Transporters and antimatter

My apologies if this is on the wrong forum. I'm not really sure where this should go (I almost put it on the Spacedock forum, but it seems more a general thing than Spacedock-specific).

Basically, if you have an antimatter containment unit,and you transport it away from the vessl, will the antimatter go with it? I remember that there were transporter bombs in FASATrek, but I don't know if they're considered canon or not. And the only time I remember a torpedo being used in a similar manner, the Borg themselves broought it on board, and they're transporters seem a wee bit different.

Thanks, all!

Pat

I think that you can transport the antimatter. If memory serves right, i think that is how they arm antimatter torpedoes. They transport antimatter into them right before launch, but I could be wrong.

In the TOS episode Obsession, Kirk and a red-shirt ensign beamed down to a planet with an anti-matter bomb. The odd part is, both of them survived...

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:) <<<<

LUGTrek isn't really dead. Not as long as we remember it.

On page 68 of the ST TNG Technical Manuel it says:
“Antimatter, even contained within storage pods, cannot be moved by transporter without extensive modifications to the pattern buffer, transfer conduits, and transporter emitters for safety reasons… (Specific exceptions apply for small quantities of antimatter stored in approved magnetic containment devices…”

One of these containment devices is seen in the TNG episode “Peak Performance”

Hope this helps. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif


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Just remember, even though it’s a vacuum,
In space no one can hear you Clean.
-J.T.

"One of these containment devices is seen in the TNG episode “Peak Performance”"

...and another in the afore-mentioned Obsession...

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Originally posted by Sarge:
In the TOS episode Obsession, Kirk and a red-shirt ensign beamed down to a planet with an anti-matter bomb. The odd part is, both of them survived...

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Well, they had already used their quota of redshirts in that episode.

Thanks guys, that does help. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif

Pat

Here's a twisted thought ...

Transporters create matter from energy, using stored patterns. Basically, they work like replicators, except they can handle much more complex objects (such as living beings).

I've always assumed that, as long as you had the pattern for an object on record, a transporter could be used as a replicator in a crunch situation. Heck, I figure that if someone beamed up the Mona Lisa, you could make multiple perfect copies as long as the original pattern remained in the buffer.

So then, could you use a transporter to beam anti-matter directly onto the bridge of an enemy ship? And you wouldn't even need to beam over the fancy magnetic-bottle containment device ...

Okay, let's say the enemy ship's shields are still up. How about just beaming the antimatter right next to the ship?

Of course, that's basically what a photon torpedo is -- an anti-matter charge in a self-propelled device. The difference is, of course, the use of a transporter to transmit the anti-matter.

In a way, Janeway already used this idea -- pretty effectively I might add -- when she beamed a photon torpedo directly into a Borg ship. Nice explosion.

I'm guessing, however, that she probably would have beamed the anti-matter that was inside the photon torpedo directly into the Borg ship if she could have done it without risking the safety of her own crew. I figure she didn't want the chance that the beam would be blocked, causing the anti-matter to wind up being "returned to sender" ...

Any comments?

Eris

"Why not just beam antimatter/gernades/sleep gas canisters to the bridge of the enemy ship?"

First off, you can't beam through shields. If the shields are down, the ship will shortly be toast anyway. Why not "just" hit the brige with a photon topedo?

Phasers and photon torpedoes have a greater range than transporters. A PC can try the old transporting a bomb thing in my game... but he has to make a Starship Systems(transporter) check. And they have to have their OWN shields down (at least for an instant). Invariably the target number for a Starship Systems (tactical) check is easier.

That's not to say that it's never useful to transport bombs... but they are usually less effective than conventional weapons.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Jabara Eris:
In a way, Janeway already used this idea -- pretty effectively I might add -- when she beamed a photon torpedo directly into a Borg ship. Nice explosion.

I'm guessing, however, that she probably would have beamed the anti-matter that was inside the photon torpedo directly into the Borg ship if she could have done it without risking the safety of her own crew. I figure she didn't want the chance that the beam would be blocked, causing the anti-matter to wind up being "returned to sender" ...

Any comments?

Eris

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The detonation of a photon torpedo is more damaging than a similar amount of "raw" anti-matter. The torpedo uses small "packets" of AM allowing for greater anhilation.



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Greg

"Calm may work for Locutus of Borg here, but I'm freaked and intend to stay that way."

I think the biggest difficulty in transporting an antimatter bomb is the fact that both of your shields must be down.

Transport takes 5 seconds, a few of which require your shields down, but you don't want to cut it too close, and have residual shield energy reflecting stuff around.

With the borg, they apparently have much more experience (are adapted) with antimatter attacks from the outside-in rather than the inside-out. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif

And in that Voy episode, they didn't have time to heavily modify the transporters, so a torpedo casing was used (which is an approved device for handling antimatter)

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Quote:

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Specific exceptions apply for small quantities of antimatter stored in approved magnetic containment devices

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http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif Define "small" amount http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif

1 kilogram of antimatter will produce a Very Large Nuclear-sized blast.

Actually, if I remember correctly, 1 kg of antimatter would crack the Earth's crust, if not shatter it completely. Antimatter's nasty! http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif

Pat

Exactly - so how small is "small"

That's what I meant by the Capital Letters. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif

This message has been removed on request by the
poster

Antimatter damage (math removed for simplicity’s sake):

The reaction of .5 kilograms of antimatter with .5 kgs of normal matter would release about the same amount of energy as a 21.3 megaton nuclear warhead.
I believe the bomb dropped on Hiroshima was about 1 kiloton (or .001 megatons). A friend of mine told me the US military now had nukes that were rated at 50 megatons.
One kg of antimatter cant fracture the Earth’s crust. It can make one almighty big bang however. http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif

A photon torpedo contains 3 kgs of reaction mass (1.5 kg of matter and 1.5 kg of antimatter). This means a photon torpedo does about 64 megatons. On page 84 of the DS9 Technical Manual it says that photon torpedoes are rated at 18.5 Isotons. This would mean that one Isoton probably equals 3.5 megatons.


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Just remember, even though it’s a vacuum,
In space no one can hear you Clean.
-J.T.

In theory Antimatter shouldn't be transported/replicated due to its inherent destructive qualities of beeing anti to matter!

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SIR SIG a Aussie TREK Narrator

That's why the "extensive modifications" and/or "Approved containment devices" are required to transport antimatter.

Transporters must have their parts isolated from the antimatter, or recognize the containment device & properly time the materialization process so you don't end up with not enough containment device for the amount of antimatter present part-way through transport.

Quote:

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Originally posted by suicide junkie:
That's why the "extensive modifications" and/or "Approved containment devices" are required to transport antimatter.

Transporters must have their parts isolated from the antimatter, or recognize the containment device & properly time the materialization process so you don't end up with not enough containment device for the amount of antimatter present part-way through transport.

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But it is still a form of enregy that isolates the antimatter. And this energy is thus still matter.



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SIR SIG a Aussie TREK Narrator

This message has been removed on request by the
poster

Stricly speaking from my pov: I think Antimatter like Matter is interchangable with Energy as of the mid-23rd century. and therefore can be transported to another locale. That is probably the same line of thought the writers of the episodes mentioned earlier in this thread.

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it's pretty obvious that the Borg never played "Risk" as a little collective.

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Originally posted by 6Lore9:
Stricly speaking from my pov: I think Antimatter like Matter is interchangable with Energy as of the mid-23rd century. and therefore can be transported to another locale.

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It is. Antimatter consists of the same subatomic particles than "normal" matter, just in different combinations; making the small electrons positive (?positrons?) and the bigger protons (insert name) negative

Very close Kenny... the particles that make up antimatter are ARE different; they have opposite charge. As far as we know so far, anti-protons are exactly like protons except for having a negative charge. Likewise anti-electrons and electrons. But although currently believed to be the same in all other respects, that difference makes them a different subatomic particle. Change any of the physical properties of a particle- charge, spin, mass, etc... and you have a different particle.

Some scientists think that there might be some other subtle difference between matter and antimatter, to account for the fact that slightly more matter than antimatter was created at the beginning of the universe. All the antimatter presumably reacted with most of the matter, leaving only matter left in the universe. Of course, this opens the intriguing possibility that if some antimatter avoided contact with anything else in those early moments of the universe, there might still be some left out there.

Actually, antiparticles are reversed both in charge and in spin.

Now, since it is canon that you can transport antimatter - it's been done more than once on screen, lets look at applying game mechanics to the problem.

As has been noted, the series has stated A) that you need a special containment system, and B) that the transporter needs to be specially configured to handle antimatter.

I'd require a Systems Engineering (Transporter Systems) roll followed by a Shipboard Systems (Transporter) roll. The better the result on the first roll, the easier the second roll. Only the specially designed antimatter transport containment modules could be used - no transporting over a Photorp. Additionally, all other transporters on the ship would have to be locked out of the system.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Jabara Eris:
Here's a twisted thought ...

Transporters create matter from energy, using stored patterns. Basically, they work like replicators, except they can handle much more complex objects (such as living beings).

I've always assumed that, as long as you had the pattern for an object on record, a transporter could be used as a replicator in a crunch situation. Heck, I figure that if someone beamed up the Mona Lisa, you could make multiple perfect copies as long as the original pattern remained in the buffer.


Eris

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I think that isn´t correct. I have talked about it with my physics teacher and he told me that when an object is beamed, which is already possible today with photons, it is destroyed but an absolutely similar object is created elsewhere. And - back to trek science - while the object is being rematerialized all the information/mater in the transporter buffer is erased.

Think about this:
Would you use a transporter knowing that you are actually killed while somewhere else a new person is created which is absolutely identical to you at the time of your disintegration but isn´t you?


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God, I liked him better before he died.

That kinda really bothers me for some reason...

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it's pretty obvious that the Borg never played "Risk" as a little collective.

Thats just our modern understanding of it!

By trek times I think they've worked out how to reintegrate or the particles instead of simply making another copy.

But thats besides the point, this is trek; its not meant to make perfect sense to us mere 21 centurans.

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'...The Borg have stopped at deck 10...'
'...Deflector Control, no vital systems...'

Not a vital system! What the heck do you think stops the ship going 'poof' every time it goes to warp?

- ST:First Contact; Lt Hawk

Hey, this is Star Trek, not Perry Rhodan!
All the physics aside, isn't it vital to realize that Trek combat is about torpedoes, phasers and shields, not about finding loopholes in what we perceive as 23rd- or 24th century physics.

Not that Janeway's trick with the "surprise present torpedo" that took out the Borg scout craft wasn't cool and worth seeing that "surprised" look on that drone's face... http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif

If the rematerialized person is an exact copy, IT IS YOU!

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Originally posted by suicide junkie:
If the rematerialized person is an exact copy, IT IS YOU!

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Hmmm. We could always go into all that soul stuff! And clones.

http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/biggrin.gif

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'...The Borg have stopped at deck 10...'
'...Deflector Control, no vital systems...'

Not a vital system! What the heck do you think stops the ship going 'poof' every time it goes to warp?

- ST:First Contact; Lt Hawk

"If the rematerialized person is an exact copy, IT IS YOU!"

Pretty much. On the other tentacle, from the point of duplication on, the twinned characters' experiences will differ and they will diverge into different persons with identical backgrounds. Case in point: William and Thomas Riker. Will and Tom, with 8 years of very different post-duplication experience behaved very differently. Tom, for instance, tried to pick up with Deanna where they'd left off, while Will recognised that he and Deanna had grown apart (well, until the influence of the Ba'ku planet stirred up his hormones...). Will remained loyal to Starfleet while Tom deserted to join the Maquis. Very different attitudes.

Now, this could make for some very interesting gaming. I can see two players getting together (with their GM/Narrator's permission) and creating a character which they would both play from the moment of duplication forward. Could be fun...

Quote:

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On the other tentacle, from the point of duplication on, the twinned characters' experiences will differ

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Yes, but both copies are You, just having different experiences.
I wonder what would happen if a powerful telepath was copied? That person could maintain a solid mental link between the two, and essentially have two bodies with the exact same mind!

Say a non-typical aggressive betazoid, copies themself & becomes an army! All of his bodies are in contact will all others, and form a sort of Zergish overmind.

Great villian for a movie - some telepath running around with a hundred bodies, taking revenge for something, and is defeated by using that interconnectedness against him. Maybe because there is a limit beyond which all of his energy is diverted into keeping a connection between all of his selves, and each body can't think as well. Too many bodies, and he basically turns into a group of borg, dumb units with extreme motivation and a master plan, but without the fancy tech.

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Note: Feel free to use this in a game, just tell me how it turns out http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by suicide junkie (edited 03-17-2001).]

Maybe that's taking it a little to far. I mean 100's of bodies all interconnected?

C'mon now!

What happened to the Rikers was a bizarre transporter accident.

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'...The Borg have stopped at deck 10...'
'...Deflector Control, no vital systems...'

Not a vital system! What the heck do you think stops the ship going 'poof' every time it goes to warp?

- ST:First Contact; Lt Hawk

What happened to the Rikers should not have happened at all! It is a violation of Trek's own tech rules. Transporters (and relpicators) do NOT create matter out of energy. They break down and manipulate existing matter. The "transporter trace" is an extensive, but NOT comprehensive, record of the general state of the transport subject at the time of its most recent trip through the system. It DOESN'T store the "Brownian Motion" data that typifies a "living subject". Storing that amount of quantum-level data is well beyond even Federation computer technology. That's why Scotty had to keep the pattern buffers active in "Relics". The quantum data was not stored, but continuously transmitted and received by the system, which only had to "store" the microscopic data fragment that represented that split instant in the matter stream.

On another note, several people have expressed amazement at the firepower of a starship. In TOS, it was said ONE starship could devestate a planet in less than a day. In "The Die is Cast" (DS9), a flotilla of some 30 starships devestated nearly 1/3 of the total surface area of a small Class M planet in their first volley of fire.

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Deo Vindice!

Well I guess if you look at it that way then Thomas shouldn't exist.

But also the energy field around the planet may have in some typical trek wierdness; reconstituted the energy that was reflected into matter.

On the other hand Will was getting beamed up, and so the cloud must have reflected a portion of the matter stream back. That could indicate that the Riker twins aren't identical to start with.

May have to watch it again.

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'...The Borg have stopped at deck 10...'
'...Deflector Control, no vital systems...'

Not a vital system! What the heck do you think stops the ship going 'poof' every time it goes to warp?

- ST:First Contact; Lt Hawk

Quote:

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Originally posted by SIR SIG:
What happened to the Rikers was a bizarre transporter accident.

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That's why you need a mad scientist willing to take extrordinary risks with a transporter make a duplicator device.


OTOH, I suppose he could simply make clones of himself using some stolen Jem Hadar tech, and get the same results.

"What happened to the Rikers should not have happened at all! It is a violation of Trek's own tech rules."

There's precedent which predates those "rules" by over 25 years - the third regular series episode of TOS, The Enemy Within, has a similar accident, where Kirk is duplicated.

On Transporters:
Transporter Chief,"Hey, all I know is that I pull the levers and it goes."
If it helps your story do it. If you have to explain why it does or does not or is a one-shot deal, that's what technobabble is for.

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"Retreat?! Hell, we just got here!"

Quote:

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Originally posted by suicide junkie:

I wonder what would happen if a powerful telepath was copied? That person could maintain a solid mental link between the two, and essentially have two bodies with the exact same mind!

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There was a sci-fi novel trilogy that featured Paratwas, genetically-engineered twins that shared one mind. Between their physical enhancements and the fact that they had perfect coordination with one another, they made devastating combat teams.

I've wanted to throw something like this into a game, but figuring out fair mechanics that actually make a real game difference has usually been a little difficult.

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Originally posted by darkwing duck1:

On another note, several people have expressed amazement at the firepower of a starship. In TOS, it was said ONE starship could devastate a planet in less than a day.

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Actually, you could do the same from orbit with a bunch of rocks, if you had tractor beams to drag-n'-drop 'em. A useful tactic to remember in a pinch.

As far as beaming anti-matter as combat maneuver, I'd think it would be fairly limited in utility. If their shields are down and you can afford to drop yours long enough to beam it over, the fight's pretty much over already in most cases. Given the demonstrated requirements, it would also need to be prepared ahead of time, and I doubt that it would be useul often enough to keep a properly contained supply and properly configured transporter on standby.

In essence, I'd think it would a rare mission-specific tactic rather than a routine option.

-- Roy