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ADB Inc has just announced (at the GAMA trade show and on their website) that they will be releasing D20 and D6 versions of the Prime Directive role playing game, in addition to the new release of GURPS 4th edition Prime Directive.
The new GURPS 4th ed stuff is coming out March/April/May, and the D20 and D6 later this summer in June and July.
Nick Blank
Here is thier latest posted schedule:
http://www.starfleetgames.com/discus...763#POST234614
This is suprising as ADB's FAQ states:
So not only a D20 version but a D6 one too?!?!?! It does look like they are going to print a GURPS, d20 & d6 version of each supplement :confused: . Basically they are going to be competing with themselves. Seems like that would want to multistat their supplements to increases sales and thus profitability.Quote:
Will you ever do a D20 based RPG?
Perhaps, but we have to deal with outside contractors (we don't know the D20 system and cannot do it ourselves) and for whatever reason those who have offered to do this for us never have delivered it.
Additional Info from ADB/Starfleet Games staffer on other systems:
:eek: Possibly more systems. :confused: What kind of business plan is this? I could understand if the additional systems supplements were eBooks (PDFs) or multistated, but this is almost madness. They are spliting their market/sales for Prime Directive into three to five (for each system) for a marginal increase in customer (ie. those that would play Prime Directive only if it is in their favorite system). While d20 would give them more customers because it is the default industry systems, each additional system would hurt them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Cole
Anyone see how this is going to work for ADB?
Atleast this would be some help to those who want a Star Trek RPG in d20, d6 systems to see how they did it.
Yea, bad idea. Fragmenting their already minor marketshare is not a good idea. But then, this is ADB who appear to operate in their own little world. There's a new version of SFB, no counters, B/W, softcover in a ziplock bag at my FLGS for $50. :eek:
How many PD GURPS products were even done? Two?
AFAIK, the PD rulebook and Klingon supplement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Mappin
It would be interesting who will they choose to be the licensee of Prime Directive d20 (or OGL-based Prime Directive).
There was also Prime Alpha so 3 were released :)
In how many years? I believe ADB makes Decipher look prolific by publishing standards. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by IceGiant
Like I said, a strange decision. They're a couple years late to be heading into the D20 market. They're competing against Coda -- very D20-like and better production values -- Babylon 5, Star Wars, Fading Suns, and probably another 3-4 D20 sci-fi products that escape me at the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by REG
The new WEG D6 material is already in my FLGS' bargin bin (all of it).
I sense a discussion of what ADB can and can not do in regards to Trek setting material off the port bow! Someone fire up the FAQ! ;)
It's been a long while since I have played SFB, and I have yet to get into Prime Directive to know their distinct version of the offshoot Star Trek universe. If anything, I wouldn't put any expectation on it and would avoid comparing it to official Paramount version.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Mappin
Decipher have yet to announce new Star Trek RPG products beyond selling those unpublished material that former LUG folks have left behind.
Currently, WotC is "reviewing their licensing agreement" with regards to the Star Wars RPG line.
Fading Sun d20 is quickly fading from the memories of d20 gamers. You have just reminded me that there is such a thing.
We all know what's going on with Stargate.
Margaret Weis's company, Sovereign Press, is set to release Serenity this Summer.
Makes me wonder if sci-fi RPG can survive in the overall RPG market. But as a customer, if given the choice between GURP, d6, and d20 versions of PD, I'd go with d20. At least ADB will get a share of the d20 sales without having to spend their own money designing and developing it.
Any idea what the result will be?Quote:
Originally Posted by REG
:( You made me cry. (Fading Suns is the best sci-fi RPG on the market today or yesterday, IMO.)Quote:
Fading Sun d20 is quickly fading from the memories of d20 gamers. You have just reminded me that there is such a thing.
Could be back. ;)Quote:
We all know what's going on with Stargate.
Not d20 and, to be fair, I doubt this one is going to make much of a splash.Quote:
Margaret Weis's company, Sovereign Press, is set to release Serenity this Summer.
With D20 they'd at least (probably) recoup their costs without having to do too much work [read: negligible design effort required]; d20 customers tend not to be...ahem...that discerning. [ducks] ;)Quote:
Makes me wonder if sci-fi RPG can survive in the overall RPG market. But as a customer, if given the choice between GURP, d6, and d20 versions of PD, I'd go with d20. At least ADB will get a share of the d20 sales without having to spend their own money designing and developing it.
It's still a strange move, though. Do they do the work in-house or do they (ADB) just license "their setting" to someone? Meaning, did SJG do GURPS PD or did ADB do it? A Mongoose D20 PD is lightyears different than a ADB D20 PD, for example.
In any event, its their company...they can do what they want, right? :)
This is a bit of a tangent, but this is also the real question that people should be answering.Quote:
Originally Posted by REG
I've been having a similar discussion in private with some folks and I believe the answer to this question is "no." Sci-fi just isn't popular. It isn't popular in mainstream culture and it isn't popular as part of a segment of a niche cottage industry (RPGs). Non-licensed sci-fi RPGs have a very difficult hill to climb, like Fading Suns. Beyond Traveler, which we could argue only achieved success because it was the only sci-fi RPG at the time, there haven't been many standouts in the industry.
Now we get to the question of whether PD is a "licensed" setting as you and I know it. I contend not. If I randomly grab 100 people off the street, none will know what "Star Fleet Battles" or "Prime Directive" is (beyond the general Trek reference). It's not Star Trek; it's divergent Star Trek. (Can they even use the term "Star Trek" in their material?)
Perhaps the ADB model is to get PD in front of as many fans as possible and see if something will stick. Honestly, it's not like they could do much worse in the RPG department. (Note, that was not a slam/attack, merely a reference to their marketshare: none.)
Given the whole nature of the Prime Directive they would most likely have to do it through work for hire.Quote:
Originally Posted by REG
As Don mentioned, I think the ADB mentality is to get the game in the hands of as many people as possible. They've got the game in one system already. If that isn't doing the trick, perhaps they believe that putting it in other systems may grab more people.
I, for one, haven't had any interest in getting Prime Directive in GURPS. I looked at the book, but it didn't grab me enough for me to want to convert it (I don't play GURPS, I use the books as sourcebooks). I also wouldn't touch the game if it came out in D20. I would say that I may be much more inclined to give some thought towards buying it if the game came out in D6.
From what I've been able to glean from the assorted posts on the WEG boards, ADB boards, and this board, it seems that ADB is doing minimal in the way of dealing with anything other than creating the "idea" of Prime Directive. It will be up to the individual staff of the assorted systems to convert the rules to the system. Scott Palter of Final Sword will be dealing with the D6 aspect, meaning ADB won't be doing anything other than giving them the material and having them make it fit into D6. Scott and his "crew" would be the main workers on the whole project. Of course, SVC will get his hands in on things, as he likes to do.
All told, though, if ADB isn't investing much money, and letting other people do that, and do most of the work, they have everything to gain and nothing to lose. If they get 200 more customers from D6 Prime Directive, and 600 more customers from D20 Prime Directive...then they got 800 more people interested in the game that they created and they get that much more in royalties.(or in reverse, the assorted companies see it as profitable and come back to buy more rights from ADB for the game.)
Now we get to the question of whether PD is a "licensed" setting as you and I know it. I contend not. If I randomly grab 100 people off the street, none will know what "Star Fleet Battles" or "Prime Directive" is (beyond the general Trek reference). It's not Star Trek; it's divergent Star Trek. (Can they even use the term "Star Trek" in their material?)
Well, yes, it is a licensed product, and no, it's not a Star Trek license. Star Fleet Battles is licensed from Franz Joseph Designs, which holds a Star Trek license for their Star Fleet Technical Manual and USS Enterprise Deck Plans. This was one of the early license issued by Paramount and was astoundingly poorly written, as it allowed Franz Joseph Designs (then a one-man operation run by the late Franz Joseph Schnaubelt, now run by his daughter Karen, for whom he did all this stuff) to grant subsidiary licenses. According to the ruling in a huge copyright lawsuit in the early 1980's, ADB's license was upheld, but they do not have the rights to use the name Star Trek, nor the names and likenesses of the characters, nor any materials created by Paramount after the license was granted - i.e. no Movie Era, no TNG, et cetera, jut TOS and TAS.
Personally, given their heavy emphasis on conflict between the various stellar powers which trickles through from their wargame roots, I've always considered Prime Directive to be pretty much the Mirror Universe Role-Playing Game.
If you're asking for my speculation? Let's just say I'm not holding my breath, but be thankful of what I have so far.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Mappin
Perhaps, but it is not popular nor well known. In fact, the only thing Holistic Design are well known for -- in the d20 community -- is their Real-Life Roleplaying line (d20: Afghanistan, d20: Colombia, d20 Somalia, d20: FBI).Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Mappin
I know, but regarding this, I'd like to see a d20 Modern version, personally.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Mappin
Except perhaps roleplayers who have already been fans of Firefly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Mappin
*Forced laughter* Ha-ha.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Mappin
I think we d20 gamers are at a point where we want better quality d20 products. Poor Moridin and JD Wiker, when d20 Future came out, gamers were pretty much disappointed with the lack of in-depth information. It got some of us pretty cautious about the upcoming 96-page d20 Past, supposedly covering a timeline 1450 to 1950.
Didn't ADB requested SJG the license to use their GURPS system? That's what I've been hearing often. Come to think of it, I don't think they have an original PD with their own in-house rules system but GURPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Mappin
I think ADB is going to license Prime Directive d20 to a publisher willing to design, publish, and distribute this product line.
Let's hope it gambled well for them in return.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Mappin
I think if they kept their sales expectation low but their willingness to commit resource to make more-than-decent quality RPG product high, they might do well. Still, doing fairly well may only be short-lived. It also does not mean that roleplayers would want to play Star Fleet Battles. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Mappin
If they do that, then they are going to commit resource to edit the submitted material, provide layout & artwork, print, and distribute.Quote:
Originally Posted by spshu
I doubt it, since they have already admitted no experience to d20. If I were in their shoes, I'd license it out with the conditions of royalty payment and that ADB have approval right. Now, it just a matter of who should be the licensed publisher.
Total tangent, but I picked d20 Past up today. It's craptacular. :mad: It's too short to do anything right and does everything wrong. It, in essence, focuses on three periods/genres and nothing else. Horribly named product. I was going to put up a mini-review on my blog after a second read-through. Short version, until you get a chance to see it yourself, avoid at all costs.Quote:
Originally Posted by REG
Hey, I kinda liked d20 Space! :)
I'll take my chance. I happen to like Pulp Heroes, originally a mini-game designed by David Noonan in one of them past Poly/Dungeon magazine issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Mappin
There are parts of d20 Future that I like (mainly because I have seen a handful of them in past Poly magazine's mini-game series) and some I wished they expanded upon, though not many posters in Wizards' d20 Modern forum are enthusiastic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Mappin
To be honest, of the new d20 Modern supplements to be released this year -- including d20 Apocalypse and d20 Cyberspace, as well as d20 Past -- my preference is d20 Past.
Secretly, I desire d20 Starships, or Star Wars Ultimate Starship for that matter.
My understanding is that all of these are to be published by ADB. They cannot licence the star fleet univers (their alternate military trek universe) to anyone else to publish. Paramount lets them use Federation/Klingon/Romulan, etc... but they cannot then sub-license that material willy nilly without paramounts permission which they won't get, so anything that has that meterial can only be published by ADB. They can themselves pay for the license to publish GURPS/D6 game engine, and the D20 open license lets them do a D20 product that requires the basic D20 rules from another D20 book that everybody already has.
It seems odd that they would do so many different systems (spreading themselves thin), but this is I think do to the fact that they now have their own in-house print on demand system. So when they make a new product for SFB, F&E, or PRIME DIRECTIVE, instead of having to print several thousand at an outside printer that will take them years to recoup on sales, they can print on their own equipment exactly how many copies they need. If their warehouse only has 5 copies left, and they sell 10, they can simply print out the 5 more needed, they don't have to come up with the cash to print another several thousand. So the problem of having unsold copies of each version really isn't a problem, they will only print as many as they can sell. If something doesn't sell, then they won't have money tied up sitting in printed product in the warehouse, the unsold stuff will have never been printed, so to speak.
This lets them do many more products. As noted on their website (a good place to go for more info), the background material (star fleet universe) will be essentially word for word from product to product and game to game. The material in the core book that was publised already for GURPS 3rd edition is being reused mostly word for word in the new GURPS 4th edition.
This same material will then be re-used again in the D20 version and again in the D6 version. So they take the existing book, rip out the GURPS rules and insert the D20 rules. Then do the same for D6.
So GURPS Klingons that was printed will have the GURPS 3rd stuff removed, GURPS 4th stuff inserted, and reprinted. (When GURPS went to 4th edition all the 3rd stuff stopped selling, so they have to update to 4th, hence the delay in new stuff last year since the 4th edition announcement). Then they will take GURPS Klingons, remove all GURPS rules, and insert D20 classes/feats/whatever in place of the GURPS stats/advantages/disadvantages/etc... and have D20 Klingons.
When a new product is done (the upcoming GURPS romulans), they will publish it for GURPS 4th edition, then remove the GURPS components, insert the D20 components, and leave the majority of the text (which is just background material) the same.
Since the majority of material in most of the products is background material, this just gets reused and only needs to be written once. This is a benefit of ADB's practice of making sure everything published for their game systems (Star Fleet Battles, Card Game, Role Playing Game, Federation and Empire) is (beyond the scale of each game) consistent with everything else published in their universe. Other trek publications only seem to be consistent until the next episode that contradicts it. :)
Since there is very little in the way of trek RPGs out there now, I guess they are taking the opportunity to get their trek universe out there in whatever format people want it. People who didn't buy GURPS PD because it was GURPS will be able to get D20 or D6 if they want. If they like regular trek and not the star fleet universe version, well, still can't help you there. :) (Of course the flat-headed klingons have been explained...) but you can basic background with they system you like and then modify/customize to your hearts content, which is what most people do anyway.
I don't know how well this multiple RPG system plan will work for them, but with their ability to print as little or as much of a given product as they need, if it fails they don't lose their company or license or much money, they just continue doing anything that is selling, and keep doing SFB/F&E and such as always.
I guess the way they are thinking is that they are not selling GURPS or D20 or D6, (and thus competing with themselves) they are selling their version of the trek universe. (this is the part that will be the same book to book). They create this once, then make it available in GURPS flavor or D20 flavor or D6 flavor.
So instead of printing 6000 (or whatever number) copies of each variant, resulting in tons of books that won't sell, they only print as much of each flavor as is necessary.
The different systems are a way to get thier products into the hands of more people than if they stuck with one system. There will be some flowover of sales from these RPGs to their other games since the background is consistent for all of them.
If you are role-playing and get interested in starship combat, SFB gives you lots more info that is consistent with the RPG material, and if you wan't to know more about how many Fed constitution class cruisers are running around the Federation in a given year of the General War, Federation and Empire gives you the militaries of each race in that scale in a manner that is consistent with the other games. The Role playing game introduced their concept of a Prime Team (elite landing party good at combat/science/diplomacy/first contact), and there are rules for Prime Teams in SFB for use in transporter raids in space combat, and there are rules for Prime Teams in F&E for use in starting rebellions on captured planets and stealing enemy war plans.
The concept of multiple game systems with the same background as been the method behind their madness for a long time now, and I guess they are just extending that to multiple RPG systems. Same background, play at whatever scale and with whatever rules you prefer.
You can take Federation and Empire which shows the war and ship positions of Feds/Klingons/Roms/ etc across known space during the 18 year long general war, break one battle down and use Star Fleet Battles to show that battle in every detail, and then use your favorite RPG system to game out the boarding party actions of a marine squad attempting to kidnap the Romulan Ambassador to the Klingons off the bridge of the enemy ship. Well, if you had lots of time on your hands anyway... :)
Nick
The fact that they have print on demand capability goes a long way toward explaining how they plan to make this business model work.
With POD, they only have to print as many copies as they need at any time, so they don't have to worry about massive print runs that may not sell. They take in their orders from the distributors like Alliance, and individual game/comic stores, and only print that many copies. No risk... it's all profit.
Nice.
It also means that everything will be paperback color covers, with black and white interiors, but it means they have many more options of products to do than the otherwise could using regular out of house printers.
This sounds pretty cool to me. I seem to understand d20 better than GURPS, and this sounds like a great excuse to try d6 again. I have some WEGWars books and I guess a d6 Indiana Jones book, but haven't really looked at any new d6 stuff since WEG's last SW book (Special Edition sourcebook, I think).
I wonder how many individuals will buy the same book for more than one system. I think I'll at least wind up with the corebook for each system (of the three, anyway). It would be nice if each of the three had kind of a different flavor, though. I guess the d20 ones would have different universey material attached to stats, like names for characters of each race?
I guess they get more customers by getting different ones for each system, and maybe they are planning on some total geeks like me getting at least some of the books in multiple versions. If I were to limit myself to one system at this point, it may be d20, but I guess that would require me to also use my D&D books whereas the GURPS version requires no such thing. The only PD books I have so far are the PD1 core book and the first GPD corebook, maybe it's a good thing I don't have the second one yet, but if all the GURPS stuff comes outr first and I get around to the store in a timely manner, I'll get the GURPS versions at least, but hey, at the rate I've been going, I guess different release dates for different systems won't make a difference, and I may pick up whatever version I find first.
I don't know anything about Storyteller or Champions. I think I'll wait and see about them, but if I had to say now, I'd say I'd leave them alone.
There were a small handful of PD products for GURPS3 in not a very long time, and now they are printing the same ones for GURPS4 and doing new ones also for GURPS4. But yes, the GURPS4 versions are completely redone. And then there are the previous years when they used their own system.
I guess these developments aren't going to lead to d20TrueTrek or anything. Too bad.
I Never Actually Played SFB, but I did buy some of those products. Too complicated, so there's nothing for me to do with them, unlike RPG books. I do appreciate having F&E though.
It would be too bad if SFRPGs didappeared mostly or all together, but at least I've been warming up to the fantasy ones. Hopefully at least Traveller will survive.
How can you have a d20SW corebook for episodes one I and II but not III? I agree it would be much better never to have updated it for II, but since thay did, it just wouldn't be right not to do III!
I believe SFU books have used the words star trek (in lowercase letters) but only in specifying that that is what it is not. Or maybe this was just the note about the next generation not being involved. Maybe diversifying PD will bring them more SFBers?
I think it would be cool to have a new SGRPG using d20M instead of Spycraft. I still haven't bought the one there is yet, but I keep wanting to,even without having Spycraft.
I think I'd be more interested in d20Past if it was ancient and/ or medieval times, or at least included them, especially ancient, and kept completely historical (by that I mean no Fantasy). I have d20Modern but not d20Future yet.
Just came back from the SFU board.
At least the d6 one will be selfcontained.
It will be fun to be able to compare Vulcans to Elves, use the stats for one as a new race or subrace in the other universe, blend the stats, use Fantasy Andorians, have a better starting point for homebrew d20TrueTrek, crossover Star Wars with Star Trek, I guess even involve Star Gate in the mix, Babylon5, more easily convert PD to Coda and then Icon, wow.
I think it'd be cool if d6PD is closer to the old WEGWars game than the current d6 stuff.
What if they somehow found out which elements of the SFU were more popular with the fans of each system, or worked best in each system, and did the sourcebooks in whichever system fit best, at least at first. Hee hee! What if... they did their own fantasy setting using races based on SFU! But would there be much point if they only used their own creations? I'd be interested anyway...
I guess we ain't gonna see any official FASAPD, IconPD, or CodaPD. :p
It's not that complicated. Granted, it's more of a wargame than a simple boardgame (compared to BattleTech). Most of my all-nighters in my heydays attributed to SFB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cochrane
If the books are self-contained, that's good. Not many consumers are willing to pay for unnecesary pages of other systems' material. You can only go so far with dual- or multi-stats products, usually where the flavor text (or "fluff") takes center stage over the relevant game information.
It will be interesting to see what they do with Classes in PD20. Would it look similar to Coda, with classes for professions like diplomat and merchant, and a starship officer class divided into Prime Team, Marine, etc? Maybe Starship Officer wouldn't be divided up?
I take it the Bucket o'Dice aspect of d6 won't be seen as much of a problem?
I wouldn't have thought multistatting would be acceptable to the licensors, but apparantly it would. It would be interesting if they do some multistat books in which they make it particularly easy to mix and match rules for different aspects of the game.
Someone over there (someone who's here too?) seems to think CodaPD might be a possibility, which I think would be great, all the easier to blend PD with TrueTrek.
I guess the thing with SFB is it seemed to take too long to do too little.
Only if they apply the 32-impulse rule for personal combat. LOL! :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Cochrane
While I personally prefer d20 Modern class format, I think they'd rather do class-by-archetype, which is what most Player's Handbook owners are used to (there is no getting around that traditional convention).
I, for one, am really pumped about the new D6 version- I've been playing D6 in one form or another for years now, and if they can get phaser damage right, they've got the perfect Trek-like RPG...
From the discussions at the SFU boards, it sounds like PDHero might be a possibility, thus a new connection with "our own" Steve Long. That would be cool, but from what I've read of Hero, I think personally I'll pass on that particular system.
In case you haven't noticed, Jonathan M. Thompson of Battlefield Press is the designer of PD20.
He offered a tidbit of what to expect of PD20 in these forums:
http://www.starfleetgames.com/discus...tml?1111218450
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=125218&page=1
I have three including the core book.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Mappin
Also I have to mention that the PD20 book will be out a little later than expected. Most of my original manuscript didnt make it into the book as they were waiting for material from one of the other contributors.
So... what's the latest development news on PD20?
It has been released (Prime Directive D20 core book), but I haven't received my copy yet.
The D20 versions of Klingons, Romulans, and Federation race books are due out later this year.
Basically the GURPS book (of a given book, say Romulans) comes out, followed by the D20 version, followed by the D6 version. At least that is what their schedule looked like last time I saw it.
D6 core book is not out yet, but is coming.
Really? Are they using cloak marketing?Quote:
Originally Posted by nickgb
I jsut ordered my copy of PD:d20. I let you all know what I think when I get it and read it.
Anyone else have a copy yet?
Yes, got my copy yesterday in my favorite store in Paris :)
Regarding your Stargate comment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by REG
Me I'd like to see a non-d20 version. If I had a choice it would use a non-Level non-hit point system. We have been using Prime Time Adventures for it and that works OK. D20 was not right IMHO.
Meh. To each his or her own preference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eponymous
I've looked at the covers for D20 PD. wowow! I'm reconsidering not getting D20 Traveller ymm. I think I'm going to buy PD like I'm doing with Traveller- Pick the best from each version.
ex. D20 Prime Directive core book
D6 Romulans
GURPS Federation
Iron Crown Tholians
Hero Feline Empires
etc
:)
Now I just have to convince someone to put these in pdf :)
Have hear Hero is in the works but Iron Crown not a peep. I assume you are referring to the Spacemaster system, the futuristic version of Rolemaster. I will have to check the ADB boards about a Spacemaster version. It does make since Moljonir, Inc. DBA Iron Crown Enterprise is licensing Iron Crown and Rolemaster (and its other versions) from the company that bought up these assets when the original Iron Crown Enterprise went bankrupt.Quote:
Originally Posted by wow4556
Welcome, wow4556.