstructures.. The ammount of R&D time, work and effort involved in designing what is effectivelly not much different than before, I can't really see that the extra effort involved could not be used to adapt existing hull frames? Hmm.

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I kinda have the same problem with the "total refit of every ship to the TNG look".

So, if I were to ever run this game again, I'd probably sling the Franz Joseph stuff for the old things, use the Nelson, Larson, Loknar etc as their Movie Era replacement vessels and kill the rest.

But, the Federation is rich and they encourage people to live their dreams. You've probably got hundreds of designers in Star Fleet, each of which have their own dream of a ship class. And they do the work to design that ship.

So, the Fed builds one or two, just in case it's something cool, and goes right back to it's Connies and Oberths and Excelsiors and Mirandas.

They can afford 1 of something as a prototype, and can build a few more if they thing the prototype is necessary.

Of cource, that means that only official star fleet prototypes get to have the NX prefix.

Alex

Hmm I guess it's arguable but all of the TNG designs are of the era rather than simply being *how can we destroy the lines of the constitution class today* .. at least each is unique (ok maybe not the Nebula :D)

Some of the designs are wholly different, but most stretch believability on the constitution spaceframe flexibility.. if you're going to mangle it THAT much why not just start from scratch.. The Oberth and the Reliant are both fairly unique.. The Reliant does borrow the saucer, and nacelles, but it at least is the one which started it all rather than just being *another one* :)

I also despise TNG kitbashes too :D

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Originally Posted by Tobian

Hmm I guess it's arguable but all of the TNG designs are of the era rather than simply being *how can we destroy the lines of the constitution class today* .. at least each is unique (ok maybe not the Nebula :D)

Some of the designs are wholly different, but most stretch believability on the constitution spaceframe flexibility.. if you're going to mangle it THAT much why not just start from scratch.. The Oberth and the Reliant are both fairly unique.. The Reliant does borrow the saucer, and nacelles, but it at least is the one which started it all rather than just being *another one* :)

I also despise TNG kitbashes too :D

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Hee.

I agree. While I can see keeping design lineages, and design ideas along the form follows function and technology way, there are some pretty fugly pieces of crap out there (see that proto-runabout a few posts up).

Neale does an amazing job making this stuff look as good as possible. But, yeah, there's a lot of redundant stuff out there.

Alex

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Originally Posted by Captain Blake

I kinda have the same problem with the "total refit of every ship to the TNG look".

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I haven't taken that approach, still sticking largely to what's been 'official' out there. But, I have to admit, I'm getting really tired of FASA, in particular, but of also the 'throw pieces all over the place and call it a new ship'. And I've only made a dent into FASA's 2nd edition stuff.. jeeze...

I'm amazed that ANY of these ships got minis made, to be honest... Ral Parth worked miracles, that they did.

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So, if I were to ever run this game again, I'd probably sling the Franz Joseph stuff for the old things, use the Nelson, Larson, Loknar etc as their Movie Era replacement vessels and kill the rest.

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I would probably pick the FJ designs, the Nelson, Larson, Loknar, and Derf, along with the Independance and Sherman as the /main/ starfleet. (There may be some variants, but nothing as radical as the new lines we're seeing all over the place.)

The 'longbow' to me is a sensible variant.. even the Decatur makes sense. Not so much the Aaken.. :)

For movie era, Miranda, Connie Refit, Larson, Loknar refits, Hermes and Saladin refits, Ptolemy refit. Belknap too, but retouched. Maybe the Chandley.. maybe. And, again, variants would come largely from minor variations in the hull style.

I may take a stab at my own Starship battle game soonish.. I'll likely keep to a smattering of ships.. I don't see why you need 50 wildly different types of frigates, anyway. :)

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Originally Posted by Tobian

Hmm I guess it's arguable but all of the TNG designs are of the era rather than simply being *how can we destroy the lines of the constitution class today* .. at least each is unique (ok maybe not the Nebula :D)

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It's a tough spot, to be sure. TNG did reuse components, but at least they were either clever about it (Nebula), or shoved the ships so far in the background that it took fifteen years to make them out properly. :)

It's a shame that budgetary requirements meant that there weren't more ships in the TNG era, other than 'alien of the week' (several of which were re-used for aliens on oposite sides of the Galaxy :D). Yes there are notably designs which are real kitbashes in BoBW - but people who sit with a video recorder on freze frame trying to capure them need to get a life :D They are just some wreks :D How do we know the Borg didn't rearange all of the pieces, for fun? :D

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Originally Posted by Tobian

It's a shame that budgetary requirements meant that there weren't more ships in the TNG era, other than 'alien of the week' (several of which were re-used for aliens on oposite sides of the Galaxy :D). Yes there are notably designs which are real kitbashes in BoBW - but people who sit with a video recorder on freze frame trying to capure them need to get a life :D They are just some wreks :D How do we know the Borg didn't rearange all of the pieces, for fun? :D

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You'll run out of smilies if you use them too fast.

The late TNG era has plenty of designs; off the top of my head you have the Galaxy, Ambassador, Nebula, Intrepid, Akira, Steamrunner, Saber, Norway, Defiant, Nova... and that's just the 'modern' ones.

The thing with the TOS era is there's simply a dearth of designs to compare things too. We have the Connie an' that's it, so weird things like the Franz Joseph designs and the later FASA ships show up. The first batch of FASA ships (Loknar, Larson, Derf, etc) were, single nacelles aside, great. But those are the odd ones out, and stuff like the Decateur and Bonaventure just goes to show the lack of direction.

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Originally Posted by C. Huth

The thing with the TOS era is there's simply a dearth of designs to compare things too. We have the Connie an' that's it, so weird things like the Franz Joseph designs and the later FASA ships show up.

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Later FASA I can agree with you, but the FJ designs as 'weird'? I can't see that. FJ went on the assumption (as told to him by Roddenberry himself) that Federation ships primarily use the same components across the board. So, assuming the Enterprise as a 'heavy cruiser', the other ships fell in line.

When we DO see other Federation designs from that era (TAS), they keep the same basic idea of main components. This mindset lasts through TWOK, honestly.

Early FASA (Loknar, Larson, Derf, Nelson) is a bit unfair to credit, though... since they TRACED the FJ designs to make their own. A point of contention to this day , I'm sure. :)

Decatur was never official, and Bonaventure was on TAS ..

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Originally Posted by TFVanguard

Later FASA I can agree with you, but the FJ designs as 'weird'? I can't see that. FJ went on the assumption (as told to him by Roddenberry himself) that Federation ships primarily use the same components across the board. So, assuming the Enterprise as a 'heavy cruiser', the other ships fell in line.

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Yeah, at the time, it may have seemed alright, but in relation to later (on-screen) ships they don't really mesh, especially the single-nacelle part (and the big ship is just... you know).

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When we DO see other Federation designs from that era (TAS), they keep the same basic idea of main components. This mindset lasts through TWOK, honestly.

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The only TAS designs i recall were the freighters, some proto-runabouts, and the Bonaventure... The freighters and the small ones were ok, but the Bonaventure is an obvious trace-job.

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Early FASA (Loknar, Larson, Derf, Nelson) is a bit unfair to credit, though... since they TRACED the FJ designs to make their own. A point of contention to this day , I'm sure. :)

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Really? The loknar, larson and derf look distinctive enough, and retain it when put next to later designs. Again, the single-nacelle thing seems weird to me, but that's one of those issues...

Returning from Holidays!

USS Northampton Class Cruiser

Another fASA design with issues. Not a terrible concept, really, but the three views, of COURSE, do not remotely match up. Hell, the top view was so badly done that it wasn't even symmetrical... oy... Anyway, this interpretation TRIES to get the three views to agree. Again, minis and 3D models of the ship (fan interpretations) were used as a more solid guideline.

http://www.pixelsagas.com/forum/file...ampton_165.gif

Oh, the Northampton is the pretty!!

USS Kiev Class Frigate

A quickie! The Kiev class frigate. I see this as cheap 'border defense', probably designed as a 'cheap' Miranda, or an intended-but-not-accepted upgrade of the Larson.

http://www.pixelsagas.com/forum/files/fed_kiev_171.gif

I never was big on the Northhampton. There are any number of Starfleet ships that put their nacelles out on long, spindly pylons, but these wings just scream "shoot my really long PTCs!" (Besides, it looks like a frog in the dorsal view.)

The Kiev, now, that seems a little more practical. A lower-cost hull, maybe, but a far more pragmatic design.

SS Liberty Frieghter

...um.. yeah. I'm redoing this ship tommorow. Again, the lines FASA gave her were just impossible (the side view cannot match up with the others, due to the 'cowling'... and this is the result of trying to make them mesh). This is one I'm going to apply some cold hard reworking to... I thought you might want to see /why/.

http://www.pixelsagas.com/forum/file...iberty_193.gif

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Originally Posted by Erik Filean

The Kiev, now, that seems a little more practical. A lower-cost hull, maybe, but a far more pragmatic design.

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I reworked the Kiev's pylons too... this time it was pretty easy just to tuck them back like that. They WERE at a sharper angle and much thinner. The modification wasn't drastic to the lines, but made a HUGE difference in how it looked.