That dreaded Prototype trait...

Just wondered if someone could give me a definitive answer on this one - it came up a couple of times, in the errata/discussion thread on Starships, but was never actually answered (presumably because of the flood of the replies to all the other questions!). Posting it again here, might provoke an answer :)

It's kind of important to my StarshipWright program...

How exactly does the row shift limit/bonus/penalty thing work? (I'm clear on the costing!)

As an example, I have a ship with an CIDSS-4 deflector shield:
Protection Rating: 16; Threshold 1/3; Reliability: BB.

Protection Rating can be shifted +1/-4.

Is this number of actual rows up or down? This would give allowed shifts of:
+1 to FSQ: 17 (cost 2*1 row = 2)
-1 to CIDSS-3: 15 (cost -0.5*1 rows = -1 (rounded))
-2 to CIDSS-2: 14 (cost -0.5*2 rows = -1)
-3 to CIDSS-1: 13 (cost -0.5*3 rows = -1 (rounded))
-4 to PFF 3: 14 (cost -0.5*4 rows = -2)

Or is it more complicated (as implied in one posting), with the limits of the shift affected by whether it's a benefit or flaw - not the table direction? In this case, the allowed values would be:
-3 to FSQ-2: 14 (cost -0.5*3 rows = -1 (rounded))
-2 to FSQ-1A: 12 (cost -0.5*2 rows = -1)
+1 to FSQ: 17 (cost 2*1 row = 2)
-1 to CIDSS-3: 15 (cost -0.5*1 rows = -1 (rounded))
-2 to CIDSS-2: 14 (cost -0.5*2 rows = -1)
-3 to CIDSS-1: 13 (cost -0.5*3 rows = -1 (rounded))
-4 to PFF 3: 14 (cost -0.5*4 rows = -2)

(Hopefully the distinction is clear - in the second version you get up to four row shifts, providing the resulting value shift is negative, but only one [row] shift if the value shift is positive. In the second case, the shift to FSQ-7 is not allowed as it would be positive and four rows.)

Which should I be using?

How are people handling the various table breaks and splits?

Are row shifts allowed between the Hull Plating, Hull Polarization and Deflector Shield categories of table 1.19 for example? Crossing between Cardassian and Dominion sections on 1.21 would also be significant.

If I'm working with beam weapons (table 1.16) can I cross on to the Alien table (1.21)? If I do, am I restricted by nationality, or not at all? And would you add the new table at the bottom of the original, or try to slot it into the original by date or some other factor?

All of this is highly relevant when you're trying to code it as a program you know! ;)

I'll do this one first since it doesn't require me to reference any books.

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Originally posted by Imagus
Are row shifts allowed between the Hull Plating, Hull Polarization and Deflector Shield categories of table 1.19 for example?

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Absolutely not.

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If I'm working with beam weapons (table 1.16) can I cross on to the Alien table (1.21)? If I do, am I restricted by nationality, or not at all? And would you add the new table at the bottom of the original, or try to slot it into the original by date or some other factor?

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As above, you can't cross into other nationalities or types. Rules already exist for taking on alien equipment or modifying availability dates.

Prototype exists to add a small wrinkle or distinction to a component, not dramatically alter the nature of said component. It's to illustrate an CIDSS grid that isn't quite up to snuff for some reason or a warp drive that's faster-than-normal on a particular ship.

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Originally posted by Imagus
Or is it more complicated (as implied in one posting), with the limits of the shift affected by whether it's a benefit or flaw - not the table direction?

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Hi Jon. The shifts are, as you indicated, based on whether the affect--not the direction--yields a benefit or flaw. The positive and negative numbers reflect the number of shifts, in any direction, that grant a benefit before you must stop. This only really comes up when discussing engines or defensive systems; everything else is pretty much as you'd expect.

Example: Lets say you have an FSQ shield grid and you want to use the Prototype trait to upgrade the grid's Maximum Threshold (+1/-0). The next highest (5) is the FSR-2, five row shifts away. However, the intervening rows are essentially "skipped," as they provide no bonus. So, your FSQ would have a starting Threshold of 2/5 at a cost of 2 space.

Someone might be wondering why bother with the trait at all? After all, in my example the FSQ + prototype has the same cost and overall stats as the FSR-2. So what's the point?

The point is that there is a 20 year availability difference in the systems. By using the prototype trait you've saved 2 space points (2 space per decade, 20 years = 4 space), but only for that one vessel. If you want to build a whole line of ships using the FSR-2 before 2370 then you have to pay the availability cost (NG pg 137).

Prototype lets you do it cheaper for one vessel only. Again, the intention is to add character or a wrinkle to a ship.

Hope that helps.

Thanks for the clarifications Don, it's all helping...

So what we have so far is no shifting across different classes of a system (phasers, phase cannon, plasma, laser for example); and no shifting into other species' technology.

Plus an even more complicated understanding of row shifts than I'd picked up from the book (see below).

What I still need concerns the table/races thing.

As an example, I have a Cardassian vessel. I can use warp systems from both Table 1.11 and the Cardassian section of Table 1.14.

Can the prototype trait shift across these two lists as if they were one table? (Remembering that the idea is that the Cardassians are using equivalents to the Federation systems in 1.11.)

If I do do this, should I try to merge the tables (by date for example) or just tack 1.14 on to the end of 1.11?

Thanks again!

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Originally posted by Don Mappin
The positive and negative numbers reflect the number of shifts, in any direction, that grant a benefit before you must stop.

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Originally posted by Don Mappin
However, the intervening rows are essentially "skipped," as they provide no bonus. So, your FSQ would have a starting Threshold of 2/5 at a cost of 2 space.

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Aaargh! That's the one option I hadn't even considered... I was working on the basis that the limit was the absolute number of shifts in which a benefit or flaw must be found. In your example, using my interpretation, the upgraded threshold would not be allowed as it's not within one row.

This is going to be a b*gger to code in SQL - and there was me thinking I nearly had it! :(

Hey-ho, back to the drawing board... :cool:

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Originally posted by Imagus
Aaargh! That's the one option I hadn't even considered... I was working on the basis that the limit was the absolute number of shifts in which a benefit or flaw must be found. In your example, using my interpretation, the upgraded threshold would not be allowed as it's not within one row.

This is going to be a b*gger to code in SQL - and there was me thinking I nearly had it! :(

Hey-ho, back to the drawing board... :cool:

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Ok! Got it! :cool:

One further question:

Weapons and prototype - presumably if I use this, it applies to a particular weapon system (i.e. if I have two separate types of phaser on board - it applies to one only).

What I need to know is - is the cost/purchase spent per actual system or for all of them?

For example, I have a ship with two Type X Phasers (OV 10 each). Applying the Prototype (Beam +1) trait, gives me OV 11 for 2 space.

If I do this once, are the results:

2 x Phaser Type X (Total OV 2 x (10 + 1) = 22) costing (2 x 6) + 2 = 14

2 x Phaser Type X (Total OV 2 x (10 + 1) = 22) costing 2 x (6 + 2) = 16

or

1 x Phaser Type X (Total OV 10 + 1 = 11) costing 6 + 2 = 8, plus 1 x Phaser Type X (Total OV 10) costing 6, Total OV 21, cost 14

If I buy a separate Type IX phaser, it's completely unaffected, correct?

Thanks! (I think I'm nearly there!)

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Originally posted by Imagus
1 x Phaser Type X (Total OV 10 + 1 = 11) costing 6 + 2 = 8, plus 1 x Phaser Type X (Total OV 10) costing 6, Total OV 21, cost 14

If I buy a separate Type IX phaser, it's completely unaffected, correct?

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This is the correct one. Wow, when you type it out like that it seems a lot more complicated! :D

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Originally posted by Don Mappin
This is the correct one. Wow, when you type it out like that it seems a lot more complicated! :D

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Ah, thanks!

Sorry about that - it was the only way I could state what I meant clearly (four or five attempts at rephrasing it just didn't work!) :cool:

Any thoughts on the mixing generic and race-specific equipment for members of that race? (4 posts up.)

Thanks again :)

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Originally posted by Don Mappin
Someone might be wondering why bother with the trait at all? After all, in my example the FSQ + prototype has the same cost and overall stats as the FSR-2. So what's the point?

The point is that there is a 20 year availability difference in the systems. By using the prototype trait you've saved 2 space points (2 space per decade, 20 years = 4 space), but only for that one vessel. If you want to build a whole line of ships using the FSR-2 before 2370 then you have to pay the availability cost (NG pg 137).

Prototype lets you do it cheaper for one vessel only. Again, the intention is to add character or a wrinkle to a ship.

Hope that helps.

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Then, why do some of the writeups in Starships have the Prototype edge/flaw for a class of ships, like the Nova?

I don't understand what to do when applying the prototype trait to a warp engine when you're at the end of the OCU scale. If you want to "improve" the ship's warp drive with this trait, moving it up two shifts gives you a much slower and less reliable engine according to the table in Starships, which translates both OCU and MCU warp factors to c.

How should one shift between these two sections of the table?

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Originally posted by Mazza
I don't understand what to do when applying the prototype trait to a warp engine when you're at the end of the OCU scale. If you want to "improve" the ship's warp drive with this trait, moving it up two shifts gives you a much slower and less reliable engine according to the table in Starships, which translates both OCU and MCU warp factors to c.

How should one shift between these two sections of the table?

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I believe you can't based on one of the questions above (RE: see the third post of this thread). I think the OCU and MCU are technically separate tables and you can't "cross" tables with the prototype trait. Maybe as an alternative you could use the enhanced system edge instead if you're intent on improving the warp engine or replacing the warp engine all togethor. As a reference you can take a look at the official ship write ups of the refitted ships between generations, like the D-7 or Constitution as an example.

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Originally posted by Space_Cadet
I believe you can't based on one of the questions above (RE: see the third post of this thread). I think the OCU and MCU are technically separate tables and you can't "cross" tables with the prototype trait. Maybe as an alternative you could use the enhanced system edge instead if you're intent on improving the warp engine or replacing the warp engine all togethor. As a reference you can take a look at the official ship write ups of the refitted ships between generations, like the D-7 or Constitution as an example.

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Maybe I will do that. I am just looking at the ships in the Expanded Spacecraft Operations fanbook, and the Constellation class has a prototype LN-72 engine. Now, it gives the speed for this prototype engine as 3/4/5 MCU. The speed for the basic engine is 8/10/13 OCU. In effect the ship has been "upgraded" from 512c / 1000c / 2197c to 39c / 102c / 214c. :o

Off topic, there is an offical version of the Constellation class on this board or here

http://www.starbase-coda.com/files/b...stellation.pdf

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Originally posted by Space_Cadet
Off topic, there is an offical version of the Constellation class on this board or here

http://www.starbase-coda.com/files/b...stellation.pdf

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Thanks Space Cadet! :D

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Originally posted by Mazza
I don't understand what to do when applying the prototype trait to a warp engine when you're at the end of the OCU scale. If you want to "improve" the ship's warp drive with this trait, moving it up two shifts gives you a much slower and less reliable engine according to the table in Starships, which translates both OCU and MCU warp factors to c.

How should one shift between these two sections of the table?

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Space_Cadet is right - by my understanding (from the original conversation I had with Don over this one), you can't shift between the "early" and "late " tech parts of the table. Similarly you can't shift across cultural technologies (from Cardassian to Romulan techs).

If you did want to cross tech periods, you could convert the two scales back and forth and use that as a basis.

One thing to remember (and the one that causes the most confusion) is that shifts are not "row shifts" per se. Don (semi-successfully) explains the concept at the beginning of this thread. In your example, you wouldn't count the row you're looking at, because that isn't a bonus! Keep going until you get to one.

I don't think it will ever be possible to explain this one clearly! :rolleyes: