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I'm sorry, but I have ZERO faith in these kind of systems, to work the laser system would have to be hugh and therefore VERY expensive, to the point of being impractical...but since when has a President worried about that.
Also, even with a 1% failure rate that is still allowing alot of warheads through, especially if the missiles are nukes. Sure, it is a smaller number, but you only need one nuke.
I'd rather have a 99% shield than nothing at all. Better to build some means of defense rather than rely on nothing.Quote:
Originally posted by Phantom
I'm sorry, but I have ZERO faith in these kind of systems, to work the laser system would have to be hugh and therefore VERY expensive, to the point of being impractical...but since when has a President worried about that.
Also, even with a 1% failure rate that is still allowing alot of warheads through, especially if the missiles are nukes. Sure, it is a smaller number, but you only need one nuke.
Possible deployment date is 2007. Cost is set to about 250 million dollars from 1996-2002. I can't imagine the deployment cost. The Crusader was cancelled in May 2002 by the Department of Defense. They also cancelled the Commanche RAH-66 after years of development. I wouldn't be surprised if this Laser Tech would go the same way after an attempt at development.
You can check some other systems at
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/index.html
Its fairly interesting. The information is also pretty accurate.
Defense from who? Last I heard the era of the ICBM was over. We have more to fear from a terrorist bringing a nuke (or your choice of doomsday device) into North America in a suitcase, then we ever will from a missile.Quote:
Originally posted by Lt.Khrys Antos
I'd rather have a 99% shield than nothing at all. Better to build some means of defense rather than rely on nothing.
I won't talk about the political aspect of this issue (feel free to pm me to discuss it), since we are prohibited.Quote:
Originally posted by Phantom
Defense from who? Last I heard the era of the ICBM was over. We have more to fear from a terrorist bringing a nuke (or your choice of doomsday device) into North America in a suitcase, then we ever will from a missile.
The main purpose is to remain one step ahead of every one else in case of any future problem. It is best to be prepared decades in advance in case of future problems. The issue of a missile defense shield is primarily a political issue.
Alot of modern weapon systems have ceased to have any serious use. Modern armor has had its role primarily removed by mechanized infantry. Aircraft with pilots are also going on the way out. UAV's are far more interesting tools of warfare, and an added plus is the relative cost versus that of an aircraft which must carry a human aboard. There is no army on this Earth that is seriously able to compete on the battlefield with our neighbor down South. One of the many reasons, is that the U.S.A. keeps itself one step ahead of everyone else in terms of technology and overall military strategy.
Don't get me wrong for a small country like Isreal this would be a good and prudent defense. They are a country actually under threat from short range rocket attack, and it would only require a few "gun turrets" to protect them. A country like the USA and Canada (since Canadian territory would be used to close the Northern end of the Grid) would be far too costly, you are looking at what? A perimeter of about 10 000 miles (for just one ring of defenses?) How many "laser turrets" would be needed? Doesn't seem too cost effective to me.
"I'd rather have a 99% shield than nothing at all."
:shrug: Hope you don't live near a major urban center.
"The main purpose is to remain one step ahead of every one else in case of any future problem."
How is this accomplished by building an obscene number of glorified search lights?
Wouldn't that 250 Million been better spent beefing up security at our ports and airports, hiring more customs agents and Coast Guardsmen and putting sensing devices along the Can./US border?
I'd rather be near a major urban center under Antos' deployment schedule than under yours, Phantom... Anyhoo, a more sensible plan would be forward depoyment so they can lase the missiles in their boost phase. Deployed, say, to Okinawa and combined with the ABMs in Alaska, and the Aegeis ABM on Navy ships this could well stop everything North Korea could throw at us, or greatly reduce the effects of a Chinese first strike. No, it wouldn't save everyone in an attack scenario, but the ones who were saved would be damn glad of it. Your way strikes me as passing on health insurance to pay for a gym membership.Quote:
Originally posted by Phantom
"I'd rather have a 99% shield than nothing at all."
:shrug: Hope you don't live near a major urban center.
A Chinese first strike!? Oh, for...someone has been reading too much Harold Coyle or Tom Clancey.
Can someone give me a REAL scenario where these things would be of any use...other then as 4th of July light shows?
"I'd rather be near a major urban center under Antos' deployment schedule than under yours, Phantom."
Sure whatever, one gets through, 10 gets through...you are just as finished either way. Besides, if there is this great exchange of nukes that Bush and his supporters "think" will happen, do you really want to be around "The Day After?" I'm not sure I would.
There is a big difference between 10 and 1 getting through. In major urban centers, it can mean the difference between casualties in the 100,000's of thousands instead of in the millions. Excluding the irradiation of metals in the centers, repeated strikes upon cities is a staple of a nuclear strategy.Quote:
Originally posted by Phantom
A Chinese first strike!? Oh, for...someone has been reading too much Harold Coyle or Tom Clancey.
Can someone give me a REAL scenario where these things would be of any use...other then as 4th of July light shows?
"I'd rather be near a major urban center under Antos' deployment schedule than under yours, Phantom."
Sure whatever, one gets through, 10 gets through...you are just as finished either way. Besides, if there is this great exchange of nukes that Bush and his supporters "think" will happen, do you really want to be around "The Day After?" I'm not sure I would.
I "live" in Montreal. I work in Ottawa in a government building that is far outside the city limits. I'm not personnally worried about being killed in the advent of a nuclear exchange.
But let's look at scenarios. Can you really tell me exactly what will happen in the next 40-50 years? Can you guarantee the safety of the U.S. citizen at home from foreign attack? It wasn't obvious at the end of WW2 that Stalin had extreme territorial ambitions. It wasn't clear how far the Soviet Union and China would go in Korea (likewise for the U.S.). It wasn't clear whether the U.S.A. would resort to the use of nuclear weapons in Vietnam if the Soviet Union or China had provided OVERT aid to the VC. Better to be prepared.
Future threats could include a re-armed and re-centralized non-democratic Russia. Russia swings from states of weakness to extreme power. It has an arsenal, but has not used it to date, keyword: To date. China has mostly been interested in its regional sphere of influence. However, what would occur if India and China crossed into a deep conventional war that would begin with border disputes. China launched a surprise attack on Indian positions in 1962. It had in previous years subjugated Tibet. It has territorial ambitions that include important U.S. allies (and maybe future possibilities). Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Malaysia, Phillipines, Pakistan and maybe someday India are all high value U.S. allies. A regional war that would end with a massive Indian defeat would grant them unqualified dominance over these areas. A scenario that is simply unacceptable.
Another scenario is the NK rogue state proposition. I'm not seriously swayed by it. But it would deter them from even trying in the first place.
Another, also unlikely, another rise of fasco-nationalistic sentiment in Europe. Either the speedy and anarchic break-up of the EU or a extreme strengthening of its political structure. With its economy it stand to pose a serious threat if two conditions are met. The national governments are rendered inept AND there is a serious military build-up by the new EU superpower.
As for "wanting" to be around the next day. Some may not want to. That's not up to them to decide. Some of us have a duty to protect citizens of our countries, through the good and bad. Someone has to seriously sit down and think a strategy through in case of a nuclear exchange. The end result of a Dark Age because people didn't want to deal with this ugly possibility is unacceptable.
I hope this doesn't break the ban. If it does, I'm more than happy to continue this through PM's.
I can see how this would break the ban, it's two people discussing tactics and strategy, as far as I m concerned.
Can I guarentee the US won't be attacked? No, but having grown up in the latter part of the Cold War and WWWIII "threat" and knowing it would never happen ( at least unconventionally), I can say with some self confidence that if it is it won't be by any means this program will be able to defend against. But don't worry when Abu Whatshisname detonates a WMD in NY or DC I won't say "I told you so." And if in the very slim chance that I am wrong, then while I am learning to glow in the dark after "the Chinese First Strike" I will be the first to say "Ooopppss!";)
Just as finished if I'm in that one city. You would really consign 9 cities to atomic fire just because you couldn't save the 10th one as well? I suspect the folks in the first nine might disagree with you somewhat. Just a hunch. At any rate, much like ICBMs themselves, this is something you build so you DON'T have to use it. You think Gen. Xiong Guankai would have made his 1995 threat that we "cared more about Los Angeles than Taipei." if we had such a system in place at the time? Such a system could well deter rouge states from further research into ICBMs. (And as for the suitecase nukes, we're already keeping an eye on our ports, and are actively involved in killing those who want to use one on us.)Quote:
Originally posted by Phantom
"I'd rather be near a major urban center under Antos' deployment schedule than under yours, Phantom."
Sure whatever, one gets through, 10 gets through...you are just as finished either way. Besides, if there is this great exchange of nukes that Bush and his supporters "think" will happen, do you really want to be around "The Day After?" I'm not sure I would.
To quote Cmdr Spock "military secrets are the most fleeting of all." If the West does take up this new defense (and be assured the rest of the US allies would want the info on this) how long before these Grand Villians, these Arch Fiends of the world get their hands on it and find a way to exploit weaknesses?
Come on guys! Do you really believe that anyone will press the button and launch a inter-continental attack against North America? Wow! And I thought I was marginally paranoid. At least I am paranoid about a realistic scenario.:eek:
What is a realistic scenario? Was the escalation of violence between the Soviet Union and Afghanistan realistic? What about Vietnam and the U.S.? Did anyone believe these would become problematic military engagements? Agencies such as Mossad, CSIS, CIA and the FBI (and many, many more) are charged with assessing and ensuring the safety of citizens from ALL potential sources; especially from friends. Keep your enemies close, but your friends even closer...Quote:
Originally posted by Phantom
To quote Cmdr Spock "military secrets are the most fleeting of all." If the West does take up this new defense (and be assured the rest of the US allies would want the info on this) how long before these Grand Villians, these Arch Fiends of the world get their hands on it and find a way to exploit weaknesses?
Come on guys! Do you really believe that anyone will press the button and launch a inter-continental attack against North America? Wow! And I thought I was marginally paranoid. At least I am paranoid about a realistic scenario.:eek:
Do I believe it will happen? Personnally I doubt it would happen within my lifetime. Then again, my grandfather didn't think Germany would seriously consider attacking Poland in 1939 after it had signed treaties with the U.K. and France. You never, ever know. You must be prepared decades ahead of time. Poland wasn't, it paid the price, much like the gran majority of the smaller states of Europe at the time.
The development of weapon systems is an on-going effort. You create a device, your enemy creates a counter-measure and so it goes. This is an endless loop. It can neither be broken nor stopped. Sharing is an altogether other issue. Simply put, if Canada developped such a system, I believe sharing it with the U.S. would be clearly in our interests and maybe with the British. Everyone else can figure it out on their own.
This laser tech vs ballistic missiles is similar to the Tank vs ammunition penetration. As the armor on Tanks increased so did the power, range and accuracy of artillery and ammunition. This is also true in the reverse. Its a race to see who can build the best weapon system. This Laser defense system would be like an umbrella, with a few holes, but an umbrella nevertheless. Up to now, we haven't had any rain...yet.
But like I said, I don't believe such a system would survive switches from one administration to another in whatever democracy it was being developped. The costs of innovation and deployment are much too high.
Quote:
No, but having grown up in the latter part of the Cold War and WWWIII "threat"
WWWIII??? World Wide Web 3 or World Web War 3 or World Water War 3? ;)
Quote:
Such a system could well deter rouge states
Red states as in Communist or just socialist or are we talking general flag colour? Rouge=Red.
Just some levity. The closer it gets to politics, da wurs da speling!
:D ;)
Ah, comedy...the great equalizer.:DQuote:
Originally posted by Kaiddin
WWWIII??? World Wide Web 3 or World Web War 3 or World Water War 3? ;)
Red states as in Communist or just socialist or are we talking general flag colour? Rouge=Red.
Just some levity. The closer it gets to politics, da wurs da speling!
:D ;)
All valid points LT, however I m sure there were a few Generals that knew what kind of @%&* storm Vietnam was going to be.:eek:
If this idea popped up 20 years ago, as it did with Ronnies Star Wars, a program I supported at the time, I would be behind it as well. But, the case now is who is able to launch anything against us? Iraq? It appears they were out of ammo. China? Why would they? They know anything they launch at the USA will be returned by a factor of 3.
What we have to be afraid of now is these WMD coming in on planes and ships and then planted by human agents. Now, if you are telling me these laser turrets will be able to zap a terrorist as he walks off a plane or ship then I say "I want one in my back yard." But, as long as it is just Grand Moff George's (and I'm not talking Lucas here) plan to build a better Death Star then I say "it is a stupendous waste of money, manpower and time."
They don't have to actually launch their weapons to change our policy. I'll reference again Gen. Xiong Guankai's thinly veiled threat to nuke Los Angeles if we came to Taiwan's defense. Our calculations of what's an acceptable level of friendly civilian casualties isn't shared by all of our possible opponents. L'il Kim's already starving a very sizable fraction of his population, and none of his generals are terribly interested in telling him what he doesn't want to hear. What's to say the pompadored psychopath won't try lobbing a Taep'o-Dong-1 at Hawaii? You really want our only option in that case to be mourning the population of Honolulu and then vaporizing everything between the 38th parallel & the Yalu River?
This isn't paranoia, it's contengency planning. Between WWI & II we had an assortment of naval war plans listed by color codes. WP Black was Germany, Orange was Japan, White was a domestic uprising (parts of which were activated in response to the Bonus Army protests of 1932), Grey - a carribean nation, Green - Mexico, Purple -a Latin American country, Gold was France (They were taken quite seriously until 1939...), and Red was our special allies in the UK. Gold & Red were considered very unlikely, but they were prepared for nonetheless. When the feces impact the ventilator, it's too late to start drawing up plans from scratch. Likewise, when the missiles are in flight, it's too late to start building lasers & ABMs.
If Li'l Kim is so unstable and itching for a fight, as you seem to paint him, then he'll drop the hammer the day before the defense system goes online.
Come to think of it, if he is so big an insano then why hasn't he already dropped California into the drink?
"And as for the suitecase nukes, we're already keeping an eye on our ports, and are actively involved in killing those who want to use one on us."
The current tactics used against terrorism is comparible to fighting cancer with orange juice. Point of proof...Al Qeda (or however you spell it) is still around, in spite of everyones best efforts. War evolves as seen by Cavalry v. tanks in WWI, mobile combat tactics v. static defense WWII, irregular forces v. Regular Army Vietnam...Now it is Terror v. Resolve. Why would Li'l Kim dirty his hands by pushing the button when he can get a bunch of fanatics, not directly connected to him, to do his work? And as to keeping an eye on the airports...I seem to remember reading an article somewhere that said most Western Airports are far from being as alert as they can be.
But, since I can't convince you I 'll finish by saying "hell ya, forget a chicken in every pot. Let's put a 50 Gigawatt flashlight on the roof of every house." I'm sure everyone will be real happy then, until they realize it causes sterility or something.:eek: :D
Though I'm sure it would find a good use during duck season. With computerized tracking, they can kill and cook all in one shot, and you don't have to worry about those pesky pellets.:D
What! :eek: No contengency plan for Canada! I know they are up to something up there.Quote:
Between WWI & II we had an assortment of naval war plans listed by color codes. WP Black was Germany, Orange was Japan, White was a domestic uprising (parts of which were activated in response to the Bonus Army protests of 1932), Grey - a carribean nation, Green - Mexico, Purple -a Latin American country, Gold was France (They were taken quite seriously until 1939...), and Red was our special allies in the UK.
--Cybrludite
And in WWII, Polish Lancers vs Panzers!Quote:
Originally posted by Phantom
War evolves as seen by Cavalry v. tanks in WWI
Phalanx and Goalkeeper seems to like seagulls. Don't tell PETA, they'll probably demand the removal of these two systems. :DQuote:
Though I'm sure it would find a good use during duck season. With computerized tracking, they can kill and cook all in one shot, and you don't have to worry about those pesky pellets.
Yeah, our plan is see who will be the worst PM, then ship he South and hope he runs for Prez. Then we move swiftly and quitely to add the US as the largest Province. :D :pQuote:
Originally posted by redwood973
What! :eek: No contengency plan for Canada! I know they are up to something up there.
"Phalanx and Goalkeeper seems to like seagulls. Don't tell PETA, they'll probably demand the removal of these two systems."
My lips are sealed. I hate seagulls.:eek: :D
The sanity or rationality of foreign leaders can change. No one can ensure to anyone else that with a 100% certainty that we will NEVER go to war against Europe, China, India or anyone else. Strategy dictates that we prepared for the unforseen and a type of ballistic defense system seems like a worthy enterprise. The goal is for defense; and the assumption behind the system is that you will never have to use it. Similar to the creation, production and deployment of nuclear weapons.
I was thinking about it yesterday of a good simile to the issue. Let's say a state designed a mobile laser defense system that could protect divisions or brigades against RPG's and other rocket type attacks. It would essentially make mechanized units invincinble when confronting an enemy without the system. The creation of a missile defense system towards ICBM is similar. It would propel whatever state designed it way ahead of any potential opponents. The goal would be to deter. I know that the system could potentially become a massive waste of money, however, its worth attempting the development. The Crusader project would have advanced the U.S. maybe 30-40 years ahead of everyone else in terms of ordinance delivery.
You can see an evolution of weaponry through the ages. Each step seems to eliminate more individuals out of the actual fighting. The end-goal of any armed force is to remove their soldiers from the equation and have robotized units do the fighting. Whether by UAV's in the air, mechanized units controlled by satellite or boats with automated functions; the end goal is less soldiers in harms way. The side effect now is that each state attempts to aim for your C&C. With the ability to engage enemy forces across the world within days, then the need to be able to reciprocate against your enemies C&C is necessary.
As for Canada, why do you think we're all so close to your border...:eek: :) Soon we'll form an unstoppable mass of mechanized igloos and...beer! You'll never stop us!;)
Oh and Poles didn't charge German tank divisions with cavalry. Polish cavalry was used to transport artillery and supplies around. Also much more useful in the a country with nearly no roads or highways (to this date they only have ONE freaking tiny highway...).
Its really about foresight and strategy. IF in the highly unlikely event such an attack would happen 40-50 years down the road then possessing such a system would be logical. How many major weapon systems were thought to be too costly at the time they were being created? I think its worth it, but I know the project will die in the development phase. Seems like military R&D throughout the world is slowing down and becoming hugely expensive. That may be a good thing in the end.:cool:
Edited so I can pat myself on the back for my 1000th post.:D
The Infamous Yellow Ice Defense System ! Bad Lt. Antos for not keeping the secret. You'll have to sing Oh! Canada twenty times to be forgiven. (Thirty times if you use the French lyrics!) :D ;)Quote:
Originally posted by Lt.Khrys Antos
Soon we'll form an unstoppable mass of mechanized igloos and...beer! You'll never stop us!;)
"I was thinking about it yesterday of a good simile to the issue. Let's say a state designed a mobile laser defense system that could protect divisions or brigades against RPG's and other rocket type attacks. It would essentially make mechanized units invincinble when confronting an enemy without the system."
However, the "Enemy" would soon develope its own system result, like so many other military innovations, stalemate. Now, with systems like tanks and infantry weapons that's not a big problem. But, each turret will probably cost about as much as Bolivia. What will they do 2 years down the line when it is obselete? I know they'll build an even bigger version, stick it on the moon and threaten to vape anyone who doesn't call them Freedom Fries.:eek: :D
At the time, they were covered as part of WP Red. Caused a bit of a stir in US/Canada relations when it was declassified in the '70s.Quote:
Originally posted by redwood973
What! :eek: No contengency plan for Canada! I know they are up to something up there.
(Edited because I misread)
Oh Canada!...(goes on and on)Quote:
Originally posted by Kaiddin
The Infamous Yellow Ice Defense System ! Bad Lt. Antos for not keeping the secret. You'll have to sing Oh! Canada twenty times to be forgiven. (Thirty times if you use the French lyrics!) :D ;)
Our real contigency plan in case is threatened is the super secret plan B. It goes like this:
-We declare war on the U.S.A.
-We invade Vermont.
-We surrender to the U.S.A. before anyone can do anything.
HA! Its fool proof really. How can anyone refuse our surrender?!:p
In the end, the system would become just like any other major weapon system. It would be updated, re-fashioned, expanded upon every few years. Kind of like nuclear weapons were made more powerful, more accurate and overall easier to maintain.
Though I like the moon idea...
Simple. We just have to declare No Quarter. :eek: Of course, I can't think of anything Canada could do to torque the US off that badly, though. (I mean, it's not like y'all are France... :D ) That was a joke, son, a joke! Don't lock the thread on us!Quote:
Originally posted by Lt.Khrys Antos
HA! Its fool proof really. How can anyone refuse our surrender?!:p
In best Elvis voice.Quote:
Originally posted by Lt.Khrys Antos
Though I like the moon idea...
Thank ya, thank ya very much.
The whole argument about the 'arms race' that people use as a reason for America (or any other power) to develop new weapons is there isn't an arms race! America is the only country developing anything new!
If America develops a super laser weapon that can smite it's enemies then yes perhaps China or err - well yeah WHO is this mythical person / persons who is going to actually invest billions in a project to develop some new uber weapon to rival that ? No one but america has that kind of resource, except badly written supervilains in a james bond style novel :D
Yes if america invents a new kind of *new and improved* gun then yeah it won't take long before someone pinches one from the field and improves their own weapon to match it - but the difference between a new boring process or new types of lenses on your sights is different than backwards engineering a superlaser weapon - or stealing it! :) Basically if america doesn't make this NO ONE else is going to have one!
Most of the other powers rely on cheap and readilly available technology and most worryingly fanatical people - there is NO technology that can defeat a person - we are always smarter than the technology we invent (well ok so far anyway :D)
To be honest the one piece of technology which COULD help in America's current battles would be something like the tricorder - a chemical nose, an X ray/ MRI scanner- combining all our knowhow into one place and ready deployment.. Ok so you can't stop someone from doing something stupid but you can know he's got explosives strapped on him ! However of course that's out of our ability right now! Roll on a tricorder :D
In reading this thread, I have seen two sides of this debate . . . and one of them for the most part discredits the future of ballistic and/or conventional warfare against state actors, while focusing their efforts against non-state actors that will use unconventional warfare using low-cost readily available technology. While this is a justified and tried and true new threat, it doesn't mean that conventional warfare agianst a state actor, or a multiple state actor is unforceable in the future.
And as such, if there is still that threat, one must develop countermeasures against the strengths of those forces, as well as to decrease ones own weaknesses. And in accordance to that, there is still a threat of one day in the future a state-actor, or a non-state actor with the access to ballistic weaponry, may chose to use this weaponry as leverage or to actually use it. Therefore, there is cause to develop technologies that lead towards a system that could marginalize the effect of such weaponry.
Yet, in the same token, we must also adapt some of our forces to combat this new type of warfare that doesn't center itself around the conventional force of brigades, and higher echolons of units; of a decentrilized force that has no real command structure that warpes and uses ones beliefs to advance their own agenda. And in doing so, new technology and new doctorine will be developed that will, with time and experience, be found effective in that type of warfare.
I could fully agree with you on this point, except for one thing. There is only so much $$$ to go around, end result they only go for one plan. And it is usually the big, maybe usuful in the future boondoogle that will be chosen. Not the less expensive, useful now idea.Quote:
Originally posted by JALU3
Yet, in the same token, we must also adapt some of our forces to combat this new type of warfare that doesn't center itself around the conventional force of brigades, and higher echolons of units; of a decentrilized force that has no real command structure that warpes and uses ones beliefs to advance their own agenda. And in doing so, new technology and new doctorine will be developed that will, with time and experience, be found effective in that type of warfare.
I have never heard of a cheap or less expensive government/army project. I've been working with the government for over 2 years now; cost is no object. I'm sure the U.S. works the same way.:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally posted by Phantom
I could fully agree with you on this point, except for one thing. There is only so much $$$ to go around, end result they only go for one plan. And it is usually the big, maybe usuful in the future boondoogle that will be chosen. Not the less expensive, useful now idea.
Note, I said "less expensive" not "cheap."
Too complicated for most bureaucrats to understand.:DQuote:
Originally posted by Phantom
Note, I said "less expensive" not "cheap."
They either throw billions at a project or starve it to death.
Too true.Quote:
Originally posted by Lt.Khrys Antos
Too complicated for most bureaucrats to understand.:D
They either throw billions at a project or starve it to death.