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I was writing of the largely worthless corporate entity that men call Decipher, not any game or game engine - RPG, CCG or otherwise.Quote:
Originally posted by The Tatterdemalion King
Why not? Sure, it wasn't as popular as Magic, but it was pretty old. Most of the people over on the Decipher RPG boards probably played it...
You would register at RPGnow as rpg239@yahoo.com (or some other free mail service with a vague random name) as your name and pay by PayPal then transfer the email address (after disassociating from pay pal) with the sale of the PDF. How then can they prove that they are not the original purchaser?Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyg
Then they should sue Decipher and OneBookShelf.com, not those that purchase the PDFs as they are at fault.Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyg
Why would Viacom sue, they don't own Star Trek (perhaps the movie rights maybe), CBS Studio owns Star Trek. The MPAA and RIAA cases have gone after the clear big cases to scare off the smaller fish. They would have a nightmare senario by going after someone has legitimately purchased the PDF and has sold it to some else. They would get vary bad publicity from it. Remember how TSR got tagged as T$R for going after fan sites.Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyg
The FBI won't go after anyone under it with such vague owner ship evidence when someone has paid for the item. Said item was not stolen and the vague name is associated with the person currently possessing said file.Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyg
Easy, because when you pay for it, it comes from a bank account or credit card, and that is traceable. So the owner of the account would be the owner of the PDF. In addtion many PDFs have electronic watermarks in them that help to identify the purchaser (an a near white yellow that is hard to notice). A few games (including DecTrek) even put the purchasers ID on the bottom of each page.Quote:
Originally Posted by spshu
So any PDF purchased online has a trail and a way to prove who actually purchased it. Anyone who can't prove that they purchased it obviously have a copy.
Technically they should go after the ones responsible for disturbing the PDFs, since they are the ones breaking the law. That would proint the finger at both the site that is offfering the product (although they might be protected in Decipher hasn"t kept the loss of the lisence a secret), AND whoever is making and distrubing the copies of the purchased PDF.Quote:
Originally Posted by spshu
Since they CAN determine who bought the PDF, then that person would be the one charged with violating the DMCA for coping and distrubuting digital material.
Guess again. Take a look at how the current laws work. They will have a real name, not a vague one and an electronic money trail, that's more than enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by spshuWhy would Viacom sue, they don't own Star Trek (perhaps the movie rights maybe), CBS Studio owns Star Trek. The MPAA and RIAA cases have gone after the clear big cases to scare off the smaller fish. They would have a nightmare senario by going after someone has legitimately purchased the PDF and has sold it to some else. They would get vary bad publicity from it. Remember how TSR got tagged as T$R for going after fan sites.
Depends if if Star Is owned entired by CBS PAramount Television or Viacom/Paramount Films, or both. All the shows and films have the Paramount logo, and that why the last couple of series were on UPN.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spshu
Plus the big problem comes with copying and distribution. For example, lets say that I had purchased the DecTrek Worlds book from DriveThruRPG, becuase I have. Now, let's say that, hypotehtically speaking, I decided to copy it and make it avialable to all my fellow gamers here at Trek-RPG.
Well,my actual name (not my email address) and order number are written on each and every page of the PDF file on the bottom is easy to read writing (and that assuming they didn't hide in somewhere else in an invisible font, that I don't know about). So if copies of that PDF start showing up, any investigator would have a name and order number to help them ID the one responsible. So it wound not take them long to track down me, my bank or credit card account, my adress, paypal account, and order number form DriveThru. So, worse case sceanrio, they'd have me dead to rights by lunchtime.
Yes, but... they're completely different types of games. If your players are suddenly ditching playing RPGs for CCGs, that's another kind of problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyg
And how the hell can you expect to monetize pnp RPGs the same way you do CCGs?
No, it is they problem. The collapse of the RPG industry coicides withhe rise of CCGs becuase many RPGs did switch to playing CCGs. Money the spend of CCGs isn't going to RPGs.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King
By repacing all in one RPGs with systems that break things up into series of books. That way player are forced into buying mutiple books to get the game rules.
THen you could come up with special goodies and addons, new spells, equipment, advanced/alternate rules, or prestige classes, and only put them in certain supplments so that people will have to buy them to get the add ons. In other words, just what WotC has been doing since they came out with D&D 3.0. White Wolf isn't bad at it either. Once you break up characters into differernt clans, tribes, tradtions, whatever, it means a supplment for each group. Take a look at how many books you have to buy for Mongoose Publishing version of RuneQuest just to cover everything that was covered in RuneQuest 3 or even RuneQuest 2.
And in a little while, when D20 becomes an on-line RPG, they can probably start selling in game gold pieces and magic items to players for real money, the way "free" RPGs like AdventureQuest and DragonFable are already doing. For $30 you can buy your character a magic sword.
And yet, in your anecdote, they weren't spending money on RPGs before that.Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyg
Yeah, but why would you do that when you can pick up an old d20 book for 5 bucks and have magic swords for free? Or, hell, use that same laptop for buying pdfs of the books for 2.Quote:
And in a little while, when D20 becomes an on-line RPG, they can probably start selling in game gold pieces and magic items to players for real money, the way "free" RPGs like AdventureQuest and DragonFable are already doing. For $30 you can buy your character a magic sword.
PnP RPGs have always been a higher-involvement-investment than other games and, except for the 3rd party creations of d20, difficult to break down into smaller useful portions and monetize. If this relegates them to cottage industry status, so be it. Maybe you could pass around a hat for the GM next session.
Yes, but after CCG's, the same was true with a lot of RPGers. Most people have a certain amount of disposable income that they can use for things like RPGs. If they money is going towards something else, it isn't going towards RPGs.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King
Also, the fact that they were not spending money on RPGs, but would spend money on CCGs also means that a company could make more money by making CCGs instead of RPGs. Since CCGs are more expensive to produce than RPGs, smaller companies have to made decisions about what to produce.
Me? I probably wouldn't do that. Or would do that because I was in a location without any local RPG groups and had no choice but to play something online.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King
As long as the cottage industry sticks around. In some ways this is cyclic. Backin the early days, RPG design was a "garage" hobby. Then it turned into an industry. Then other games started biting into AD&D dominance. And lately OGL d20 has given WotC the majority of the RPG market.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King
Thankfully, we have desktop publishing, PDFs, and the internet to keep other RPGs alive. :cool:
With computer games co-opting the RPG term and growing to the point where many people thing of RPGs as computer games, I suspect the "Pen & Paper" crowd, especially the non-d20 ones (although with D&D poised to become an on-line RPG I suspect that WotC, may one day drop "pen & paper" versions), appear to be destined to fade into obsurity. :(
Wow. I come back from working on the TNG sourcebook amongst other things and this happens.
Wow.
A quick query, and a question I've been holding onto until it was confirmed that Decipher Trek was officially dead in terms of producing new product...
What would be the legalities involved in the bunch of us here smacking together a netbook version of Star Trek 2nd ed.? What with the CODA System BSR out on GOB's site and so much Trek reference on the web? I recall several posts early in the thread someone mentioning doing a homebrew Trek game (something I've toyed with myself), but also the apathy of having to learn yet another rules engine.
I ask this fully cognizant of this being deemed a bad idea, but I thought I'd ask all the same, us all being both gamers and Trek fans. :)
Yes, but you're missing the previous point. You said your players weren't spending in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyg
And also ending up crashing and burning, I expect...Quote:
Also, the fact that they were not spending money on RPGs, but would spend money on CCGs also means that a company could make more money by making CCGs instead of RPGs. Since CCGs are more expensive to produce than RPGs, smaller companies have to made decisions about what to produce.
So make a group! The hobby can't grow unless people try to get others into it.Quote:
Me? I probably wouldn't do that. Or would do that because I was in a location without any local RPG groups and had no choice but to play something online.
I suspect that the D&D player dominance has been constant, with WW sales in the 90s inflated by their writing style (and I guess content) leading to a bit of a collecting urge rather than actual constant play.Quote:
As long as the cottage industry sticks around. In some ways this is cyclic. Backin the early days, RPG design was a "garage" hobby. Then it turned into an industry. Then other games started biting into AD&D dominance. And lately OGL d20 has given WotC the majority of the RPG market.
As obscure as zines and real punk, I guess.Quote:
With computer games co-opting the RPG term and growing to the point where many people thing of RPGs as computer games, I suspect the "Pen & Paper" crowd, especially the non-d20 ones (although with D&D poised to become an on-line RPG I suspect that WotC, may one day drop "pen & paper" versions), appear to be destined to fade into obsurity. :(
[QUOTE=The Tatterdemalion King;166831]Yes, but you're missing the previous point. You said your players weren't spending in the first place.
Oh, I see you point. But, I think that if I were running an game company and was making X dollars in profit from an RPG, and then published a CCG and it made 10 times X in profit, I'd swtich.
My argument was that since the players weren't spending money in the first place, Chaosium had no incentive to continue supporting the RPG. It like when a movie gets rave reviews but no one goes to see it, and then they all wonder why there isn't a sequel.
Yup. The intial investment is so much higher, comapred to RPGs, that if the CCG flops a small company is in trouble.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King
Problem is, many players who switch over to CCGs never come back. Many just grow tired of CCGs and stop gaming altogether.
I was speaking hypothetically. If I were in a location without any local RPG groups and had no choice but to play something online. A live group is always peferable.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King
Where we are old and decrepit, I suspect that when we mention RPGs to people and how we used to play in groups around a table, people will have no idea what we are talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion KingI suspect that the D&D player dominance has been constant, with WW sales in the 90s inflated by their writing style (and I guess content) leading to a bit of a collecting urge rather than actual constant play.
[.quote]
No, it fluctuates, just that D&D's market share has always been so high that it has always been top dog. Sort of like the US Olympic Basketball team once we started letting NBA player onto the team. We KNOW thaey are going to win, we just don't know by how much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King
"How could you do that before computers?"
I'm no lawyer, but...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac417
1) Star Trek is owned by Paramount, so they probably wouldn't be happy with it, if they found out about it. Then again, they have been pretty nice to fan based Trek stuff like New Voyages.
2) Decipher still owns the RPG system. We COULD swipe most of it, provided that we omitted Trek specific terms and some game specific terminology.
But, nothing says we could do up an RPG, call it "SPACE JOURNEY" or some such, with a UNION OF STAR SYSTEMS" or what not. We could draw "inspiration" from CODA, or use something else.The new Traveler is OGL, too. so converting stats would be pretty easy, too.
But the real question might be, "Why switch?" We already got the books, and no one is going to be bothered by our using an RPG that we already own. Now that DECTrek is defunct, we can probably pick up back up copies fairly cheap on-line.
They don't own the system, just the presentation and trademark. :) It's very possible to redo a 'Coda SRD' so long as it doesn't infringe on either. Heck, at this point, it may be worth the time to SECURE the rights outright (and I may call on that).Quote:
2) Decipher still owns the RPG system. We COULD swipe most of it, provided that we omitted Trek specific terms and some game specific terminology.
Largely for bringing in other players to play too.. hard to get new guys into the fold if the material isn't available.Quote:
But the real question might be, "Why switch?" We already got the books, and no one is going to be bothered by our using an RPG that we already own. Now that DECTrek is defunct, we can probably pick up back up copies fairly cheap on-line.
Not that different from the dozens, if not hundreds, of fan conversions of other games to Trek. Or, for that matter, the Trek RPs going on all over teh intarwebz.Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyg
I'd be onboard for doing a CODA 2.0 book...
Agreed. At least if some enterprising buncha netsurfers smacked their skulls together on a new Trek game, whether a new Codafied one or a new one out of whole cloth, at least economics wouldn't get in the way of new product. Maybe the Klingon book would actually get published!! :eek: :)Quote:
Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King
I agree though that there are already three well-conceptualized Star Trek RPGs floating around the grey market, and that those who have them arguably have all they need what with what books were published and fan supplements.
Still, as TF said, playing an RPG that continually gets stillborn and goes out of print before much of it gets produced and/or released can be a hurdle for luring new players. Most of the players that I've run campaigns of something other than what they're used to playing often opt to obtain corebooks of their own.
Nice to dream. :)
I call dibs on development. Hell, I have a few thousand words of it already written.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac417