Enlisted as a first officer?

Hi all,

The Vulcan doctor in our group has retired, the player having expressed the wish to play something allowing more freedom.

My players regularly lurking in here (Hi, Loryk! Hi, Page! Hi, Doyt!), I cannot talk about the player's concept, but he wants to be enlisted, at a high grade nonetheless (all other players being from ltn. to cdr.).

The current player playing the XO may have to leave town in 6 months if his work decides.

So I'd like the new character to be able to fill the position if needed.

My question would be: can an old and experience enlisted officer (a la O'Brien) become XO on a small ship, say the size of an Intrepid class? Or is it completely nonsense to the chain of command and ranks?

Thanks!

Technically? No.

However, this being Trek, and the game based around your players, there are ways and means to fix this. After all, your example of O'Brien shows a situation where an Enlisted man outranks many officers (at Least Junior Officers)

Firstly, it depends on the time scale. If you game is Dominion War (or post war) based then it is possible that many of the rules will have been thrown out of the window as neccesity over-ruled the Standard Operating procedures.

Of course, chances are that Starfleet would have offered a field Commission to at least Lt. Commander, so the player would likely need a fairly good reason to turn that down.

Then there is a second oftion.

Master of the Boat, now I don't know about it's real-life version, but I see this role as a Senior NCO aboard ship, effectively XO for the NCO's aboard ship.

Now following that option, offer this position and then choose from the following 2 situations.

1 - The real XO is an NPC, and the player as the senior Ranking member of the PC's is effectively the Group leader.

or
2 - With the departure of the XO, the Captain may defer a replacement due to lack of candidates and commitment, now someone will need to fill the seat, and who better than the Master of the Boat to serve as 'Acting XO' until such time as a permament crewmember can fill that position (which as Narrator, you know is an indefinite amount of time)...

Thanks Dan for your insights! That answers perfectly - if I want to do this, I'll then have to find a solid explanation.

The timeframe is not really the DW - but we're approaching it (if the XO leaves, that will be at the beginning of DS9's s5). The ship is also a rather new concept (being the Ascendant with the holographic AI a la Andromeda) so I can use these two as a reason, but I'll have to explain why the ltn playing with us won't be offered the seat. (I'd like to avoid having an NPC as XO)

However could you detail the "Master of the Boat" notion? I'm not so familiar with some Navy notions. (Btw, would you know of a website explaining this notions to the mundane? I find my culture lacking in some areas) Thanks a lot! :)

Slight correction.

The title is 'Chief of the Boat', and I think its a US Navy Submarine position (Any of you Navy Guys correct me if I am wrong).

Heres an amusing description in a Peom of all places.

But heres the real job description;

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"Chief of the Boat - The senior enlisted member on board the submarine. Assists and advises the commanding officer and executive officer on matters regarding the good order and discipline of the crew. Personnel assigned as chiefs of the boat are the top leaders in the enlisted community."

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I had bastardised this for Trek by making it the Senior NCO aboard ship, reporting to the Captain like the rest of the senior staff. I did a short write-up for the Venture a while back, but will need to hunt that down when I get home.

I strongly suggest not to make him XO. If the player expressed wishes to play an enlisted character he probably new that he would not have such responsibilities and most probably that was part why he choose to do it.

It sounds like something of a reach -in most organizations, enlisted men aren't supposed to give orders. Senior enlisted men (i.e. petty officers) are to see to it that the orders of officers are followed. Indeed the main job of an officer is that of decision making and the giving of orders (and of course following the orders of superiors).

It is possible for someone to be in a position where he gives orders to someone of a superior rank (i.e. a Lt. Cmdr XO in command of a ship due to a missing CO with a full Cmdr as Chief Engineer). However, an enlisted man would probably not be eligible for a command position.

Even were it possible, it also would be rather awkward for the various senior officers aboard ship. If memory serves, all of O'Brien's staff were enlisted men, so he was never in the position of giving an order to someone who outranked him.

My suggestion would be to make the XO an NPC but have the character play a senior enlisted man - like Dan G's chief of boat idea (though the term is popular in Star Trek games, that term in modern navies is used for submarines and other small vessels - larger vessels use the term bosun for their senior enlisted man - I'd use whichever you like better). After all, while enlisted men are not supposed to give orders, a smart officer will make use of the experience and skills of all his crew, including senior enlisted men.

Disclaimer... All my opinion. Other games may do fine doing the total opposite of what I do.

Actually having had a think about it I would say technically yes.

The reason that OBrien was able to have command over his fellow engineering staff was because - effectivelly - the commanding officer ordered it.

I would argue in that case that a commanding officer (The CO or Commander if there is no CO) could give the effective order that a Non comminnsioned officer *could* be his FO - or even effectivelly in charge.

However that said I also imply here *COULD* - I highly doubt he would unless it was exceptional circumstances.

Generally officers are given command because they have full Starfleet training in how to handle themselves, and how to interpret general orders / follow the chain of command and undertand their responsibilities with respects to the prime (and lesser) directives.

That said - thinking to Troi, who laterly gained a bridge certification - it could be possible a high ranking NONCOM could get such a certification. Taking it asside from a pure game mechanics issue - while Troi had an effective rank, she wasn't really an officer in the same sense as the rest of the bridge officers. She had to earn the right to become an *actual* officer and serve bridge time - so in that sense you can *Still* get the neccessary training, either as a background expenditure (at a GM's discretion of course) or as an in game training excercise - which could make for a good side plot for your players!

it's the same point for most of the medical doctors. They are all given an effective *rank*, because they need it to be able to order other officers around, but they aren't bridge officers unless they sit that test - and in that sense they are no more qualified than an NCO to be an FO - it's just that game mechanics don't account for this (Much like how one of my players bitched that he should be a Lieutennant, as he had taken the MO template, and usually doctors are given an effective Lieutennant rank, not Ensign - I told him to pay the poiints for it! :D)

There is also the option of a Brevet promotion - Kira nerys has *NO* Starfleet training, yet she holds a rank within Starfleet because she has a similar rank in her own right and becaus she is trusted. SO it is not without the context of a game that someone who is known and trusted by a high ranking Starfleet officer couldn't get such a promotion - but again I would also recommend they put in for *bridge certification* (whatever game mechanics you want here :))

Just my two pennies...

I think that O'Brien as 'Chief' is not being referred to as 'Chief Of The Boat' but as CPO or Chief Petty Officer, which in the Royal Navy is the snior NCO on board.
That said, it is possible that O'Brien was 'Chief' as he was the Chief Engineer on DS9 (another RN tradition is the use of Chief as a title when Chief of a department).
It would seem to me that althought ST uses naval terminolgy for the SF personnel ranks, it is a bit of a hodge podge of naval terms from around the world.
Given Rodenberry's details that the ship was Hornblower-esque, I think there are arguments that Bo'sun be used, but as it aint canon, 'Chief' to my mind is CPO.

Cheers
Tas

Oh, and btw....

Petty Officers and Chief Petty Officers have been promoted into the Officer Ranks (beginning as Sub-Leftenant in the Royal Navy/ Lieunant, JG in US and others I assume). So maybe this would be after sitting the exam from the OCS of Starfleet, to hold a bridge position a la Troi in previous replies?

Cheers

Tas

I beleive it was stated several times in the show that Chief O-Brien was 'Chief of Operations (not engineering, Engineering is technically is a sub department of Operations)

he was also stated as being a Non Commissioned officer, and was given the role because he was an experienced operater.. and because he only ever did 5-6 minutes of work per episode on TNG, and they thought he needed to do more :)

It's a vague assumption, because while it's assumed that his rank was naval - I.e. Chief Petty Officer, I don't know if it was ever actually stated as such?

As a matter of course most of the time it did not matter that he was an officer, as most of his 'crew' were not actually Stafleet, but Bajoran technicians. Since he was not a bridge officer it didn't really pose any problems for him to be an NCO, because he was simply in charge of his department - and as a rule, you don't need to be knowledgeable on the prime directive and general orders if you're in Engineering :)

Oops!

Chief Engineer? I did mean Chief of Operations, but got mixed up as am scribbling notes for a new adventure involving the engineer PC.....

Thanks for pointing that out, Tobian.


Cheers
Tas

Being Chief of OPS is completely different thing than to being XO.
O'Brian got this post because of his experience. That is ok. Being an technican for all his career he most probably knows a lot about it and since it was a cardassian station and no Starfleet one, where everything runs on routine, his hands on experience was very useful - however a NCO can never have better experience suited for XO position than a real officer. You do not become XO as first post. You have to walk through a load of departments before that. Essentially the XO is the same as the Captain except the field experience. But remember if the Captain is not available the XO has to step in.

Thank you very much for your input! There are a lot of great ideas there and I see a lot better how I could tackle the problem.

As I'm already toying a lot with protocol (the Ascendant's crew is as renowned - and debatable - as Kirk) I think I'll try to go the safest route and find a way to make things as consistent as possible with the normal hierarchy, unless a great scenario opportunity pops up. The head of the boat idea is great, as it fits well with the player's concept (having an old and experienced officer who believes in field work and regularly refused promotions), but I think the best would be to have him make an officer anyway.

I see him tonight, I'll let you know how things go. :)

If you're on a ship with 1 captain and another NCO - they it shouldn't be a problem to be FO :)

Like I said it's pretty much unlikelly, but I think it could be possible given exceptional circumstances. - I forget the name of the episode, but the one with Red Squad in it would be a prime example - where all the crew weren't even NCO's !

During wartime issues such as rank can melt away and become very fluid - because needs must. O'Brien was a highly experienced NCO with experience of the Cardassians, and a skilled technician. I would argue that he had just as much right to be FO as any one else on the crew, based on experience.. hence he was often put in such roles once the situation became more desperate (blowing the rules out of the window). Nog, who hadn't even finished his academy training was made an Ensign - yet he effectivelly outranked O'Brien - but in real world situations it would be highly anomalous he would have seniority - and that bore out in the series.

Weather this is completelly feasible also depends on the size of ship you are talking about. vbeing serious again - if we are talking about a Galaxy Class ship - it's almost certain never to run out of Officers of one sort - but an Oberth class ship - Defiant class, or runabout - something small with only a handful of crew, then you are likelly only to have a couple of Officers at all! so then it could be likelly!

Peacetime is another matter of course! :)

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Originally posted by Dan Gurden
Slight correction.

The title is 'Chief of the Boat', and I think its a US Navy Submarine position (Any of you Navy Guys correct me if I am wrong).

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That's correct, Dan.

On surface ships, the senior enlisted advisor is called the "Command Master Chief." Of course, if a senior chief petty officer is in the senior enlisted advisor position (instead of a master chief petty officer), he would be called "Command Senior Chief."

In an epsoide I saw the other day,O'Brian said his rank was Sr. Chief Specialist.
Of course he was wearing Ens. insignias ;)

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Originally posted by WarriorKnight
In an epsoide I saw the other day,O'Brian said his rank was Sr. Chief Specialist.
Of course he was wearing Ens. insignias ;)

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WarriorKnight beat me to it.:D

I use the idea of Chief of the boat in my campaigns either as a player character or NPC. The idea of the enlisted crewmen always having a voice on the senior staff just makes sense to me. Another note is that in the Federation pretty much everyone has the equivalent of a college education, so would qualify for OCS if they desired the responsibility. (Assuming that OCS exists. It's never been noted that I'm aware of. All officers are Star Fleet Academy graduates)

I just can't see enlisted personnel serving in such a position as first officer. Senior enlisted persons are a well used resource by officers, some senior enlisted having much more experience. However, the first officer position is best given to an officer.

On the other hand, it is not uncommon to see an all enlisted watch aboard some U.S. warships. While it is not normal practice, it does happen. The first time I belive being about eight or nine years ago. So while I wouldn't see this enlisted character as first officer, I would not be far fetched to see the character leading a watch.

If your interested I could find the article that was done about the first all enlisted watch aboard a U.S. ship, I have it around somewhere.

:confused: forgive me for not understanding the subject you all are discussing ......but according too two of my uncles,my father and two first cousins who have been in the Navy authority wheter enlisted/nco or officer is based on position held aboard a ship not rank....so it is possible for someone who lets say a chief engineer with a nco rank can tell a officer what to do or do with him/her self if the situation was in the engineering room(but this very much excludes the captain if he is in the engine room)

"forgive me for not understanding the subject you all are discussing ......but according too two of my uncles,my father and two first cousins who have been in the Navy authority wheter enlisted/nco or officer is based on position held aboard a ship not rank....so it is possible for someone who lets say a chief engineer with a nco rank can tell a officer what to do or do with him/her self if the situation was in the engineering room(but this very much excludes the captain if he is in the engine room)"

This is a usual situation. The officers involved defer to the specialists in certain situations. Command decisions still lie with the ranking officer. Watching DS9 again (have the whole lot on video) there are numerous times when O'Brien is giving orders to Ensigns and the like. It's a similar kinda thing when the CMO confines an officer to sickbay etc. In ST Captain's typically dont take to being confined, but the CMO does have jurisdiction in medical matters (most extreme case: Certifying an officer unfit for duty/relieving them of command, a la Commodore Decker in TOS)

Cheers

Tas

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Originally posted by skree
:confused: forgive me for not understanding the subject you all are discussing ......but according too two of my uncles,my father and two first cousins who have been in the Navy authority wheter enlisted/nco or officer is based on position held aboard a ship not rank....so it is possible for someone who lets say a chief engineer with a nco rank can tell a officer what to do or do with him/her self if the situation was in the engineering room(but this very much excludes the captain if he is in the engine room)

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Actually, at least in the Navy I served in, you would probably never find a chief filling a department head billet on any ship of significance. Now, you will often find a chief filling a division officer role, and smart department heads will rely heavily on their chiefs as the subject matter experts in their fields.

Still, the final decision will lie with the officer. That's what they get paid for. ;)

It is different when it comes to technical specialists in a field as oposed to officers, certainly with respects to Startrek. In the case of a technical specialist - he's the guy (or gal :)) who has to make the technical decisions based on their knowledge and or experience - so I think they would always be given a discretionary 'command' based on their competencies.

For example - you have 1 officer with 6 months of experience and no Engineering knowledge and 1 chief engineer with an NCO status and knows the warp drive like the back of his hand. Yeah the officer may well be a bright spark, best of his class yadda yadda yadda - but it's not like he can read the instruction manual when they are about to have a warp core breach!

Same would go with any of the specialist departments - sciences - medical - counseling - these are all experts in their respective fields.. They are doing what they get 'paid' for :D However they are not officers - they are not specialists in command - that's wha officers are.... if the chief engineer has to order 3 men to their deaths so that he can get the warp core back online - should that be in the hands of an NCO?

Generally that is the idea - officers have to make the hard choices, they have the greater responsibility to the shp as a whole. If you recall Deanna Troi's bridge certification - she had a similar hard choice - she was up all night trying to get the hang of the technical schematics of the enterprise - but what she didn't realise is she didn't need to know it - the choice she had to make was who would live and who would die!

I think the grey line comes in Startrek. It is tremendously hard for someone to go from from an NCO to a Commissioned officer, without a formalised Starfleet training, but then I wonder, can you do an 'open university' course to get it if you have the qualifications as certainly people have been given brevet promotions on the show - that's tougher to answer :)

The biggest difference between Star Trek and the real world is that all officers are also technical specialists. Enlisted personnel are basic maintenance, operations and administrative personnel, and only the most experienced enlists begin to rival officers in their technical knowledge.

In game terms, that would be when the enlist finally qualifies for and takes a starship officer elite profession (like Senior Chief O'Brien).

I certainly wouldn't allow a Star Trek enlisted character to be a department head without an elite profession, and, even then, only on very small commands (less than 50 crew)...Miles O'Brien should be the extremely rare exception to the rule, rather than being representative of enlists in Star Trek.

Hmm I'm notr sure I see your point about Officers in Startrek NOT being specialists?

Most of the officers on the shows are shown to be of the best in their respective fields - Beverly Crusher was an officer and she was head of Starfleet medical for a time - Geordi La forge - expert engineer - Worf - Expert combat specialist and amongst the best combat specialist around.. and on... ?

It's just that they have the addition of their dual responsibilities as a senior officer on board?

How is this different from the real world modern military ? The emphasis placed and the style of it (more relaxed and less militaristic in Starfleet - on some counts but not all) are different but they operate allot alike in respects that offiicers are the best of the best?

I think the best way to have an NCO be an important "command" character, would be to have a character like the chief from U-571. Not a command officer, but the wise and experienced seaman. The guy who doesn't give orders, but the CO has come to trust and sometimes rely on his opinion.

Thank you so much guys. This is really a treasure grove of information!! And that gives me a lot to build upon and to think about.

We created the new character. The COB idea appealed a lot to the player. We managed to make an experienced enlisted character with RRT training, very focused on discipline and rigid, quite wary of "them officers" and ready to defend his fellow enlisted crewmen. That promises to be very interesting as all three other players are officers (CO, XO, science dpt. head).

Again, all my thanks for your help, thanks to you we turned the player's character concept from something not really playable to a character that has the best chances of interacting with the previously established PCs :)

None of the Star Trek series explained rank very well. I remember that for a long time it was assumed that the entire crew of the original Enterprise were all officers - no enlisted at all, so it doesn't surprise me that the rank of "Chief" is so poorly defined. O'Brien could have been a senior noncommissioned officer, but I tend to think he is what the current US military calls a Warrant Officer. A Warrant is almost universally called "Chief" and they are always technical specialists, which fits in with comments O'Brien made during the series. The one I remember best was some tool of O'Brien's was missing and, I think, Bashir said words to the effect that "maybe so and so borrowed it." O'Brien replied with words to the effect of "No one just borrows a chief's tools." This fits in that he's not a commissioned officer, but has sufficient prestige that would prevent a junior person from just crowding his territory.
Warrants are almost always long time enlisted that are selected to become Warrants because the service realizes they have an area of special expertise and are "Suject matter Experts" in a given field. They do not usually command others, but their rank and pure experience gives them authority over others when it comes to their given field. Enlisted would certainly report to a warrant and even junior officers could, if they are in need of learning from such a master of his craft.
The original question of could a senior enlisted be the XO of a ship? My thought would be only if the ship is very small and there is only one officer - by curtesy called captain regardless of rank - on the ship.

Junior officers are generalist, they know a little about a lot of subjects, NCOs specialize in just a few, that's their job. The Ensigns may be in charge of a team of enlisted specialists and would be well advised to listen to CPOs for guidance, but the ultimate responsibility lies with the ensigns, that's why they're in command positions, to get that command experience and learn from the specialist before they transfer to another department to learn more about something else.
So by the time that officer makes Lt., he'll hopefully know enough about his department to make department or section head. The NCOs will just have learned about their specialities.
In RPG terms, the officer gains knowledge in maybe 6 skills, the NCO get the same advancements in only 2 or 3 skills.
As for an NCO as XO, only on small vessels. But the Chief of the Boat, or Senior/Master Chief Petty Officer, or whatever you wind up calling the position is the liasion between the officers and the enlisted. Crewmen do not complain to officers, complaints follow the chain of command, "going over someone's head" is a BIG no no.

I just found this thread and I have to disagree with the concept of Chief O'Brian "out-ranking" the Junior Officers. As a real "Junior Officer" in the military, I deal with many Chiefs. Technically I outrank them, however, a Chief, at least in the Army, is a technical expert and as such his opinion in a matter is generally accepted over a junior officer. I imagine Chiefs in the Navy (Star Fleet type military hierachy) are in the same situation. A chief gives a recomemendation of a course of action and the officer makes the descion. MOST of the time the final outcome is what the Chief suggests. Chief O'Brian is a lot like a Maintenance Chief in the Army for what he does. A Maintenance Chief is just about a Pseudo-God in the Army. They keep Battalions moving and again MOST of the time what they say goes. If I do not think something is feasable that I am ordered to do, I will seek out my Chief of Maintenance and get a second opinion. If he is "won" over to my side, the deal is about 90% clenched. However as we all know, Commanders have their own pet projects and sometimes in the military we do something we don't agree with (LOL)...
... Sixlegs

I've done quite a bit of research on the subject matter, as I run a different science fiction game with a far more militaristic bent.

There are a few different issues involved here. I'll cover the initial question first:

No. An enlisted crewman, no matter how high ranked or how much experience he has would never be given the kind of authority a vessel's Executive Officer wields. Any command experience the enlisted crewman may have is limited to a very small area of expertise.

Using aircraft carriers as an example, the posting of Executive Officer is actually two steps away from recieving your own carrier command. After serving as an Executive Officer on a carrier, the prospective Commanding Officer is actually assigned as CO to some other deep draft vessel. Only after a tour there is he eligible to command one of the most valuable vessels in the US Navy arsenal.

It is remotely possible that an enlisted man could be the second highest ranking crewman on a very small vessel, but such a vessel would be one that Starfleet was comfortable putting an officer as low ranked as Lieutenant in command of. (A historical example of this would be PT boats.) Even then, he's still not "Executive Officer," the post does not exist.

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As for enlisted or warrant officers giving orders to commissioned officers, it doesn't happen. However, senior enlisted tend to have far more time-in-service and far more time-on-station than the officers they work under. Any officer who doesn't listen to the recommendations of his older and wiser senior enlisted is a probably fool and will quickly find himself in a paper-pushing billet where he can do no harm.

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On the issue of authority - the military has two ways they determine who has authority. The first, and most common is rank. The second, and somewhat more complex, is positional authority. Positional authority is based on what your job entails. For the most part, positional authority lines up with the normal chain of command, but it doesn't always.

Using the aircraft carrier as an example, Admirals typically station thier flag onboard the largest ship in the battle group. In the case of carrier groups, this is always the carrier itself. When it comes to the operations of the entire battle group as a unit in a larger engagement, the Admiral has authority because that's his job. When it comes to the day-to-day operation of the ship, such as watch schedules or deciding which squadrons get which assignments, the Captain of the ship has positional authority.

Getting back to the Trek questions, it is positional authority that allows the Cheif Medical Officer to relieve other officers of thier duties, despite a superior rank.

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To put this all in different terms, I'm going to paste in an explaination I use in the rules document I wrote for a different system I plan to run Star Trek in one of these days, Fuzion. Character creation in Fuzion is entirely points based, but I think these snippets (with numbers attached) will illustrate the organizational points I'm trying to make:

Assignment [1 per level base, special]
Some positions have greater responsibilities, more stringent training requirements, and tougher qualification criteria. Most characters never have more than one Assignment of a given level, but may have the responsibilities of a lower level as part of their duties.
* Any character who lacks subordinates effectively has a Level 0 assignment.
* Section Leaders (Level 1) are the lowest rung in starship or facility administration. They tend to be in charge of small parts of larger departments. Shuttlecraft (part of the Operations Department), Impulse Propulsion (part of Engineering), or Child Care (part of Medical) are examples of sections.
* Department Head (Level 2) is the senior member of a given division of the ship. They have a number of section leaders under them.
* Line Officers (Level 3) are qualified to take command of a vessel should the need arise. Typically the Chief Engineer, Operations Chief, and occasionally the Chief Medical Officer, are in truth Line Officers instead of Department Heads.
* Executive Officer (Level 4) is second only to the commanding officer. On some ships, the XO fills a Department Head position as well.
* Commanding Officer (Level 5) is the highest authority on board a ship. In Starfleet, the Commanding Officer is also Department Head of Command, putting promotions and reassignments under his control.
Higher levels of Assignment are general station-based, administrative positions. In the Federation, the Admiral in charge of a fleet (an example of a Level 6 assignment) is permitted to have a single vessel under his direct command.

Assignment Impact
Frigate, Escort, or Outpost - x1
Destroyer, Cruiser, or Station - x2
Explorer, Battleship, or Command - x3

Assignment Example
The Galaxy-class Enterprise is an Explorer, so all of these positions carry a cost multiplier of x3.
* Captain Picard is not only the Commanding Officer (15 Op) of the Enterprise; he is also a Line Officer and Department Head of Command according to Starfleet policy. He is considered Section Leader of the Bridge whenever he is present.
* Commander Riker is Executive Officer (12 Op), and a Line Officer by default. He is also Department Head of Flight Control. He is considered Section Leader of the Bridge when he is present but Picard is not.
* Lt. Commander Data is a Line Officer (9 Op) and Department Head of Operations. When Picard and Riker are absent, he is Section Leader of the Bridge. Any other Line Officers fall after him, but they too are considered Section Leader of the Bridge under the right circumstances.
* Lt. Commander LaForge is Department Head of Engineering (6 Op) and Section Leader of Warp Propulsion. He could delegate the second assignment to a subordinate, but chooses not to.
* Dr. Crusher is Department Head of Medical, but doesn't take any particular section as her own. Though not apparent at the beginning of the series, she is also a Line Officer (9 Op).
* Worf is Department Head of both Security (6 Op) and Tactical (also 6 Op). He is not technically a Line Officer, but is often left in command of the bridge, Section Leader, when it is impossible, unnecessary, or inconvenient to summon Dr. Crusher.
* Counselor Troi is only Section Leader of Mental Health (3 Op), and therefore subordinate to Dr. Crusher. She eventually seeks training to become a Line Officer (an additional 6 Op).

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I hope this helps.

If the ship is small enough, its actually possible for an enlisted man to be the commander of the ship. This is common with landing craft used since World War Two and with the River Patrol Boats used during Viet Nam.

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Originally posted by Pericles
If the ship is small enough, its actually possible for an enlisted man to be the commander of the ship. This is common with landing craft used since World War Two and with the River Patrol Boats used during Viet Nam.

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While technically true, I'm not sure I'd call that "commander of the ship." That's almost like saying an enlisted soldier is the commander of the car he borrows from the motor pool. :)

I did a quick web search and found the following link to make sure I remembered this correctly:
The website shows the Petty Officer was offically classified as captain. The following is an excerpt from the above link.

"The PBR was manned by a four man crew - normally a first class petty officer as boat captain, a gunner's mate, an engineman and a seaman. Each crewman was cross trained in each other's job encase one became unable to carry out his duties. Generally PBRs operated in two boat patrols under the command of a patrol officer who rode one of the boats in addition to the normal crew."

As for the landing craft of WW2...most history buffs remember the famous scene of General Douglas MacArthur wading through the surf to "return" to the Phillipines, what is less know is that wading wasn't his idea. The Petty Officer Coxwain who was in charge of the landing craft the general was on, didn't think the landing craft could get any closer to the shore and not be damaged. As Coxwain of the landing craft, and technically captain, the coxwain refused to get any closer and on his authority as master of that vessel, this junior enlisted man made a FIVE STAR GENERAL get out and walk in the surf. Never one to miss the opportunity to blow his own horn, MacArthur then thought walking through the surf would make a great photo op, he reinacted the wading scene several times for the waiting cameras and newsreels. So regardless of size of vessel, the title of Captain or Coxwain carries a lot of weight.
Obviously the Trekverse doesn't have anything like the PBRs used in Viet Nam, but the point was could an enlisted man be a first officer. I submit that in a small ship with only one officer he could be, or on a small enough ship he could even be listed as captain.

Maybe on something like a runabout or a shuttle - the closest things to an RPB and a transport, respectively - but neither of these is a capital ship. Neither of them has enough crew to require an Executive Officer, and I certainly wouldn't call the pilot a Commanding Officer. He's just the guy driving... and probably the one who's responsible if something does happen. That gives him a certain measure of authority, but far less than the Captain of a vessel.

"Obviously the Trekverse doesn't have anything like the PBRs used in Viet Nam, but the point was could an enlisted man be a first officer. I submit that in a small ship with only one officer he could be, or on a small enough ship he could even be listed as captain."

On a ship that small, there simply wouldn't be a first officer - there's no need. "First officer" or "executive officer" does not simply means "second in command." It's far more than that - it's an administrative position, and on a ship as small as a runabout you just don't need an XO. The senior crewman/officer commands the vessel directly.

I agree, any vessel small enough to have an enlisted man as captain would be far too small to need an XO, but as the MacArthur and PBR examples point out, he's still called the captain and has as much authority over his vessel as any ship of the line.
Given the administrative nature of the executive officer, I would guess that in a grouping of such small boats, one officer would be in command of the squadron and the most senior enlisted man would have appointed duties very similar to that of XO even without the official title.
Regardless of the semantics, we would be dealing with very small ships and the original question was could an enlisted be XO. I think we all agree that, aside from on the tiniest ships, the answer is no.

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Originally posted by Owen E Oulton
"Obviously the Trekverse doesn't have anything like the PBRs used in Viet Nam, but the point was could an enlisted man be a first officer. I submit that in a small ship with only one officer he could be, or on a small enough ship he could even be listed as captain."

On a ship that small, there simply wouldn't be a first officer - there's no need. "First officer" or "executive officer" does not simply means "second in command." It's far more than that - it's an administrative position, and on a ship as small as a runabout you just don't need an XO. The senior crewman/officer commands the vessel directly.

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Actually, on a PBR or other small boat, there is an "Officer in Charge," not a commanding officer. Most PBR/small boats are organized into squadrons, with a single commanding officer over a group of boats. And the squadron would have an XO (who would be an officer).

Now, that said, the OIC of an individual boat could conceivable be a chief petty officer (although most likely a young ensign or lieutenant, j.g.).