Trill Pregnancy

Now here's an interesting issue to ponder...

I am writing a campaign that spans over a Century in time, having stories that occur in the Movie Era, DS9 Era, and the future.

Naturally, one of the common threads that I have running through the eras is a Trill symbiont, for whom, necessarily, I have had to flesh out a complete history.

Now, we've debated Trill surnames, spots vs. ridges., and I've got most of that square in my head as far as my own campaign goes.

But what about Trill pregnancy?

Can a Trill, with a symbiont in her abdomen, carry a child? or would she have to give birth before being joined?

I'm interested in what you guys think.

From a purely mechanical standpoint, I'd say yes. We've seen the size of a symbiont; it's around the size of a newborn. That means that pregnancy in a joined Trill would be something like carrying twins: somewhat more uncomfortable than carrying a single infant, but something women do successfully all the time. Given advanced medicine and the experience that Trill physicians have with joining and the complications thereof, I'd say it's unlikely to be much riskier than a normal pregnancy.

Hmm.... Trills might have a different arrangement of internal organs so it is quite possible that they can go through pregnancy while caring a symbiont. In fact for all we know about trill mating habits they might just as well lays eggs ;)

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Originally posted by Age of Toast
But what about Trill pregnancy?

Can a Trill, with a symbiont in her abdomen, carry a child? or would she have to give birth before being joined?

I'm interested in what you guys think.

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A couple of ideas:

1. The female Trill's body, when the symbiont is present, tricks itself into thinking it's already pregnant, in effect, preventing ovulation.

2. The symbiont itself carries a hormone that prevents ovulation.

This, of course, is dependent on how much volume the symbiont takes up in the hosts body. I don't remember enough about Trill physiology from TNG and DS9 to make that call. For one, I thought Trills had a special "compartment" (for lack of a better term) where the symbiont rests.

If the symbiont doesn't take up too much space within the abdomen, then the it may just be uncomfortable for the last part of the gestation period as the baby compresses its habitat and everything else.

If the symbiont is large enough that it would be harmed by a fetus, either 1. or 2. would be a natural defense. If you don't want a natural defense, then the Symbiosis Commission probably forces sterilization, or, at least, some form of severe birth control to prevent harm to the symbiont.

However, I suppose you should look at episodes dealing Jadzia and Worf's relationship to see if they spent any time talking about children. (I thought they talked about kids at least once...it's been a while.)

I'd say that if they did talk about having children and if Jadzia or Julian didn't mention any concerns about her joined status, then the symbiont isn't harmed by pregnancy.

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Originally posted by Age of Toast

Can a Trill, with a symbiont in her abdomen, carry a child?

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Since Jadzia was joined and she never looked pregnant to me :) I assume that there shouldn't be a space problem.

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Originally posted by SeaTyger
However, I suppose you should look at episodes dealing Jadzia and Worf's relationship to see if they spent any time talking about children. (I thought they talked about kids at least once...it's been a while.)

I'd say that if they did talk about having children and if Jadzia or Julian didn't mention any concerns about her joined status, then the symbiont isn't harmed by pregnancy.

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They were talking about having a baby. They mentioned that Julien had found a way that would have allowed them to have children despite of their genetic incompatibility.

mmm... I love canon evidence. Thanks, Ergi!

any other thoughts?

~mmm... cinnamon and sugar....

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Originally posted by Ergi
They were talking about having a baby. They mentioned that Julien had found a way that would have allowed them to have children despite of their genetic incompatibility.

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Then I'd say that symbiont isn't harmed by pregnancy. It just get squished and jostled around like the rest of the mother's organs. :) It'd certainly make for interesting roleplaying. :D

Then I'd say that symbiont isn't harmed by pregnancy. It just get squished and jostled around like the rest of the mother's organs. It'd certainly make for interesting roleplaying.

Hormonal shifts AND seven lifetimes of memories (with the ubiquitous 'dodgy' former host)???

*chuckles evilly to his self and smoothes out his Mr Sinister beard and 'tache*

Cheers

Tas

I wonder how the mother's attitude towards the child might change (due to symbiont control) once the baby starts kicking the symbiont. :D

Of course, all this speculation is predicated on the notion that the internal arrangement of a female Trill is analogous to that of a human. Remember, Spock's heart was where a human's liver should be. . . .

Jadzia talked about being a mohter in past joinings. So yeah, joined Trill can have babies.

I'd hate to revive an old debate... but what of naming conventions then?

Would the child bear the Parent's former name, or the symbiont's name?

If it bore the symbiont's name, it would certainly explain why some Trill seem to have familial names based on symbiont rather than host...

...and it would seem to further the idea of the joined being existing as a completely new and seperate one.

but it does bear some awkwardness, wouldn't you say?

...would you like that toasted?

See that's why I think allowing joined Trill to have babies (from the writers POV) was a bad idea. They didn't think these things out.

So there are no rules on this one, make it I guess.

In UST (if they ever meet Trills) joined one cannot give birth for some of the reasons Sea Tyger mentioned. :)

Noted, since I *am* playing in your campaign.

and while Sea Tiger's suggestion is getting more and more tempting, I'd like to stick a little closer to canon.

I know this isn't a simple issue. I wouldn't be asking you fine folks if it were.

So what *if* a Joined Trill had a baby? How would it be named?

(Don't worry, for my purposes, I have already decided that *if* there is to be a name change, that it will only apply to those offspring coming _after_ the joining, thereby making it possible for siblings to have different surnames.)

Various incarnations of the Dax Symbiotes have had children, but then nothing was said about if they had them BEFORE or after their joining. The symbiosis commission was quite strict on the joining and I think even Jadzia was quite old before she actually got her symbiote (at least 21) so there's every chance she could have already had children before this time (if she'd wanted).

But then yes as Ezri pointed out if they talked about having children then yes it's probably possible. I suspect it would be no different than having twins or triplets with the symbiote in there, and for all we know Trill might have very small bablies compared to us ?

If I remember correctly I looked at a web page once that covered the Trill, pointing out that TNG and DS9 Trill are nothing alike. . .either in appearance and some other ways. It went on to point out that no reason was given on screan for the new look, and complained that two species developing on the same planet was a long shot.

To me. . .the Trill have always looked like the DS9 type. When watching TNG show with the Trill, just pretend they have spots. But now. . .this thread has got me thinking. Perhaps TNG Trill are the orginal this is how we look brand Trill. . .and the DS9 Trill are the brand of Trill you get when a Trill is born to a mother with a symbiont? That would be kind of interesting.

(Sigh) The absolute simplest theory which accounts for all known facts is that Odan was surgically altered to hide the fact that he was a Trill. It is quite explicit in the TNG episode that he was concealing the fact that he was not just an ordinary humanoid. His avoidance of the Transporter was calculated to avoid revealing the existance of the symbiont.

Yes, it's retcon, but so is every other theory, and this one is the simplest and most straightforward.

BTW, as for the pregnancy bit, Both Audrid and Emony had children after being joined, according to dialogue in several episodes.

Since the joined Trill takes the name of the symbiont as a surname at the time of joining, I would say that the joined Trill's unjoined children would bear her old surname (Trill have two names, even before joining).

If they have a marriage custom where one partner's surname is taken by the other, then the children would bear the surviving surname.

When (if) they were ever joined, they would take the surname of their symbiont, as normal.

At least in my campaign, it's perfectly possible for a joined female Trill to have children, since there is canon evidence that this has occured, and that Jadzia was at least thinking about it. They can't remove the symbiont for more than a few hours without dying, and it's likely that the gestation period is comparable to that of other humanoid species -- measured in months, not days or hours. Therefore, pregnancy with a symbiont must be possible.

In the season 6 finale of DS9, Dax & Worf were consulting with Dr Bashir about having a child. The question wasn't weather she could have one, it was if it were possible to procreate between a Trill & a Klingon