Star Trek XI discussion [Spoiler]

There are a lot of 'ifs' with a new Trek RPG. Does Paramount even want a new RPG - it might not be worth the effort for them? Also what other RPG companies would want it? I could see Margaret Weiss Productions going after it as they like Mongoose do a lot of licenses and which of them has 'prettier' books which is a factor. Actually, I could see WotC making a run a Trek RPG, I suspect they were kind of going for that when they bought LUG. Still for some reason I just don't see a new RPG happening.

My understanding is that, at this time, CBS Consumer Products has no interest in issuing a license for an Trek RPG game. The amount of work for them (in the review and approval process) is more time-consuming than other products and not profitable (enough). I don't know the details nor how much this was based on previous associations with companies like LUG and Decipher.

OK, I saw the movie tonight... I liked it, and it fit my requirements for continuity, what with time travel and old Spock and all, but the "feel" wasn't quite there. Sort of like Coke Zero. Acceptable, and I'm going to have to live with it, being a diabetic now and all..

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Originally Posted by Owen E Oulton

Sort of like Coke Zero.

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Aieeeee!

Ok, I'll ramble a final time on this thread before moving on.
But so far I couldn't quite pinpoint why I reacted so vividly toward this movie. Yeah, I found it bad, but so were a lot of episodes in any series. I didn't like Insurrection either, and I don't quite know what to think about Nemesis. But this morning I finally understood what was really bugging me.

Let's admit I'm just one of those fanboys, allergic to change of any kind, and who will complain endlessly because the pips on the Captain's uniform are not the right size. Let's admit I'm suffering the TNG effect, and that I'm wailing that Trek is dead because TNG is nowhere like TOS, which was my Trek.
There is one big difference.
A hard core TNG fan (like me, BTW) can't just ignore TOS. It's part of the continuity, it's part of the universe, and you actually need to have watched some episodes of TOS to better understand episodes from TNG. The same can be said for DS9, VOY, and even ENT (like the MU episode, for instance). The die-hardest TNG fan can't just say "Huh, who is this Kirk character anyway", so a TOS fan could still take comfort in the knowledge that his favourite characters somehow still exist in the current continuity, no matter how much he can despise it.

But now ? The Federation I knew is... gone. Picard did not happen. Sisko did not happen. Even Enterprise can be ignored. The fact also that, save for the Vulcans and Romulans, no alien seen on screen was a known species hints for me to the fact that Andorians, Tellarites, Betazoids, Trills... probably won't happen either in the new universe and that new ones will take central stage.
And it will be the only Trek around. A newly converted fan will be able to say "Who is this Picard character, anyway ?" and be right (except if he wants to understand why Spock tugs at his uniform when standing on ;)). The Trek I knew and loved has not only been superseeded (sp ?), it has been erased. It's not a bad prequel, which could be ignored, it's a full rewrite which makes everything else ignorable.

So I think this is why I reacted that harshly after seeing this movie. Without it, I could have let it pass by thinking it was another ST:V floating around. Now, and with all these good opinions, it's not an option anymore.

Anyway - time for me to move on. I accept my role as a dinosaur who will revel in things long obsolete. I'll watch the next movies probably - but like I watched the Wolverine movie last week: to enjoy two hours of FX and mindless action while munching M&M's. When I want to watch Star Trek, I'll be watching DVDs of the former 5 series.

And if I meet RPG players who want to play Star Trek because they like the new move, I'll probably spend some time explaining to them that I'll play in an alternate universe where Vulcan still exists and where there is something called the Prime Directive... ;)

I think I can make the cross between mine, the prime Star Trek, or Star Trek 1.0, and Star Trek 2.0, the alternate reality or the Abramsworse, no, I should mind my spellin g the Abrahmsverse, and stick to what I have come.

But C5 speaks out somethings that are very close to what I feel and have tried to put my fingers on.

As him I am coming from a TNG background.

I will still not be purely a Dinosaur. I probably will hope that Star Trek 2.0 will get better and more Trek-like for my feeling in the following movies. But Original Star Trek will be what remains close(r) to my heart.

And I really, really had to laugh out loud over Owen's Coke Zero comparison.

Owen, thank you, I shall use that one. You made my day :)

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Originally Posted by C5

It's not a bad prequel, which could be ignored, it's a full rewrite which makes everything else ignorable.

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Actually I think this is a benefit of the movie. The alternate reality means that "Old"-Europe, erm -Trek still exists. Do you remember the TNG-episode "Parallels", where Worf constantly jumps between parallel-universes? One of them is "ours" and one of them is the "new" one. None of them predominates or is the "true" universe, it's just one of many. This new reality is similar to the Mirror-Universe as well.

And yes, I was a TNG-Trekkie as well, although I really liked the ENT-approach either.

However concerning the plotholes, I would recommend checking out "Countdown", the comic, which tells the story of how the movie happend. There is a nice summary at memory-alpha.org. It actually settles some issues, although the science is so bad that it hurts. ;)

I finally figured out an analogy for those who disliked this movie for its lack of vision. It would be like a Star Wars reboot in which they removed the Force. I mean you have Jedi and everything else, but the Jedi get their abilities from technology and training alone and the Force has been written out of the continuity. This hypothetical reboot is funnier and more entertaining than the prequels and people absolutely love it. However, some fans are really unhappy that the Force, the one thing which made Star Wars special to them is gone. Everyone who likes the new movie is saying - well, the Force is what brought down the franchise, the Force just doesn't work for mainstream audiences, etc. They might be right, but for some fans it is a little too much. That is what the loss of an utopian promise from Star Trek means to some of us fans.

Anyway, I'm at a place of acceptance of the new Trek. At the very least we have a new sci-fi franchise for the masses, which is always a good thing. It might lead to something more substantial in the future. It's also nice to have a little break from the superhero movies during summer. Hopefully, by 2011 I'll be ready to watch the sequel as a fluffy sci-fi movie and just enjoy it for what it is.

I hated the movie. Simple as that. I tried to go in with an open outlook, but in the end I can't accpt it as star trek.

Now my wife loved it. But she didn't like TOS at all and is a NG fan.

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Originally Posted by Kirk Johnson-Weider

I can tell you some of the instances where this new Trek had clearly abandoned the utopia ideal...

...This is where the movie really failed for those of us who want a vision, a hint, of a better brighter future. In this Star Trek movie there was nothing.

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I found your comments on this subject very compelling. I translated your post into Dutch so that I could share and hopefully discuss it better with my fellow Dutch fans on our Star Trek fan-forum. I credited the quote to you, I hope you don't mind.
http://forum.federation.nl/viewtopic.php?p=43846#43846

I highly enjoyed the movie by the way, but also missed Roddenberry's utopian vision.

Sure translate and post as you desire. I assume anything posted on the Internet might end up anywhere if you're lucky.

I have found this thread very therapeutic and might try going with the wife to see this movie at the end of the month. She is also a Trek fan and hasn't wanted to see the movie. Going to see it with her might give me a different perspective on the movie. I don't know, though I might need months instead of weeks to come at this movie with a better attitude.

It's not Trek? Really? I sure as heck felt like Trek to me. As most of you probably know, I grew up with only TOS. My interest in Star Trek predated The Motion Picture, but I followed the progression of the many series through Enterprise (which I loved).

No, this new movie is not the ultra-utopian TNG; it's not supposed to be. TOS was never meant to be a TNG utopia; TOS characters had real flaws and conflicts, and technology was usually the problem, rather than the solution.

This movie shed that antiseptic veneer of the last 20 years and returned us to a time where we're not perfect, but we can overcome our imperfections to work together to achieve something great. Where a young, conflicted soul can realize he can become more than what he is and then actually do it. Where a young man split between two disparate worlds can begin to reconcile his two conflicting halves and gain wisdom.

Star Trek isn't about utopia. Star Trek is about moving past our differences to work together in a galaxy that is far from utopian.

So, for me, the movie achieved the goal of bringing back the feel of the original Star Trek. I guess you could adapt a Frank Miller quote and say that JJ gave Star Trek its b*lls back.

I have to ask how is this new Trek society any different than today's society? What has changed in 250 years? I mean we are quite a different society today that we were in 1750. So how has is the future different? I think the answer to this is why I would say that this new Trek has actually lost its b*lls. :D

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Originally Posted by Kirk Johnson-Weider

So how has is the future different?

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We don't want this thread dumped in the politics forum, do we? : P

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Originally Posted by C5

But now ? The Federation I knew is... gone. Picard did not happen. Sisko did not happen. Even Enterprise can be ignored. The fact also that, save for the Vulcans and Romulans, no alien seen on screen was a known species hints for me to the fact that Andorians, Tellarites, Betazoids, Trills... probably won't happen either in the new universe and that new ones will take central stage.

And it will be the only Trek around. A newly converted fan will be able to say "Who is this Picard character, anyway ?" and be right (except if he wants to understand why Spock tugs at his uniform when standing on ;)). The Trek I knew and loved has not only been superseeded (sp ?), it has been erased.

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I have all sympathy for you and for those who share your opinion. But I would encourage you to look at it another way. And it has nothing to do with whether or not the movie is good or bad, or whatever the writers, producers and other fans say, and I'm not going to lay out this long speech about alternate timelines and whether or not they continue.

To say that the original has been "erased" is a state of mind, not a fact. It's a choice. You don't have to make it. Consider this...

In the fictional "canon" universe, it is FAR easier to look at the new Trek and the unexplained discrepancies and decide for yourself that this is a reboot, pure and simple. One has to fill a lot of holes in the story to explain details of why the simple destruction of the Kelvin would have changed history so radically (the other starships, the purported size and design of the new Enterprise, Romulans, San Francisco vs Iowa, etc.). It can be done, but it takes work and imagination to fill those holes. But why do it?

There is only ONE thing in the new movie that would make you believe that this new Trek is inextricably tied to the original: Leonard Nimoy. What if, for instance, Spock Prime had been played by Quinto in old-age makeup? Forget the original series and its spinoffs for a moment. Treat the movie as standalone at face value. The character of Old Spock came back in time. But who is to say that this Old Spock is our Old Spock? Yes, JJ and Orci might say so, but their philosophy of "an infinite number of realities" also does not preclude it.

If that's the case, then you can determine for yourself that this new film is simply a reboot, like Galactica or Batman. Again, it's a state of mind.

Now, you might say that even if it is a reboot with no connection, that still leaves the original series and its spinoffs dead. Absolutely not! Look at the store shelves. The books continue. The toys continue. Gaming continues. There is more happening with "old" Trek right now than with "new" Trek. Further, when was the last time you saw "old" Trek so alive? With new fans coming in? With wives and friends not only liking the new, but asking to see the old?! A cable network in Canada is adding the entire classic Trek lineup to their video on demand system. And CBS and Paramount are here right now delivering the shows and films in Blu-Ray, not burying it, pretending like it never happened. Do you think these DVDs have ever sold as well as they are selling now and this year? I bet you more people are watching "The Doomsday Machine" this week than it had viewers when it originally aired. And when was the last time that there was sooo much activity on Trek forums? When was the last time this forum was so active?

Yes, that's alive in the "meta" sense (outside the Trek universe) but, again, there are still new stories based on the old Trek coming out in books and comics and fan fiction for the long foreseeable future, and nothing but the promise of a sequel for new Trek for the time being. Star Trek Lives, indeed.

The new film? Take it or leave it. It changes nothing other than the fact that this is one of the best times in maybe 15 years or more to be a Trek fan. The deaths of icons such as Kelley and Doohan, or even characters such as Kirk didn't kill off Star Trek, and this movie certainly won't either.

To paraphrase the words of another, we are now all children of two worlds, and fully capable of deciding our own destiny. The question we face is which path will we choose? :)