America's Loss

Gross. After being tied up for a week here. After watching the towers fall here in Manhattan...After checking on my civillian friends who where in the streets ranging any where from 2 Blocks to 7 blocks away as the towers feel (as the one 1 block away put it, "I could tell you the what color ties some of the peolpe who jumped out of the towers were wearing")... After having to account for my coworkers who work in the building behind One Liberty Plaza.....After not being able to accout for friends of mine who are Firemen and Police officers here a this point....After watching police cars escort a Tracker Trailer transporting bodies up MY street to bring them to a morge....After all this, I'm on standby awaiting word if the building down there are safe enough so we can going in this weekend to do a once over for my corp. SO, I decided to logon and see if what was going on the board to "escape" a bit. I return to some of the MOST FOOLISH statements I've seen in my life. To the point of vomiting. Go ahead, ban me. I'll shead a forthis, NOT!!!!!!!!!!!! While many of the statment here are encouraging. Others have been ASTRONOMICALY....unbelieveable. I'll know better than to come back to these board. Do what you want with this post.... I won't see it again.

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Originally posted by Capt.Hunter:
As for people celebrating this, I think you have to understand the level of hatred some of these populations feel towards the States.

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I'm not at my most rational, but right now I don't have much problem with attacking such people. They made it really clear whose side they are on, and we don't really want a multi-front war, so we need to cut down on our number of enemies. If that means we have to kill some of them just to take them off the table, I don't have a huge problem with that.

However, I agree with a sentiment I heard expressed on the news: the US should be looking for friends, not enemies. Instead of an attitude of "ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?!" we should be saying "Are you with us?". People who say "no", however, should realize what that means.

I'm not going to say that these people shouldn't be pissed off at us. I didn't mean to suggest that. They may have every reason to hate us.
However, the Sleeping Giant is now awake, and only a fool will get in his way. You think what happened before was bad? We are 300 million people worth of angry, and what you want most in the world is to NOT have our attention focussed on you. Tell your populace that you will address your complaints with the US to the US, but you are not willing to stand with the villians who commited this heinous act just because you hate the victims too.


Sitting over here in North America, we Americans tend to think of other people's problems as just that: other people's problems. Sometimes it impinges upon us a little, and we do something kind of half-assed about it (like Somalia and Vietnam). However, once our attention is focussed, we SOLVE our problems. (WWII, for example). This problem will take a long time to solve, but I doubt we will calm down about it for decades. The attention of one of the (of not the) largest economy, military, and most technologically advanced nations on earth is focussed, and like the Apollo program it can be amazing when that happens.

I think that the reaction to this tragedy will not be a less agressive US foreign policy, but a MORE agressive one. Whenever we'd send peace-keeping forces to places like Bosnia and Somalia, people (me included) would say, "We can't police-force the whole world." JUST WATCH US. We CAN, we just didn't really want to.
If sticking our nose in everybody's business is what it takes to keep Americans safe, I'm ok with that.

Anyone who thought we were heavy-handed before is going to be amazed at just how heavy-handed we can be, and going to long for the "good old days" before the US got involved in their problems.

I think that Britain doesn't have to worry about IRA violence any more. And the Irish Catholics need not fear violence from pro-Britain extremists. And they can thank Osama bin Laden. When I say we won't put up with this kind of stuff, I mean EVERYONE.

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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.

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Originally posted by Capt.Hunter:
"You look at US technocracy, and you see a man on the moon".

And would that really have happened if you weren't so worried about the Russians beating you to it? My point being, given sufficient incentive, any nation can be ingenious.

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Seems to me the Russians had the same incentive. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif



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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.

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Originally posted by Keny Suda:
dimeboy99


I never ment to say, that the Conservatives are racists.
It's just that I was somehow impressed by Bush's words. I didn't expect such reasonable words because of some of his former statements.

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When my brother expressed concern over Bush's possable reactions, I said, "He may be an idiot, but he isn't a fool." I then suggested that he would call Colin Powel, Dick Cheney, and even his father for advice. "Dad, I think being governor really helped prepare me for this job, and I did it well. But, .... Texas never went to WAR while I was governor. What should I do?"

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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.

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Originally posted by Capt.Hunter:
I too make a distinction between individuals and governments. Heck, my own government (whether this or the last) has made some decisions I find questionable.

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't'sokay.
Not only do I often think the "leaders of our nation" are twits, I sometimes think the same thing about yours. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif


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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.

Incensed as I am, I still have the love of the English language my parents gave me, and I think we all need to watch our rhetoric.
We should stop calling these "cowardly acts". While they might be cowardly (although I think it probably takes some balls to fly into a building), we are not angry about how cowardly it was. Lots of people are cowardly every day and it doesn't pis us off.
People who make threats like "sleep well in your beds if you can, terrorists" are expressing a sentiment VERY like that of the attackers.
Other points:

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Originally posted by StyroFoam Man:
Nothing justifies killing on this scale.(snip)
When someone plans the death of thousands, they are subhuman.

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We've done it. We intentionally firebombed Tokyo. We dropped atomic bombs twice. On mostly civilian targets. With the intention of terrifying the populace.

The circumstance were different.
Therefore, it is mainly the circumstances we condemn, not the acts themselves, I guess. But if plotting the death of thousands makes one subhuman, we got a lot of Army Generals and a few ex-presidents who are sub-human.


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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.

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Originally posted by Publius:

Remember New York.
Remember the Pentagon.
Remember the fallen and those who unselfishly tried to help them only to became victims themselves.

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You know, I considerably less pissed about the Pentagon.
Still pissed, mind you, but less so. The people there were part of the military, it was a military target, and even with a cushy office job you should recognize the risk when you take the job. It is always sad when an attacker kills such people, but... it IS part of the job.

I'm pissed about it, but no moreso than if those people had been on a warship.

It's the Civilian targets and the use of hijacked passenger planes that pisses me off most.

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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.

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Originally posted by Jonathan Talbot:
At this moment I am reminded of a Catoon Character from WWII (I think.) his name was POGO. In one of his skits he is in a GI's uniform and he is looking out at the enemy and is qouted as saying. " We have met the Enemy and they are us."

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He was out partolling near his home, looking for "Enemy Activity". (He lived in the Okeefenokee.) He found tracks. he followed them, certain that he was tracking "the Enemy". He found that the tracks circled back and joined up, which he took as a large group forming up.
Until he realized that he was walking in circles. He has been narrating, in journal form. He makes an entry, "We have met the Enemy, and he is us."

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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.

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Originally posted by Weyoun11:

"Without the white the Jem'Hadar will die."--Admiral Ross
"I won't shed any tears."--Jadzia Dax ("A TIME TO STAND")

"There are rules Garak even in war."--Obrien
"Correction. Humans make rules in war. Rules that tend to make victory a little harder in my opinion."--Garak
"This isn't a vote. And Garak's right--we're
at war. Given a choice between us or them, there is no choice."--Cpt. Sisko

"Are you really ready to give up your life just for "the order of things"?"--Sisko
"It is not my life to give up Captain. And it never was. Our death brings glory to the founders."--Remeta'Klan
"What he say?"--Obrien
"All the wrong things."--Sisko

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"How many, Admiral? How many before it's wrong?" - Picard.


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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.

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Originally posted by C. Huth:
And this is what scares me. Revenge just continues the misery and suffering. Do you want this to end well, or do you want this to send Earth screaming into the Abyss? If the former, Do Not Retailiate. Talk with them. Be the better people. It will be painful, it IS painful, but for the good of the world, don't make this mistake.

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originally posted by SpyOne:
Whoever did this must be convinced that this was NOT a GOOD plan. They must be made to never want to do anything remotely like this again. And they must be made an example to deter others who might do something like this in the future.

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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.

As Stated Before and will be stated again, the Terrorist that did, this the group that is left alive, must and should be brought to trail. Any NAtion that has supported and hide this group must have Leaders who allowed for this group to come in must be punished also.

However, when we go to War and rest assure we are going to War, we must not lose our heads about this or else a real World War this will be, not a limited Military response.

Now til recently, we have been taking a relaxed view about Terrorism here in the States, because it could never happen to us... ( Well that attitude is gone, from the originall WTC building, the the Oklahoma CIty Bombing, to this Tuesday's Attack. Hey Terrorist Three Strikes.... You are OUT!!!)

You have not woken a Sleeping giant you have enraged a gentle giant a giant who knows it's strength and has been cautious in using it, because we might crush the flower we held, or the Bee that was on that flower, because we enjoy it's look and it's peacefulness. We will now spend every waking moment hunting these groups down, and what will suprise the Islamic Fundamentalist the most is when they see there own country men hunting them down. WHen there is more then a Christian Nation coming at them. WHen more then One Religion comes at them all wrapped up in 300 million people.

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Jonathan Talbot.
Medical Officer
"First Away Team Mission... Beaming down to a Hostile Planet... Captain Kirk is leading the Away Team... I am wearing a red shirt... No Fear!!! Unknown Crew Member

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Originally posted by spyone:

"How many, Admiral? How many before it's wrong?" - Picard.

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"This is not about revenge. This is about saving the future of humanity!
We've made too many compromises, too many retreats already. They invade our space and we fall back, they assimilate entire worlds and we fall back. Well not again! The line must be drawn here this far and no farther! And I will make them pay for what they've done!" --Captain Jean-Luc Picard

"We tried it once your way Khan. Are you game for a rematch? Khan. I'm laughing at the superior intellect."--Admiral James T. Kirk

"It is you who have underestimated us your majesty."--Admiral Kathryn Janeway

"It may be that we shall by a process of sublime irony have reached a
stage in this story where safety will be the sturdy child of terror, and
survival the twin brother of annihilation."

Winston Churchill

This is an open letter that has been floating around for a few days (author unknown). I found it on another site and am reposting it here:

[BOLD]An open letter to a terrorist:

Well, you hit the World Trade Center, but you missed America. You hit the Pentagon, but you missed America. You used helpless American bodies, to take out other American bodies, but like a poor marksman, you STILL missed America.

Why? Because of something you guys will never understand.

America isn't about a building or two, not about financial centers, not about military centers. America isn't about a place, America isn't even about a bunch of bodies. America is about an IDEA. An idea that you can go someplace where you can earn as much as you can figure out how to, live for the most part, like you envisioned living, and pursue happiness. (No guarantees that you'll reach it, but you can sure try!)

Go ahead and whine your terrorist whine, and chant your terrorist litany: "If you cannot see my point, then feel my pain."


This concept is alien to Americans. We live in a country where we don't have to see your point. But you're free to have one. We don't have to listen to your speech. But you're free to say one. Don't know where you got the strange idea that everyone has to agree with you. We don't agree with each other in this country, almost as a matter of pride. We're a collection of guys that don't agree, called States. We united our individual states to protect ourselves from tyranny in the world. Another idea, we made up on the spot. You CAN make it up as you go, when it's your country.

If you're free enough.

Yeah, we're fat, sloppy, easy-going goofs most of the time. That's an unfortunate image to project to the world, but it comes of feeling free and easy about the world you live in. It's unfortunate too, because people start to forget that when you attack Americans, they tend to fight like a cornered badger. The first we knew of the War of 1812, was when England burned Washington D.C. to the ground. Didn't turn out like England thought it was going to, and it's not going to turn out like you think, either. Sorry, but you're not the first bully on our shores, just the most recent.

No Marquis of Queensbury rules for Americans, either. We were the FIRST and so far, only country in the world to use nuclear weapons in anger.

Horrific idea, nowadays? News for you bucko, it was back then too, but we used it anyway. Only had two of them in the whole world and we used 'em both. Grandpa Jones worked on the Manhattan Project. Told me once, that right up until they threw the switch, the physicists were still arguing over whether the Uranium alone would fission, or whether it would start a fissioning chain reaction that would eat everything. But they threw the switch anyway, because we had a War to win. Does that tell you something about American Resolve?

So who just declared War on us? It would be nice to point to some real estate, like the good old days. Unfortunately, we're probably at war with random camps, in far-flung places. Who think they're safe. Just like the Barbary Pirates did, IIRC. Better start sleeping with one eye open.

There's a spirit that tends to take over people who come to this country, looking for opportunity, looking for liberty, looking for freedom. Even if they misuse it. The Marielistas that Castro emptied out of his prisons, were overjoyed to find out how much freedom there was. First thing they did when they hit our shores, was run out and buy guns. The ones that didn't end up dead, ended up in prisons. It was a big pain in the ass then (especially in south Florida), but you're only the newest pain in the ass, not the first.

You guys seem to be incapable of understanding that we don't live in America, America lives in US! American Spirit is what it's called. And killing a few thousand of us, or a few million of us, won't change it. Most of the time, it's a pretty happy-go-lucky kind of Spirit. Until we're crossed in a cowardly manner, then it becomes an entirely different kind of Spirit.

Wait until you see what we do with that Spirit, this time.

Sleep tight, if you can. We're coming. [/BOLD]



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Deo Vindice!

This message has been removed on request by the
poster

You know, there's a special forum over at the 3dg site for this topic, and there are several Canadians on there too that are lecturing at us Americans with that "now, now, be civilized" tone.

What is it with you guys, anyways? Your country hasn't been attacked; ours has! The symbols of your nation didn't get kamikazed; ours did!

If you don't want to support us as we set out to slaughter every last terrorist we can get our hands on, then FINE! But don't you DARE lecture to us about "staying civilized"!

You don't have that right!

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Deo Vindice!