[New Frontier] What Do You Think?

Do you like New Frontier? Would you like to see it made into a series or possible one shot made-for-TV flick?

I think a movie off the first story arc would be kind of cool...except for that whole Great Bird of the Galaxy thing...:o

3 parts, each an hour long on the adventures of Captain Calhoun and his intrepid crew...sounds cool to me, what do you think?

Oh, or maybe a a new 3 part movie for TV that shows the aftermath of the Dominion War. One crew taking us from place to place, seeing how the chips fell...that'd be cool too! :)

I know a lot of people think the New Frontier novels are the Star Trek equivalent of Shakespeare, but I'm afraid to say I'm not one of them.

There was a day when I loved Peter David's work (Rock and a Hard place for instance) but now I just can't read it.

Each to their own, and I'm glad people enjoy them, but I'm afraid I just can't stand them.

Personally, i think the New Frontire series is very good. Right up there with the DS9 relaunch set.

If paramount could be persuaded to do a few mini's, i'd certainly watch :)

Sundowner

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Originally posted by Capt Daniel Hunter
I know a lot of people think the New Frontier novels are the Star Trek equivalent of Shakespeare, but I'm afraid to say I'm not one of them.

There was a day when I loved Peter David's work (Rock and a Hard place for instance) but now I just can't read it.

Each to their own, and I'm glad people enjoy them, but I'm afraid I just can't stand them.

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Worth repeating...in bold!

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Originally posted by Don Mappin
Worth repeating...in bold!

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Personally, I always thought David's scrawlings were the Trek publishing equivalent of Mad Dog 20-20. The first two books of the New Frontier series did nothing to disabuse me of that notion. I've not picked one up since.

Well I personally think it is crap. Sorry for the harsh words but taking a view on David's long history in ST novels he simply did to many canon mistakes and speaking of the galaxy bird - that really spoiled the series for me.

While I think the idea of a virtual series in novel form is nice, I already disliked the Captain of the Excalibur. Calhoun somehow reminds me of Paul Atreides but in my eyes is no good Starfleet Captain. Additionally I had the impression that at least in the beginning all of the senior officer seem to hate each other and there are no average guys. Each of them has a special ability and/ or a traumatic past, which makes the whole thing overloaded.

I've only read a couple of the NF books. Thought they were "OK".

Just out of curiosity who is the "average guy" in the other series?

"Additionally I had the impression that at least in the beginning all of the senior officer seem to hate each other and there are no average guys. Each of them has a special ability and/ or a traumatic past, which makes the whole thing overloaded."

One thing to remember with Peter David is that he began as a superhero comic writer, and has never shed that mindset.

^^^Ain't that the truth.

He butchered Shelby pretty good too. Oh, and the Captain and First Officer romantically linked? (Were they married?) :rolleyes:

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Originally posted by Don Mappin
He butchered Shelby pretty good too. Oh, and the Captain and First Officer romantically linked? (Were they married?) :rolleyes:

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I always thought that Shelby needed a bit of a re-work. At least she is a team player in NF. Also, I liked that Jellico finally got his Admiral's Pip.

I beleive they were married in later part of the series.

Talking Mugato... 'nuff said.

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Originally posted by Phantom
Just out of curiosity who is the "average guy" in the other series?

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In TOS Spock was the only non-average person as being first Vulcan in Starfleet and with all his Vulcan Mind stuff and meditation. Krik was also special due to his fast career but that is it.

In TNG Data took Spocks role and Geordi was special as well due to his Visor skills. Counting Wesley to the main cast would also make him special - although he lacked much experience and did some quite dumb things as well.

DS9 actually had only Odo having "supernatural" skills and the emmissary plot of Sisko later gave hims this visions but that is it.

Voyager had the Doc, although he had not so many skills other Docs had not shown before - his skills were obviously bound to story limits.

Enterprise also has the Doc and T'Pol but all others crew members are rather average. Hoshis language skills also stick out but that is it.

The rest of the cast is rather average without special abilities or dramas I'd say.

He ruined Shelby, and butchered Jellicoe. Jellicoe was a jerk, but he wasn't the pencil-necked ass David writes him as.

Although I've only read the first six books (essentially the first story arc), I tend to agree with the majority of the sentiments here: While a few elements of NF were interesting but the series was too "comic booky."

The initial concept: Federation survey and exploration of a collapsed empire is rife with adventure: Civil wars; Diplomatic negotiations; Political machinations; Lost imperial secrets; etc.

As for "ruining Jellico," I'm not so sure about that. Jellico was a control freak; As a desk-riding Admiral he would be the worst sort of pencil-pushing bureaucrat. So, the characterization might not be too far off the mark. Jellico was better in the command of a ship than a desk . . . even if he was a jerk.

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Originally posted by Evan van Eyk
In TOS Spock was the only non-average person as being first Vulcan in Starfleet and with all his Vulcan Mind stuff and meditation. Krik was also special due to his fast career but that is it.

In TNG Data took Spocks role and Geordi was special as well due to his Visor skills. Counting Wesley to the main cast would also make him special - although he lacked much experience and did some quite dumb things as well.

DS9 actually had only Odo having "supernatural" skills and the emmissary plot of Sisko later gave hims this visions but that is it.

Voyager had the Doc, although he had not so many skills other Docs had not shown before - his skills were obviously bound to story limits.

Enterprise also has the Doc and T'Pol but all others crew members are rather average. Hoshis language skills also stick out but that is it.

The rest of the cast is rather average without special abilities or dramas I'd say.

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Uhura could speak several languages, as could Hoshi...Hell Sato doesn't even need a translator unit. Wesely was a boy geniues, Picard a well respected member of the Federation science/diplomatic community, Riker was one of the best tacticians in the Fleet, and Archers father designed the first warp 4.5 engine. There are no "average" people in Trek, if they were they wouldn't be in the Fleet.

Now I give you McHenry's little spacial awareness talent was way above the norm, but I don't think the rest of the crew is too over the top in back ground.

My problem with Shelby was she was, as Sgt. Harper put , " a murderin' officer." In BoBWs she needlessly put herself and Data in danger, constantly fluted the chain of command and was a general pain in the ass. Head off Borg tactical and she didn't think that with the assimilation of Picard all her plans were out the airlock. In NF at least she has morphed into a competent officer.

And Jellico was a "jerk" why? Because he had a different command style as Picard and disliked Calhoun for his repeated history of insubordination? If hadn't been for Adm. Necheyev Calhoun would have been out on his butt along time ago. Jellico was a competent COMBAT officer.

My problem with the series is it suffered from the same problem as the rest of the books...BORING! But, I still like the concept of telling the story of other ships and crews.

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Originally posted by Phantom
Uhura could speak several languages,

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Which gives her the ability to do oh, just about what anyone else can sitting at the communications station with a universal translator at their beck and call. And even if the UT was on the fritz, luckily everybody in the galaxy spoke english! ;)

I think the point was that even the above average characters in the shows had drawbacks to counter their "powers". Maybe they did in NF as well. Admittedly, I only read the first few books. I had a time getting past the mugato.

Maybe even more to the point, there are an inordinate amount of members in Calhoun's crew who could easily hold their own in an Avengers comic book. I think Trek should have characters who are exotic and special; some even with special powers. That's cool. It just seemed that David went a bit over the top.


Strictly Speaking

Ok, the Mugato was a little silly, but no more silly then the Horta Security guard from the comics. Everyone comes up with a bad idea now-and-again, the whole body of work shouldn't be flamed because of it.

Everyone here says that all the Crew in the NF books had almost "super" powers. Ok, I give you McHenry...Who else had a power that was so overwhelming for a Trek character? As I have said I only read the first few books, before the usual Trek boardom set in, so I might have missed the part where Calhoun went flying down the corridors dress in blue tights and wearing a red cape while he fought evil.:eek: ;)

The security guy was like a superstrong brick who could easily take some phaser fire before dropping. There was this weird catlike hermat character, both male and female (well, more female) who could give Nightcrawler a run for his money in agility (and had a naughty set of claws that were quite useful in the fisticuffs). Those two are Marvel characters right there. Of course, the helm guy had some powers that I later only heard about. Stopped reading at that time. And then there's the Mugato. Oh, and of course, Lefler had the proportionate strength and speed of Ashley Judd. Nothing to frown at, you know.

But at any rate, I'm not flaming the body of work. I'm saying David went a little bit over the top.


Strictly Speaking

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Originally posted by strict31
The security guy was like a superstrong brick who could easily take some phaser fire before dropping. There was this weird catlike hermat character, both male and female (well, more female) who could give Nightcrawler a run for his money in agility (and had a naughty set of claws that were quite useful in the fisticuffs). Those two are Marvel characters right there. Of course, the helm guy had some powers that I later only heard about. Stopped reading at that time. And then there's the Mugato. Oh, and of course, Lefler had the proportionate strength and speed of Ashley Judd. Nothing to frown at, you know.

But at any rate, I'm not flaming the body of work. I'm saying David went a little bit over the top.


Strictly Speaking

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I have already given that the Mugato was a silly idea and that McHenry was a little out of proportion. I never really saw a problem with Kebron, a high setting on a phaser could still do him in. Didn't know about the Hermats claws, but again I don't see a problem with a high agility and good h-to-h ability, we have seen worse on the TV. I don't understand your last point, Lefler is Ashley Judd?

Is there anything else? Or is it just one or two characterizations that seem "super"?

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Originally posted by Phantom
I don't understand your last point, Lefler is Ashley Judd?

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Lefler was played by Ashley Judd on TNG, Phantom.

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Is there anything else? Or is it just one or two characterizations that seem "super"?

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Don't forget Lefler's mom/Number One, who seems to be a Flint-style immortal...

BTW, I actually enjoyed the first few books, but they just got wierder after that. It might have been the talking Mugato that tipped the scales for me, too...

I like the NF books, despite their flaws. Not as much as I liked David's earlier books.

The NF books are a little over the top, and there is some silliness in them, but only as much as say 'A fistful of Datas', 'Spock's Brain' or 'Trouble with Tribbles'.

The McHenry character is interesting, and fits in with the ST universe - he is the grandson of Apollo and Carolyn Palamas from 'Who Mourns for Adonais'.

But the great appeal of David's books to me, is his ability to create the most wonderful comic moments.

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Originally posted by Phantom
And Jellico was a "jerk" why? Because he had a different command style as Picard and disliked Calhoun for his repeated history of insubordination? . . . Jellico was a competent COMBAT officer.

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Perhaps. . . but Jellico wasn't necessarily a good leader. His command style was abrasive and confrontational even when it didn't need to be. He didn't see people as people. He only saw them as tools to accomplish a mission. ("I don't have time to hand-hold the crew," he told Troi. "Get it done!" he snapped to Riker.)

Simply, Jellico didn't inspire loyalty at all and that is a necessary component (some might say the most valuable component) of leadership. (He strikes me as the kind of guy who might have been fragged by his own men were he a 2nd LT squad leader in Vietnam.)

If Jellico were in Picard's place during the events seen in "Insurrection," would the other crew have sacrificed their careers to assist him in freeing the Bak'u ? Probably not. Jellico had the know-how to do his job but his skills at personnel management and crew motivation were poor.

I see Jellico as a throw-back to the militaries of the 20th century; While this might be acceptable in an organization whose primary mission is defense and the implementation of foreign policy, it doesn't necessarily jibe with Starfleet's mission to explore and, in theory, make friends and allies of all life-forms and civilizations encountered.

Its amazing that Jellico made Admiral. Jellico is General Patton in a fleet of scientists and diplomats. And even Patton wouldn't have fared so well in Starfleet. . . .

I think I wanted to like NF but it just never happened. It read like bad fan fiction.

Peter David's chief problem from my perspective is that he's inconsistent. Some of his work (like the second of the Sir Apropos of Nothing series) is very good. Some is average, and some is bad. And you never know what you're going to get.

I suspect he's got all those "super" characters in there because he's not sure how to tell good stories about so-called "normal" people. But a lot of the characters in the series were either unusual in some way, or had superior abilities. In some cases, grafted onto them later (Dr. Bashir). That's because people generally don't want to read/see stories about people who could be them (or maybe it's because that's what science fiction writers believe -- read some of the early pulp stories and you will find them strewn with characters who are strong, calm, smart -- competent in most ways).

I've found the New Frontier to be as inconsistent as some of his other works; some books are better than others; some are drek. And within books, some concepts are just awful (the talking Mugato -- although, to be fair, he explained this last one in a recent novel).

The strengths of Calhoun, while derived from different sources, are the same strengths any captain would need -- and have. As characters go, I find him a reasonable model of a starship captain.

Jellico, as depicted by David, seems similar to his TNG depiction -- in "Chain of Command", he was an ass, provided chiefly as a foil against which the quiet strengths of Picard could be contrasted. Whether such an individual would rise to a command position in Starfleet -- or even the military of today -- is debatable. What's not debatable, in my view, is that the character started as a cartoon, and David hasn't done anything to change that. You could blame him for taking possession of the character and not showing more facets, or you could say he's depicting the character as that character was revealed to us. I don't think you could say he damaged the character.

Where he falters the most in my view, is his own characters. His "Brikar" is a superstrong more or less stone armored creature from a low-gravity world. Sure, Trek is full of rubber science, but that stretches the rubber well past the breaking point.

Others have already commented on the silliness of the talking Mugato, who (genetic experiments notwithstanding) should have been discarded stillborn as a poor idea.

Likewise, there was no need to craft for Robin Lefler a mother quite like hers. The character could have been made interesting enough without that. Sure, if there's one immortal it stands to fictional reason there could be others (in fact, in my game, there are). However, there was already enough going on in his universe.

McHenry is probably a reasonable character given his parentage. What eventually happened to him, and the story told around that, violated too much canon for my taste. While it's possible that Apollo was wrong in believing he's the last of his people, what David assumed about them just irritated me.

Overall, I'd have to say that I can pick up a New Frontier book from the library, and I'll read it if nothing better beckons from the book pile. But past the first four or so, I won't pay money for them any longer.

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Originally posted by Ezri's Toy
1) Perhaps. . . but Jellico wasn't necessarily a good leader. His command style was abrasive and confrontational even when it didn't need to be. He didn't see people as people. He only saw them as tools to accomplish a mission. ("I don't have time to hand-hold the crew," he told Troi. "Get it done!" he snapped to Riker.)

2)Simply, Jellico didn't inspire loyalty at all and that is a necessary component (some might say the most valuable component) of leadership. (He strikes me as the kind of guy who might have been fragged by his own men were he a 2nd LT squad leader in Vietnam.)

If Jellico were in Picard's place during the events seen in "Insurrection," would the other crew have sacrificed their careers to assist him in freeing the Bak'u ? Probably not. Jellico had the know-how to do his job but his skills at personnel management and crew motivation were poor.

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1) I think that what he meant was that it was about time Riker did his job, as XO he was responsible for releying his Captain's orders to the crew. Instead he disobeyed a simple order for adding a new shift to the rotation just because it wasn't the way they did things on the Enterprise. A capatins job is to run the ship, the XO is responsible for the crew. Jellico maybe didn't inspire much loyalty in the crew of the Enterprise, I chalk it up to not enough time, but Riker and Co. sure showed what kind of morons they could be too.

2) The crew of the Cairo probably would have, willingly, followed him into hell. Jellico was a warrior and successful warriors always have a certain "cult of personality" behind them. His crew was probably more rabidily loyal to him then Picard's are to Jean-Luc.

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Originally posted by Phantom
1) I think that what he meant was that it was about time Riker did his job, as XO . . .

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I could accept this explanation. . . except that he said it more than once in the same tone for different situations.

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Originally posted by Phantom
2) The crew of the Cairo probably would have, willingly, followed him into hell. Jellico was a warrior and successful warriors always have a certain "cult of personality" behind them. His crew was probably more rabidily loyal to him then Picard's are to Jean-Luc.

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And you base this assessment on . . . what ? The Cairo was mentioned only twice on Star Trek; Once on TNG for "Chain of Command" and once on DS9 when it was mentioned in passing that the ship was destroyed.

As for the NF novels, I've only read the first six. . . .

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Originally posted by Ezri's Toy
1) I could accept this explanation. . . except that he said it more than once in the same tone for different situations.

2) And you base this assessment on . . . what ? The Cairo was mentioned only twice on Star Trek; Once on TNG for "Chain of Command" and once on DS9 when it was mentioned in passing that the ship was destroyed.

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1) See my comment on the crew of the Enterprise acting like morons. If they had put half the energy they put into resisting Jellico's changes and put it into their mission, they would have been alot better off. Personally if I were Jellico, Riker wouldn't have seen his pips again after I relieved him of his post. And I liked Riker as a character.

2) I base it off all the study I have done of real world officers, Gen.'s Bradly, Patton, Rommel, Roberts, etc. Particularly Patton, his troops disliked him from time to time, but by God they knew when they were fighting for him they were going to win. Jellico is in this same vein of officer, I simply added to the story given we don't have actual canon info on the Cairo and it's crew.

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Originally posted by Phantom
I have already given that the Mugato was a silly idea and that McHenry was a little out of proportion. I never really saw a problem with Kebron, a high setting on a phaser could still do him in. Didn't know about the Hermats claws, but again I don't see a problem with a high agility and good h-to-h ability, we have seen worse on the TV. I don't understand your last point, Lefler is Ashley Judd?

Is there anything else? Or is it just one or two characterizations that seem "super"?

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Man, I didn't even know that McHenrywas the grandson of a being that was LIKE UNTO A GOD or anything. That doesn't seem more than a little super to you? And Lefler's mom...I didn't even know she was like Flint. These things merely add to the "super", not detract from it or, as your final question infers, minimalizes the "super."

The hermat thingee was very feral in a fight as I recall. Almost as impressive as the talking ape. I don't recall ever seeing any character quite like her in Trek. Perhaps you could refresh my memory. Admittedly, I probably am forgetting something, so if you have an example of a character in the shows who has matched or surpassed this character's feral kitten savagery and slashing claws, please tell me.

And you're minimizing the brick guy a bit, I think. Being able to take a phaser on a low to medium setting and walk it off is a significant ability that most Starfleet personnel simply don't seem to be born with. When we do see it happen, it's always meant to be significant. Almost as if they keep their phaser defaulted to stun and low settings because they expect those settings to do the trick.

It wasn't the fact that they are super. As I've already said, I don't mind super in Trek. But there were just so many of them.


Strictly Speaking

Ok, now I know how some of the other people I have argued with in the past feel.:) I have already, repeated said that I agree the Mugato was silly, McHenry's background somewhat over the top, and Lefler's mom dosen't really factor in as, to my knowledge, she is a background character (ie Q) and Robin doesn't have any special abilities from her mother. Ok, great. A given...I take your point. Now, let's see;

1 silly idea.
1 somewhat powerful main character.
1 powerful NPC, if you will.
1Hermat with roughly equivalant in fighting ability and agility as I remember the Caitians (Regulans) being.
1 guy that is immune to lower level phaser settings, not a big deal as that is what the power setting switch is for.

Equals;
1 Guy who knows where he is spatially. Did they add any really big super powers to McHenry.
1 Guy immune to phasers on low settings.
1 Hermat who is what the equivalent of...oh, I don't know...hmmm, Worf/Odo/Garak in h-to-h.

We're not exactly talking the Justice League here are we? I've seen more powerful characters in some of the games I've run, and at lower levels.

Your Honours do we have any further evidence? Or does the prosecution wish to continue beating me about the head with the same facts?:D

Note: that was a joke.:)

Man, I just wanna say that this thread has turned into comedy gold. :D

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Originally posted by Phantom
Ok, now I know how some of the other people I have argued with in the past feel.:) I have already, repeated said that I agree the Mugato was silly, McHenry's background somewhat over the top, and Lefler's mom dosen't really factor in as, to my knowledge, she is a background character (ie Q) and Robin doesn't have any special abilities from her mother. Ok, great. A given...I take your point. Now, let's see;

1 silly idea.
1 somewhat powerful main character.
1 powerful NPC, if you will.
1Hermat with roughly equivalant in fighting ability and agility as I remember the Caitians (Regulans) being.
1 guy that is immune to lower level phaser settings, not a big deal as that is what the power setting switch is for.

Equals;
1 Guy who knows where he is spatially. Did they add any really big super powers to McHenry.
1 Guy immune to phasers on low settings.
1 Hermat who is what the equivalent of...oh, I don't know...hmmm, Worf/Odo/Garak in h-to-h.

We're not exactly talking the Justice League here are we? I've seen more powerful characters in some of the games I've run, and at lower levels.

Your Honours do we have any further evidence? Or does the prosecution wish to continue beating me about the head with the same facts?:D

Note: that was a joke.:)

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Okay. The problem here is not that I'm trying to beat you over the head with anything. That would be most impolite! My point, by reiterating what I have already said, is that I think you're minimalizing the superness of the characters that have already been mentioned. Dismissing them as common to the Trek universe. I never read any of the books where McHenry's powers were realized; in the ones I read, he was always just a lazy guy with his feet up on the helm station. So, to be honest, I didn't care one way or the other about him, as relates to the discussion. Then, someone mentioned he was the grandson of Apollo. I don't think his spatial awareness powers (or whatever they are) sound too bad. It's crazy, sure. But on the whole, no crazier than a sexy Borg super-hottie, or a geneticially enhanced CMO with the super ability to shoot darts with perfect accuracy.

As for the hermie, I do think her fighting skills were a bit more than on par with Worf or Garak. maybe she was on par with Odo, admittedly, because he can do that whole terminator 2 liquid thing. Worf was just a guy with some very good, solid training. The fact that he was a klingon warrior meant nothing because even Picard can whup the average Klingon in h-t-h. Same with garak, I reckon. He was just a well trained...er...tailor. Neither Klingons nor Cardies are so much stronger than humans that a guy like Picard can't whup them with some Kirk-fu-fighting. Worf is just a good fighter, plain and simple. He's every bit as vulnerable to a punch to the gut, a phaser blast a wrist lock or a good old fashioned kick to the jimmy. He's an awesome fighter. And he has Klingon strength. That strength was never shown as a factor, however. When they needed super strength, they turned to Data. Odo, of course, was super. No two ways about it. Data was super, again, no two ways about it, and to a degree, Seven of Nine was as well (for toher reasons...heh). Wes, Deanna and geordi are roughly on the same scale as Mchenry in "superness." They have abilities or qualities that others don't. The difference is that their origins are really rather normal. McHenry's obviously are not. having a "god" as your granddad opens up a lot of possibilities.

And of, course, I mentioned Lefler's mom, merely out of suprise, because I had assumed Lefler was as normal as they come. having an immortal for a mom also opens up things. It's certainly not exactly normal, is it?

On each of the shows, we have a majority of the main cast being shown as essentially normal. They are all heroes, no doubt, so they strive beyond the achiements of contemporaries, but that's to be expected in a show about heroic characters. And they have either a limited share of super-types, or those super types are balanced out well. Deanna's telepathy, more than half the time basically just served to either reaffirm Picard's impressions of a situation, or occluded and hindered things. Wes was smart, but his inexperience made him take second or third place to geordi and Data. And his traveller abilities were rarely seen or used. And when they were used, they were highly problematic. Balance.

The NF crew seems to have an inordinate amount of super-types, who are poorly balanced. This is fine for the Avengers. or the Hulk. Or the X-Men. But for Star trek, it's over the top. It's like they took all the supers from all of the shows and stuffed them into the same ship.

Of course, this is just my opinion. When I read the books, that was my impression, but it was interesting to read this thread and see so many comments that mirrored what I was thinking when I read the stories. I hope you don't think that I'm bashing you simply because I am responding to your comments on this matter. My initial intent when I first responded to you was to try and elucidate on the points brought up by other posters about the super-ness of the characters. My contention is that "super" is not out of place in Trek. Just that, in NF, it is overdone.

With that said, let me also state that I don't have any problem with you disagreeing with me. It's like Dalton said, "Opinions vary..." ;)


Strictly Speaking

Kirk-fu fighting. I like that.:D

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Originally posted by strict31
Deanna's telepathy, more than half the time basically just served to either reaffirm Picard's impressions of a situation, or occluded and hindered things. Wes was smart, but his inexperience made him take second or third place to geordi and Data. And his traveller abilities were rarely seen or used. And when they were used, they were highly problematic. Balance.

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Don't forget her new feat (using CODA) "Targeting by Ouija Board." :rolleyes:

As you say opinions vary.

"Ok, now I know how some of the other people I have argued with in the past feel. " - Phantom


I made Don's sig! Hey, can he do that?!:D :cool:

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Originally posted by Phantom
Kirk-fu fighting. I like that.:D




Don't forget her new feat (using CODA) "Targeting by Ouija Board." :rolleyes:

As you say opinions vary.

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You have to wonder what Worf was thinking through that whole scene... "I can't believe I slept with this nutcase..."

And Michael Dorn was also probably thinking, "Jesus H! I'm the guy playing the weapons officer, can't they just let me have this one damned scene?" :D


Strictly Speaking

Note: This is mostly a tongue-in-cheek post, so don’t take it too seriously. :)

I think the point that may or not have been made thus far is that in all the other Trek series the characters – save perhaps one per series – were believable. (Yup, strict31 just made that point.) :D

While Riker was good-looking, charismatic, and a somewhat skilled tactician, he was essentially a normal guy. (A lot like myself, sans the rugged good looks. ;) )

Same with Picard. Beverly Crusher. Ensign Kim. Captain Janeway. Paris.

I’ll grant we have notables, but some were really more color than anything. Geordi’s “disability” added flavor and character depth. Wesley being a savant. Kirk being, well, Kirk.

Spock. Data. Odo. Seven of Nine. Those were the real standouts.

The real annoying thing about New Frontier characters is what I call the “Lucas Effect,” or “gosh, look how clever I am foreshadowing crap that already happened.” :rolleyes:

Talking mogatu? (“Look how clever I am, I worked in a TOS creature!”)
Horta in Starfleet (“Look, I did it again!”)
McHenry related to a god? (“I took a TOS episode and ran with it!”)
Lefler's mom? (“Look, another TOS reference! Go me!”)
Shelby (“Another TNG reference! It’s ‘Star Trek Castaways’!”)
Jellico (“I don’t have any original character ideas at all!”)
Brooding super-Calhoun? (“He’s hot like Riker, bad-ass like Kirk, and brooding like Sisko! I rock!”)
The Great Bird of the Galaxy? (I won’t even try it was so silly… :D )

Then we get a walking brick that can shrug off phaser shots and a hermit that goes around humping just about every other character.

It’s just that, to me, it was just waaaay too much of being beaten over the head with Trek references at every corner. I knew I was in trouble in the very first book when we’re introduced to Calhoun. There’s a throwaway line by Picard (?) about how he (Calhoun) was, or could have been, “the best there ever was.” Right there, before we’ve done anything, David anointed Calhoun above Kirk and everyone else. It was pretty hard taking anything serious after that point.

It was like freakin' Snake Plisken in a Starfleet uniform...

(Then talking bunny rabbits started appearing on the bridge. Remember that one?)

[Edit] Fixed a flub.

Now that was humour.

Bravo!

"Jellico (“I don’t have any original character ideas at all!”)"
This was my favourite.
:D

That is exactly the main problem I had with these novels. All of the characters are "unbelievable" where in other series most of the characters could have existed in real life that way.
Of course Riker was skilled - but he was the career guy - he sacrificed a lot for it. Picard is the same. The sacrifices he made are very well depictd in ST VII, I think.

Additionally these cameo appearances of several characters was too much as well I think. I liked the idea of a reappering Shelby but with all the others it was way too much, especially since all of those were former Enterprise Crew members, like Lefler that Doctor Selar (?), Shelby, Jellico, you name it.

And third I tihnk there are several canon mistakes. Since it is quite a while since I read the books, I do not remember them.

Quote:

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Talking mogatu? (“Look how clever I am, I worked in a TOS creature!”)
Horta in Starfleet (“Look, I did it again!”)
McHenry related to a god? (“I took a TOS episode and ran with it!”)
Lefler's mom? (“Look, another TOS reference! Go me!”)
Shelby (“Another TNG reference! It’s ‘Star Trek Castaways’!”)
Jellico (“I don’t have any original character ideas at all!”)
Brooding super-Calhoun? (“He’s hot like Riker, bad-ass like Kirk, and brooding like Sisko! I rock!”)
The Great Bird of the Galaxy? (I won’t even try it was so silly… :D )


It’s just that, to me, it was just waaaay too much of being beaten over the head with Trek references at every corner. I knew I was in trouble in the very first book when we’re introduced to Calhoun. There’s a throwaway line by Picard (?) about how he (Calhoun) was, or could have been, “the best there ever was.” Right there, before we’ve done anything, David anointed Calhoun above Kirk and everyone else. It was pretty hard taking anything serious after that point.

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And again I say unto you: Bad fan fiction

Quote:

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It was like freakin' Snake Plisken in a Starfleet uniform...

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LOL!


PS: "I thought you were dead"

Quote:

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Originally posted by Evan van Eyk
Additionally these cameo appearances of several characters was too much as well I think. I liked the idea of a reappering Shelby but with all the others it was way too much, especially since all of those were former Enterprise Crew members, like Lefler that Doctor Selar (?), Shelby, Jellico, you name it.

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Awwwa crap, I totally forgot about Selar! Okay, here we go:

[Addendum to list]
Dr. Selar ("Look, another TNG reference! I'z gotz the MADZ 5K!LLZ!")

I swear, I was waiting for freakin' Bobba Fett to appear in the books at one point. :D ("I will make every TNG supporting cast member appear at some point in my novels and utterly destroy their characterizations, thus ruining any enjoyment that you may have had for them.")

Hey, did Ensign Ro ever show up? ;)