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In the Jurrasic Park novel and movie nature finds a way. Despite the best efforts of the scientists, trangenderization occurs.
I am not sure if this is a truisim in science, but it certainly works for Star Trek science.
So what I am saying is this, what if, on some planet where a bunch of Jem'Hadar got stranded, maybe even kicked the Ketrecel White, nature took over and female emerged...
Not sure wherte to go with this, just spitballin'. Anyone want to join in? :)
I doubt it. Ian Malcolms trite comments aside, the reason in both the book and movie that the dinoclones were able to do this was that the extremely primitive genetic engineering used by Ingen involved replacing missing genetic sequences with amphibian DNA from species in which this was an established evolutionary trait.
The Founders are far more advanced in their genetic engineering, and they started with a living race, not fragmentary DNA. I really doubt they would have allowed such a trait to exist in their servitor race.
Though would it not make sense that even the founders keep some female Jem'hadr around so that if needed to prevent clone DNA from degrading too much they can produce a few Jem'Hadr naturally every couple of decades.
I hate to say this, but the simple truth is, it's Star trek. So any technobabble explanation, ultimately will suffice for your needs, Aslan.
I don't know how viable or absurd transgenderization is IRL. But there are instances where species spontaneously evolve in order to "re-balance" the equation. When salamander populations become inflated, individuals develop that are fiercely cannibalistic, and they act to cut down the swollen population when food becomes scarce. I think this is the same basic idea upon which Relic (the novel, not the movie) was based. In that novel, the theory was, every so often, you get a bizarre chimera specimen that drives the rest of the species off the genetic plateau.
On a wide scale, I can't see this as being effective in the short term at all, though. But in isolated communities, perhaps. And if Trek can have a rogue planet with no sun to speak of and green leafy plants abounding, then the sky's the limit. I'd say go for it, man. Sometimes in drama, science has to take a back seat. And having a female jem'hadar would make for some interesting drama.
Strictly Speaking
hmmm. I see where your getting at. Not sure I agree, but that is based on my intuition rather than learning or game sense.
Although I cannot help but smirk childishly at the thought of a stranded commune of Jem'Hadar and their single 'Smurfette'...
Childish I know.
How many apples high is a Jem'Hadar?Quote:
Originally posted by Dan Gurden
hmmm. I see where your getting at. Not sure I agree, but that is based on my intuition rather than learning or game sense.
Although I cannot help but smirk childishly at the thought of a stranded commune of Jem'Hadar and their single 'Smurfette'...
Childish I know.
Strictly Speaking
As far as I know, there are only male Jem'Hadar. But I suppose if one was old enough or had aquired the technical skill, he could make a girlfriend. :D
Of course, the female might be worse than the male.
Go for it.Quote:
Originally posted by AslanC
In the Jurrasic Park novel and movie nature finds a way. Despite the best efforts of the scientists, trangenderization occurs.
I am not sure if this is a truisim in science, but it certainly works for Star Trek science.
So what I am saying is this, what if, on some planet where a bunch of Jem'Hadar got stranded, maybe even kicked the Ketrecel White, nature took over and female emerged...
Not sure wherte to go with this, just spitballin'. Anyone want to join in? :)
Though I'd give it at least a scientific explanation. I see no reason why a group of Ketracel deprived Jem'Hadar with enough will to attempt to create a female version of themselves. You also have to consider that they may no longer be able to "fornicate"; their would be no reason to keep it. They could have used Vorta DNA melded with their own, a cross-Vorta/Jem'Hadar breeding female.
Like Strict said, its Trek, anything goes so long as the story is good.
Scary scary stuff - have you any idea how fast those things would breed ! :D
Scientifically it's a little wooly - the entire premise of Jurassic park also wa s alittle wooly but then they did explain it within the confines of the story.
It's harder to imagine the Jem-Hadar having random mutations because of exactly what they are - highly manipulated genetically engineered creatures. They don't eat or need to sleep and don't live naturally much longer than Ocompa do! I know they are meant to be 'male' but in all likellyhood it's a little 'ken and barbie' down there. :D The question would not be - could a female Jem-Hadar naturally occur through random genetic mutation (without any external stimulus) but could they physically actually breed (it might be like Smurphs :D)
That said there is no reason a group of Jem-Hadar couldn't break their paterning (we've seen it happen a few times before) and actually genetically alter themselves (perhaps trying to pass it off as a random mutation at first to confoun / confuse the founders) - after all while they are naturally bread for war they are also incredibly inteligent and fast learners.. Perhaps, much like the situation where they ran into the Iconian portal, they get access to some alien device..... :D
The only really reasonable way I can see for this to come about is for some other race to do some genetic engineering on the Jem'Hadar, probably by combining the DNA of Founder-engineered Jem'Hadar with the original root species.
This could be a Federation experiment to reverse some of the nastier effects of the Dominion genetic engineering - the suppressed intelligence and heightened aggression,the reduced lifespan, the requirement for Ketracel White and of course the asexual biology.
If a group of these reengineered Jem'Hadar were to escape while the project was in its early stages, before the nastier traits were erased, but after sexual dimorphism was introduced, it would have the effect desired without contradicting on-screen evidence.
Gah! I just got a mental image of the cross-dressing gremlin in the movie of the same name! Lipstick and a blonde wig...smoking a cigarette with a long filter...
Strictly Speaking
This seems PRETTY unlikely to me, taking the Federation's genetic engineering policy into account. Making the Jem'Hadar a better race based on Federation ideals would be just as unethical as the Jem'Hadar's initial creation by the Founders.Quote:
Originally posted by Owen E Oulton
The only really reasonable way I can see for this to come about is for some other race to do some genetic engineering on the Jem'Hadar, probably by combining the DNA of Founder-engineered Jem'Hadar with the original root species.
This could be a Federation experiment to reverse some of the nastier effects of the Dominion genetic engineering - the suppressed intelligence and heightened aggression,the reduced lifespan, the requirement for Ketracel White and of course the asexual biology.
If a group of these reengineered Jem'Hadar were to escape while the project was in its early stages, before the nastier traits were erased, but after sexual dimorphism was introduced, it would have the effect desired without contradicting on-screen evidence.
Besides, why should anyone want to make the Jem'Hadar into a "normal" species. I doubt that they themselves would want that. "Females, what's that?" :D
The Federation does allow genetic engineering to reverse genetic defects. This would, of course, be a special case - the Jem'Hadar have been tampered with, and such a procedure would be designed to reverse many of the features designed in by the Founders which made the Jemmies such a problem. This isn't a case of "make my kid smarter and stronger" as it was with Bashir. This is a case of "freeing" genetic slaves.
Of course, there's always the option of making an unauthorised project, or a non-Federation one. There are lots of races in the Gamma Quadrant who would dearly love to neutralise the Dominion's enforcers, for both benevolent (most likely in this scenario) or malevolent motives.
Now I have the mental image of female Quark with his dress up !
I hate you all :)
Actually perhaps a good mission to do would be to find the actual jem-Hadar homeworld. Because of single bit error degridation it would do the founders well to keep the original homeworld - probably with what we would consider neanderthal Jem Hadar - who do breed with each other and live in what would probably be a perpetual suspended state of existence.
It would be an interesting mission! and would allow for many of those things !
"Because of single bit error degridation"
You mean degradation, as in replicators? Not really a problem with modern medical replicators, but you can't replicate something you don't have a pattern for, so of course you are correct, they would have to find the proto-Jem'Hadar homeworld to secure DNA samples from females of the species.
Err no that didn't come out right. I was refering to the fact that they are making clones of clones of clones of.. you get the idea. It's basically the same problem that a species like the Asguard had in SG1 - thyey were highly advanced but over milenia they lost their original blueprints and began suffering from DNA errors.
The Jem hadar as a species would need to refer back to their roots every now and again because they would become vunerable to specific things - if all the clones were identical then they could all be alergic too / susceptible too / suffer from EXACTLY the same thing. THat would be a huge tactical error on the part of the founders! WHile they sare skilled genetic manipulators - cutting and pruning and designing is one thing, but if you take cuttings from only one tree you'll just get the same tree, they would need a supply of fresh DNA of a living and evolving species. Perhaps they have actually bred true species of jem hadar they don't use for war, that can breed and that they can actually experiment on (testing them for disease resistance etc) - which in turn would lead for a very 'moral dilema' led issue - do you interfere or not, especially if you discover it AFTER peace has already been sued for!
Nobody ever said that this is the way Jem'Hadar are created. I suppose that the Founders are capable of synthesizing exactly the genes/DNA sequences they want. So they won't have to worry about running out of original stem-cells, which would force them use cloned cells as a blueprint. They ould only have to make sure that nobody tampers with their computers.Quote:
Originally posted by Tobian
Err no that didn't come out right. I was refering to the fact that they are making clones of clones of clones of.. you get the idea. It's basically the same problem that a species like the Asguard had in SG1 - thyey were highly advanced but over milenia they lost their original blueprints and began suffering from DNA errors.
Since Michael Westmore used only about a dozen of different Jem'Hadar heads until season 5 or so it seems likely that there is relatively little genetic variance in the Jem'Hadar. Of course, diversity is good, but, looking at the death toll of most plagues, only a very small percentage of the population is resistant to the pathogen responsible. So, what use would there be if, say 1 of 1000 soldiers survived a B or C weapon strike. It would me much more efficient to develop a new variant of Jem'Hadar immune to the threat, getting closer and closer to the real super-soldier each time, than spending a lot of ressources on genetic variance, that might or might not pay off.Quote:
Originally posted by Tobian
The Jem hadar as a species would need to refer back to their roots every now and again because they would become vunerable to specific things - if all the clones were identical then they could all be allergic too / susceptible too / suffer from EXACTLY the same thing. THat would be a huge tactical error on the part of the founders!
I thought about this some more and realized I couldn't remember whether they had spoken about the Jem'Hadars origins in the series. We're assuming that they had females, while maybe they reproduced asexually. If you took this route then you could have mutated Jem'Hadar warriors in labour...not something I'd like to envision but it could be possible.:p
It's hard to say one way or another exactly how the jem hadar are created - weather they just produce thousands of stem-cell clones at a massive production facility and bring them online as needed - or if they can literally design them on computers.
Experience today shows us that nature is the best kitchen for such things so it's hoighly probable that they would keep such a set of live REAL Jem Hadar going somewhere, but then equally their computer software might be so advanced they can do it without physical samples - adjusting DNA on the fly and computer modeling viruses and pathogens to calculate imune responses. I suspect both because I don't suspect the Founders would have any problems with making live test subsjects for their experiments!
The Jem Hadar were stated as all being male, so this implies sexual reproduction (but then equally what you said could be valid if they wrerte genetically mutated / tinkered with)
The actual possiblity of Jem Hadar motating at all must be very slim. They are grown in very controlled conditions very rapidly - which means that it would be very hard for one to slip through the loop as it were.
Just because the Jem Hadar all look physically similar doesn't mean their biology isn't all that different (and just saying Michael westomore only made so many masks doesn't really work as those masks would have to be trimmed and altered for different actors!) I suspect they have batches of different one's - trying out subtle alterations to see which one works out best - which in some ways explains why random mutations have occured - such as the one who managed to kick the ketracel white habit - his entire birth batch might have been imune, it's just that they might have not been actually stationed with him!
Given that they were produced in a lab (or what not) and that sexual reproduction would not me needed. . .why would they have sex organs at all? There is no need for them to reproduce. . .so off with their. . .well you get the idea. ;)
The only mutated Jem'Hadar I remember is the leader that no longer required the ketricel white. Bashir tried to find out if it was something in the environment that could be used to help other Jem'Hadar to "kick" the habit, but it turned out that he physically didn't need it to live.
I got the idea already - hence my 'ken and barbie' reference :)
In a medical sense the ketracel white provided everything that the Jem Hadar lacked - inlcuding water and nourishment as they didn't otherwise need to eat.