Do we even need Decipher anymore?

Reflecting upon the rate of new material being released, the state of the Trek-rpg net site (other than this forum), and the condition of the Decipher boards, it is obvious that Decipher has abandoned the ST RPG line.

We will never see the Worlds, Mirror Universe, or the Klingon sourcebooks. Posting new adventures on the Decipher boards is a transparent attempt to keep ST alive just enough to move out their remaining stockpile of Core and sourcebooks to the distributors before officially pulling the plug.

Lately, I have been reading a lot of the netbooks available here and have come to the conclusion that we have some amazingly talented people here. I especially loved the Borg vs. Dominion book.

So, I was thinking that if Decipher won't give us the material we want, we should cut out the middleman and make our own netbooks covering the topics we are dying for, such as Worlds, Klingons, and Mirror Universe.

If Decipher won't support ST- RPG, we can do it without them.
They are more interested in their more profitable CCG lines anyway, and haven't put out any material to make the RPG line a profit earner for them, so what would it hurt to cut them out of the loop?

I'm tired of waiting and getting nothing but empty promises, excuses, and apathy from Decipher. How about you?

Cigarman :D

I will keep waiting...

I follow another game line call Mutants and Masterminds (from Green Ronin) and two future supplements are late for several months, but one of them finally has arrived... so I have learnt that patience is not an easy thing but sometimes is necessary.

I follow M&M as well.

There is a big difference between the two companies. Green Ronin regularly provides updates on the status of their products in their forum, actually replies when you write to them, and provides real answers to your questions. Decipher does not.

Green Ronin is interested in the continual success of the M&M RPG line. Decipher couldn't care less about STRPG. All they care about is their vastly more profitable CCG lines. Can't blame them. It's simple economics. Continued profit equals continued existance for the company, so they focus on their main income generators, CCGs. They just don't have the time to support RPG lines.

If they had any concern whatsoever for the fans of STRPG, they would sign over the rights of the RPG line to a company who is actually interested in supporting it.

It all boils down to this:

Green Ronin deserves my patience, Decipher does not.

Cigarman

Nope, no reason to wait on Decipher. If you have a burning desire to write stuff for the game, do so! Gandalf of Borg is putting together a regular webzine for the game (much like his Hall of Fire zine for the LOTR RPG) and is always open to new content.

I'm almost done laying out the first issue, but there will be as many more issues as people make stuff to print. :)

The answer is probably no, but I'll ask anyway...

One of the upcoming vaporwa... erm, Decipher products I was most interested in was the Mirror Universe book.

Will anybody be working on stuff to replace what Decipher has lost us? I mean, now that it's paid for, I half-expect everything that people worked on for Decipher to be considered forbidden territory by their lawyers/nondisclosure crap, even if none of it ever makes it to the printed or online page.

I mean, it would really rather suck if the details of the Klingons, the Mirror Universe, the Worlds, and all that were to be forever denied us just because Decipher's (expletive deleted)s couldn't be bothered to bring the info out of limbo.

Or maybe I just don't understand how this sort of thing works.

I'd like to offer my congratulations to Cigarman (and what's the story behind that moniker, anyway?:) ): this is certainly a very worthwhile topic for these boards, and it's great to see someone coming right out and stating what - inevitably, very likely - will need to be done if the game in its current incarnation is to survive.

It is worth noting, however, that for every fan-created Netbook, there have been several others that have ended up stillborn. The Cardassian sourcebook for Icon that was put together here was a superb piece of work. However, there was also a project to replace the lost LUGTrek Blood and Honor and a Trill sourcebook that ended fizzling out. I don't know what sort of difficulties, if any, that the Cardassian group faced, but the main source of contention behind the Klingon work, as I understand it, was the ubiquitous shadow of personality conflicts. This, I think, is almost invariably what ends up quashing what would otherwise be a fine idea.

If there are to be Coda-based works produced through the auspices of this forum and/or site - and I'm writing as someone whose interest in DecipherTrek is periforal - I would think that some sort of contract between the parties would need to be hammered out in order to ensure that everyone, a) does their fair share and b) does what they promised to do, in the manner they promised to do it. Handshake agreements are the best-possible scenario, but they have an unfortunate tendency to fall apart when egos start clashing, especially when people get into the "It's a shoe/No, it's a sandle" realm of arguments. A project head, whose authority on matters is the final and binding word, would also, I think, be of benefit.

That's it for my immediate thoughts; I don't know whether any of these ideas have been tried before and found to be of some value, or full of something warm and brown. :)

BTW, Ineti, looking forward big-time to seeing the first issue of that fanzine. :)

Nice to see some interest and a positive attitude.

Need more of that. Keep the spirit! :)

"It's a sandal/ It's a shoe"

I am more a "Follow the gourd" kinda guy! :D

I dont think that we really need Decipher. What we really need is for people to be able to collaborate on any Netbooks that are made, and keep creative differences to a minimum. People can and should be able to reach a compromise on almost everything IMHO.

I loved the Cardassian sourcebook, and several of the others are excellent too. If anyone wants to do more Netbooks, and wants help/ another willing body to help out, gimme a shout.

Cheers

Tas

Quote:

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Originally posted by D.S.McBride

It is worth noting, however, that for every fan-created Netbook, there have been several others that have ended up stillborn. The Cardassian sourcebook for Icon that was put together here was a superb piece of work. However, there was also a project to replace the lost LUGTrek Blood and Honor and a Trill sourcebook that ended fizzling out. I don't know what sort of difficulties, if any, that the Cardassian group faced, but the main source of contention behind the Klingon work, as I understand it, was the ubiquitous shadow of personality conflicts.

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The main problem faced by the Cardassian book was people dropping out. Fortunately there were a couple of folks (including me) willing to take up the slack. But it was the dedication and perseverance of Anomaly, who organised the whole thing, wrote a big chunk of the rules for book 2, and layed it all out, that got the thing completed.

There was a Starfleet Operations type sourcebook too. It never got off the ground because they couldn't agree on whether there were Starfleet marines or not.

KillerWhale's ESO

Wow talk about a huge team effort! Beautiful pictures, great layout, and a labor of love. It's in the style of LUG but it's fantastic source of info. If you want to know if we can (might have to) survive without Decipher (get this Decipher* we DO NOT WANT TO BUT IF WE MUST) check out the ESO from KillerWhale and all who supported him. Nuff said.

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Not to hijack your thread but I'm wondering - isn't the website done unofficially?

First off, as someone who contributed art to the Cardassian netbook, much thanks for all the kudos.

Second off, I wholeheartedly agree that the survival of this game need not depend on the company that's showing strong signs of not even trying to keep its fanbase informed regarding the game's future. No dissing intended to Doug Burke or anyone else Decipher-employed here, but as long as we've kept Icon Trek going, we'll do the same for Coda Trek as well.

That out of the way, some ideas I'm throwing out for netbooks for anyone interested in making them (excluding the big three [Klingons, Mirror, Worlds])...

--Series SBs (including Enterprise, in case Don is unable to bring his here, and heck, throw some in for the comics, animated series, and novels if you want)
--Adventure collections/campaign books
--A "weapons locker" type book of Trek weaponry
--"The Galaxy," a guide to space, spatial anomalies, nebulas, etc.
--"Who's Who," a collection of character write-ups for all the movers and shakers in the Trek series

--mac

Quote:

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Originally posted by D.S.McBride
"It's a shoe/No, it's a sandle" realm of arguments.

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It was a boot. :p

Quote:

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Originally posted by Mac417
That out of the way, some ideas I'm throwing out for netbooks for anyone interested in making them (excluding the big three [Klingons, Mirror, Worlds])...

--Series SBs (including Enterprise, in case Don is unable to bring his here, and heck, throw some in for the comics, animated series, and novels if you want)
--Adventure collections/campaign books
--A "weapons locker" type book of Trek weaponry
--"The Galaxy," a guide to space, spatial anomalies, nebulas, etc.
--"Who's Who," a collection of character write-ups for all the movers and shakers in the Trek series

--mac

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I'm actually working on an outline for an ENT sourcebook or mini-sourcebook (just stats only). If anyone is interested in helping , especially with layout, let me know.

Which Decipher books actually are available now? Just the Players and Narrators guides? Those are the only two I have seen in the stores.

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Originally posted by neurozombie
Which Decipher books actually are available now? Just the Players and Narrators guides? Those are the only two I have seen in the stores.

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PG
NG
Starfleet Operations Manual
Starships
Creatures
Aliens

and the Narrator's screen are all currently available.

Quote:

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Originally posted by neurozombie
Which Decipher books actually are available now? Just the Players and Narrators guides? Those are the only two I have seen in the stores.

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Also available are the Narrator's Screen, the Starfleet Operations Manual, the Aliens book, the Starships book, and the Creatures book.

--mac

EDIT: Oops. :D

Not to sound like the town Doomcrier, but if - hypothetically, Ms Shaw - anyone out there was interested in getting the DecipherTrek books, I'd make it a point of doing so with all reasonable speed. A couple of posters on this site have confirmed that their gaming stores have begun shutting the gates on Decipher's RPG material, in anticipation of the lines being abandoned, and in my own area, some of the FLGSs have begun turning off the faucets as well.

Doubtless the current books - much like LUGTrek - will be available on-line for some time to come, but if anyone wants to avoid the hassle of on-line bidding, shipping and handling costs, etc., I'd pick 'em up before the official hammer from Decipher comes down.

Quote:

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Originally posted by D.S.McBride
Doubtless the current books - much like LUGTrek - will be available on-line for some time to come, but if anyone wants to avoid the hassle of on-line bidding, shipping and handling costs, etc., I'd pick 'em up before the official hammer from Decipher comes down.

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Or worse, pulped.

I'm just sayin...

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Originally posted by Don Mappin
Or worse, pulped.

I'm just sayin...

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Don: You're kidding. Your feeling on the situation is that it's verging on being that bad?

If so, maybe we should start lobbing the e-mails, ICQs and so ons back and forth, and get a chain of command in order so that we can start producing our own works. If the princes of this world have failed us, then it's time to create a think tank (virtual as it may be) and start forging our own world.

Here's a question...

...why use Decipher at all? Do we really want to force people who use these proposed Netbooks to rely on material from a company that may be about to dump the entire line? Moreover, even if it stays afloat, do we want to pour money into their coffers?

I don't.

Why not reboot the entire thing, using a system from a strong company? Hero System springs to mind (only because I dislike both GURPS and *shudder* d20).

Edited to add: Another advantage of using an existing system -- when Decipher loses the RPG license, some enterprising folks might snap it up. If that's the case, they could take the Netbooks, license the gaming system they're based on, and just publish the things. :)

This topic makes Capt. Anderson depressed. :( He enjoyed the CODA system so very much and he feels that a topic thread needs to be started and anyone who wishes to say something positive about Deciphers RPG line could post, then forward that copy of the thread to Decipher.

I agree totally with many of you- I cannot understand why we cannot do this. With the talent here I think that it can be done.

I have the link to the Lost Books of Star Trek- it is below

http://www.well.com/user/sjroby/lostbooks.html

And the sheer work NOT DONE from LUG is amazing - I would literally PAY any PRICE for the Romulan book and the Bajoran ones as well- I just got the Way of D'era and it is fabulous.

I truly belive that those type of books with that sense of detail can be written by us.

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Originally posted by GenesisWeapon

Why not reboot the entire thing, using a system from a strong company? Hero System springs to mind (only because I dislike both GURPS and *shudder* d20).

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Only if Steve Long is interested in publishing licensed products based on media entertainment properties. I'm trying to recall in the long history of Hero Game, have they ever published licensed products?

For some of us, we're fans of previous Trek-based rules system. I myself still play LUGTrek whenever I can.

Oh, and just to get your knickers in a knot, I've been trying to come up with a way to make a d20 version of Trek. Of course, if I do decide to distribute it, I have to make it a parody (fall under Fair Use, kinda like Hackmaster) sans the Paramount-owned trademarks.

Quote:

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Edited to add: Another advantage of using an existing system -- when Decipher loses the RPG license, some enterprising folks might snap it up. If that's the case, they could take the Netbooks, license the gaming system they're based on, and just publish the things. :)

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That assumes Decipher will relinquish copyright of their CODA rules system for others to use. Or WotC will relinquish copyright of the acquired ICON rules system.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Capt. Anderson
This topic makes Capt. Anderson depressed. :( He enjoyed the CODA system so very much and he feels that a topic thread needs to be started and anyone who wishes to say something positive about Deciphers RPG line could post, then forward that copy of the thread to Decipher.

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I gotta go with the Captain here, guys. I'm so down for picking up the ball and running with it if Decipher drops the other shoe, but until they do, shouldn't we show our support for the game and the system, since that's what we're doing anyway?

--mac

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Originally posted by REG
Only if Steve Long is interested in publishing licensed products based on media entertainment properties. I'm trying to recall in the long history of Hero Game, have they ever published licensed products?

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Nope. However, who says that Hero Games has to publish it? They're licensing the system out.

Quote:

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That assumes Decipher will relinquish copyright of their CODA rules system for others to use. Or WotC will relinquish copyright of the acquired ICON rules system.

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No, it doesn't. What I'm suggesting is to dump both Decipher and LUG, since they'd represent just the kind of legal morass you're talking about. License another system, acquire the Trek license, and publish PDFs.

Sorry, but I have no sympathy for Decipher, whatsoever. As a gamer, I'm tired of standing on the gallows waiting for either the trapdoor to drop or a call from the Governer.

It is obvious that the only reason that Decipher hasn't officially dropped the ax is that they don't want to be stuck with a warehouse full of product. As long as they pretend the line is still alive, they can move their stuff to distributors. I'm not bashing them. It makes business sence. Profit is profit and they are in the business to make money. It just seems that they have forgoten where that money really comes from, consumers like us.

It is time to forget about Decipher and focus on supporting STRPG, no matter what the system.

As for which system(s) to put in the Netbooks, (ICON, CODA, D20, Hero, etc.) why not make the books system generic with addendums on the various systems for specific game mechanic information? That way, they are useful to the majority of players and GMs, regardless of system preference.

As a matter of fact, why repeat efforts already made? We have a lot of perfectly good LUGTrek material already published that could use CODA (and other system) addendum. Perhaps we should start there?

Decipher has dropped the ball, so let's grab it and run for a touchdown.

Cigarman

PS: As to the question of where my name, Cigarman, came from? I hate to disapoint any of you, but it is DEFINITELY NOT a Clinton reference. ;) I just happen to like smoking cigars while cruising the net. :D

PSS: In which order of subject should we start our efforts. Personally, I'd like to see Mirror Universe (DS9 and Dark Mirror universes) and Klingons first. Opinions?

In all honesty, Decipher has released all that we need for a complete Star Trek role playing experience, but i am interested in Klingon sourcebook and perhaps the Solider and Diplomat sourcbook, as well as the Mirror Sourcebook.

If by any stretch of the imagination, Decipher decides to drop the liscense, I don' t think I 'll be purchasing another Trek Rpg with a different set of rules. I do believe the Coda system is a robust engine and the one thing that prevented me from going into LUG is that Coda Trek is era-agnostic. Not to mention the supposed decline of interest in Trek will make anyone think twice of carrying the liscence or top the quality that the developers did with Coda. But what do i know ..

my two cents :D

Quote:

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Originally posted by GenesisWeapon

Nope. However, who says that Hero Games has to publish it? They're licensing the system out.

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That's news to me. I mean other than Gold Rush Games that did San Angelo 1.5 and Dragon's Gate, who are acquiring the license to use Hero System?

Quote:

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No, it doesn't. What I'm suggesting is to dump both Decipher and LUG, since they'd represent just the kind of legal morass you're talking about. License another system, acquire the Trek license, and publish PDFs.

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Whoa. Such animosity.

I dunno. If it's PDF. I may not purchase it. Don't have a plastic.

As for Yet Another New System with Yet Another New Company, some current gamers will be too pissed to buy yet another Star Trek game, while others are content with what we have (FASA, Icon, and CODA rulesets). And yet there are others that using different rules system for the Star Trek universe (for their own personal use -- I know of one group that are already using Hero System).

Well, I just got an e-mail from an e-store that's very good about letting me know about pre-orders and here's what he had to say about my ST pre-orders,

"At this point, Decipher has made no plans for release of any further Star Trek or Lord of the Rings RPG products. Every projected release date has been missed, and we can not get any answers as to when, or if, these products will ever be released.



You have an open pre-order for one of these products. We are canceling all pre-orders until a release date and pricing information is confirmed. Once we have confirmation, we will email everyone who placed an order for the product and give you a chance to re-order.



I am sorry that we have not been able to provide you with more information. We have been kept in the dark as well."

I hope this isn't the end and they don't go out like a whimper in the night but in a blaze of glory! Please Decipher say it isn't so!

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:(

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Originally posted by GenesisWeapon
..., acquire the Trek license, ...

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:eek:

Okay, you take care of that and I'll pay the drinks. :rolleyes:

Seriously, how do you think we could get that much money. Besides, as long as we don't charge anything for our products, there is no need to purchase the license. Though Paramount might see things a little bit different.
Do you think there is any possibility of Decipher relinquishing their rights on the CODA system, assuming they don't sell them together with their Trek and LOTR RPG rights?
Which brings up another question? How similar can two RPG systems be before anyone can sue the other party for copyright violation? After all, just about any possible dice mechanic has been used before.

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Originally posted by 7 of 11
Well, I just got an e-mail from an e-store that's very good about letting me know about pre-orders...

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It sounds like your e-store is more on the ball with regard to customer support than Decipher would ever dream of being, 7...if we'd been given even that much information on what the current standing is, we wouldn't be in the conundrum we are today. Doug continues to do his best for us, but he's fettered by an administration/management that, as far as we can tell, has simply given up.

With regard to going out with bangs-not-whimpers, the handwriting's been on the wall for quite a while. As Don indicated some time ago, every day that Decipher doesn't release - or at least announce a solid date for the release - of their works makes it that much more unlikely that we'll ever see them at all.

The ex-LUG/Decipher writers and designers have stated it; Decipher's subsequent press-releases on this year's plans have confirmed it; it was true then, and it's true now: Decipher doesn't care. They're not doing this out of animosity, pique, revenge or even the sadistic pleasure of pulling the wings off flies. They just don't care. This isn't necessarily a worst-case scenario - as Cigarman wrote when he started this thread, the ball's in our court, we have the technology, and the will. What remains is for us to get our butts organized and see if we can become professional enough to take on a task and see it through to completion. :)

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Originally posted by D.S.McBride
What remains is for us to get our butts organized and see if we can become professional enough to take on a task and see it through to completion. :)

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That's it, really. I don't think Decipher or any other company is ever going to release anything with the Coda system ever again. It falls to the fans to keep the system and games alive.

This product line is cursed.

Hi,

The most positive attitude that I know of is action. :D

So what if we just create a list of all netbooks available with links to support fan created books? A sticky just like the erratas to give so publicity to the authors.

It may be because I'm a newbie here, but I had difficulties to find a link to Killerwhalle's ESO... But with a master list it would be easy to find a book or announce a new netbook. I can help to create it... Just an idea.

Quote:

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Originally posted by D.S.McBride
It sounds like your e-store is more on the ball with regard to customer support than Decipher would ever dream of being, 7...if we'd been given even that much information on what the current standing is, we wouldn't be in the conundrum we are today. Doug continues to do his best for us, but he's fettered by an administration/management that, as far as we can tell, has simply given up.

With regard to going out with bangs-not-whimpers, the handwriting's been on the wall for quite a while. As Don indicated some time ago, every day that Decipher doesn't release - or at least announce a solid date for the release - of their works makes it that much more unlikely that we'll ever see them at all.

The ex-LUG/Decipher writers and designers have stated it; Decipher's subsequent press-releases on this year's plans have confirmed it; it was true then, and it's true now: Decipher doesn't care. They're not doing this out of animosity, pique, revenge or even the sadistic pleasure of pulling the wings off flies. They just don't care. This isn't necessarily a worst-case scenario - as Cigarman wrote when he started this thread, the ball's in our court, we have the technology, and the will. What remains is for us to get our butts organized and see if we can become professional enough to take on a task and see it through to completion. :)

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I guess if they won't talk to the people who WANT to sell the products to the people who WANT to buy them then *sigh* all is lost? I like the high energy ideas being trhown around here and I wonder who will catch it and run with it? There's a wealth of talent here, and I won't be surprised if this site runs with it. Once again if you've seen KillerWhale's ESO then nuff said. We can do it.

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Yea, we can do it -- we also can't charge for it.

I love Star Trek as much (if not more) than the next guy. The reality is though, I can only write so many words free of charge. The prospect of writing and publishing material, free of charge, only goes so far. Then we start running into the QA level of it all with no one really in charge.

Plus (there's more?) you still have to keep it all somewhat underneath the radar; remember this is someone else's intellectual property (Viacom). It is by their grace that sites like this are allowed to exist at all. The next company to get the Trek license might not like having free competition. (Remember what happened with LUG and the original LUGTrek Netbook?)

Acquire the Trek license? Okay, whose got mid- to high-five figures burning a hole in their pocket at the moment and a lawyer to negotiate the contract? Sure, I'd sell my car and give it a try but I don't want to run a publishing company. :)

Now, before anyone accuses me of being a downer and a kill-joy, I'm just bringing these topics up. Sometimes, in our enthusiasm, these issues are glossed over or ignored. There are some very really legal restrictions when dealing with someone else's intellectual property. I'm not saying these issues can't be overcome (this site has been running since 1998ish) but you need to be aware of them. That's why I'd be excited to keep this site running, do something to help defray the costs, and provide some outlet to "publish" these materials.

For my part, I need to see what happens with Decipher and the Trek license first; their decision will likely impact my own. Plus I'm still having conversations with them. (Well, trying at least.) :)

The waiting is the hard part. I just wish they could come back with an answer. Kinda like with bandage over a week-old wound, just get it over with quickly even though there will be initial pain.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Don Mappin
I love Star Trek as much (if not more) than the next guy. The reality is though, I can only write so many words free of charge. The prospect of writing and publishing material, free of charge, only goes so far. Then we start running into the QA level of it all with no one really in charge.
Plus (there's more?) you still have to keep it all somewhat underneath the radar; remember this is someone else's intellectual property (Viacom). It is by their grace that sites like this are allowed to exist at all. The next company to get the Trek license might not like having free competition. (Remember what happened with LUG and the original LUGTrek Netbook?)

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Words of wisdom from someone who's been there (and still is, in the sense that he's carrying on a conversation with those Decipherian spirits in the Bajoran Wormhole :) )

As my sensei told us many times - and I tell my own students now - "Better to restrain the raging tiger than awaken the sleeping ox." I'd rather see too much enthusiasm than too little for both this site and these incipient projects, but at the same time we have to always keep in mind that, ultimately, we're playing in someone else's sandbox here. Also, the enegy petering out and the attrition factor setting in once the realization that - by golly - this is real work when you get down to it, has to be accounted for.

This, for me, is where the issue of the professionalism gets brought in. The love is there to get you over the rough spots, both in romance and business. The professionalism gives you the machinery to make sure that those spots are smoothed over effectively and without causing more problems than are solved.

Have I got some spare time on my hands currently? Yes. Would I be willing to set up/run/participate in some Icon - and Coda, yeah, there, I said it - projects that catch my fancy? Yes again. Does it really matter if I get paid or not? It'd be damned nice, that's for sure, but it wouldn't be the first time I've done it for free either. But all of the real-world issues are going to be have to be dealt with, step-by-step and in boring old bureaucratic fashion, before we can touch the stars.

I'm putting my name in. I'm willing to make the leap of faith and support the cause - writing, layout, art, what have you. But let's make sure that what we're doing is, a) legal, and b) going to get finished in pretty much the same way it got started, before we start getting all hot and bothered. :)